2007 Church Yearbook Ranks Largest Denominations

[PaperDoll]

From my never ending storehouse full of knowledge , I always believed that Jesus came and died for our sins. Once and for ALL. He took it upon him so we can be cleaned/saved. It is through Him that we are saved. Jesus said, "if any man comes unto me, I will in no wise cast out". I think people who know the Lord in their hearts, know when they sin and IMO, you don't have to go to any priest who they themselves are NOT PERFECT and they themselves can not forgive you of your sins.. If they could, we wouldn't need Christ. He died in vein:twocents: Hey, I'm here for you guys, just giving you my wonderful two cents worth of knowledge :crazy:

 

[southcitymom]

From my never ending storehouse full of knowledge , I always believed that Jesus came and died for our sins. Once and for ALL. He took it upon him so we can be cleaned/saved. It is through Him that we are saved. Jesus said, "if any man comes unto me, I will in no wise cast out". I think people who know the Lord in their hearts, know when they sin and IMO, you don't have to go to any priest who they themselves are NOT PERFECT and they themselves can not forgive you of your sins.. If they could, we wouldn't need Christ. He died in vein:twocents: Hey, I'm here for you guys, just giving you my wonderful two cents worth of knowledge :crazy:

Hey PD,

Thanks for your thoughts and I do think I see your point. Possibly, you and I come from divergent sensibilities because I don't think that Jesus died for my sins, but I was certainly taught that He did in many of the churches I attended and I understand that it is a common Chrisrtian belief.

I don't think the belief that Christ bought our salvation with His life necessarily conflicts with the practice of confession, a beautiful ritual wherein a person thoughtfully admits to and examines his/her specific wrongdoings with a spiritual leader.

From my own path: one of the things that I did regularly when I was using drugs is steal. I knew it was wrong and I didn't feel good about it. I would say to myself "that was wrong - you shouldn't do it again." I would even ask for forgiveness - flawed as I was/am, I did have a belief in and relationship with God. But my own silent discussions with myself did little to assist me in reforming this behavior. Did Christ's death on the cross erase this sin for me even though I continued to repeat it? Hardly.

There came a point in my journey when I was able to honestly confess my stealing ways to someone else. There was, for me, a reformative and transformative power in the vocalization of this sin to another that was missing when I simply "admitted" it to myself. The person who heard my confession was able to remind me that God still loved me, warts and all, and to lead me in the proper direction towards real healing and change and a closer more trusting relationship with God.

There is ancient spiritual wisdom in the concept that our secrets keep us sick. When I miss the mark and don't admit it to anyone other than myself, I'm keeping a secret, and I'm more likely to rationalize, justify, manipulate or wish away the consequences of my negative actions the next time I'm tempted to act on them. Therefore, I'm more likely to repeat them (ie, sin again!).

I'm not saying that confession always leads to an immediate change in behavior. I'm just saying that it is a very valuable spiritual tool. Even if Christ did die for our sins, I am sure that He's counting on us not to make mockery of that sacrifice by continuing to act like wretched little demons. I'm sure He would encourage us to use every tool we are given to live an examined life and to evolve upwards!

 

[PaperDoll]

There is a scripture that says, and I may not have it word for word so FORGIVE ME please.. hehe "confess your sins to one another and you will be healed" What I believe that scripture is saying is sometimes we need to vent because things will eat away at us and it's nice to have someone you can vent with and not be judged (hopefully)...

 

[southcitymom]

There is a scripture that says, and I may not have it word for word so FORGIVE ME please.. hehe "confess your sins to one another and you will be healed" What I believe that scripture is saying is sometimes we need to vent because things will eat away at us and it's nice to have someone you can vent with and not be judged (hopefully)...

I can't remember the verse either, but I know the one you are talking about!

 

[Maral]

From my never ending storehouse full of knowledge , I always believed that Jesus came and died for our sins. Once and for ALL. He took it upon him so we can be cleaned/saved. It is through Him that we are saved. Jesus said, "if any man comes unto me, I will in no wise cast out". I think people who know the Lord in their hearts, know when they sin and IMO, you don't have to go to any priest who they themselves are NOT PERFECT and they themselves can not forgive you of your sins.. If they could, we wouldn't need Christ. He died in vein:twocents: Hey, I'm here for you guys, just giving you my wonderful two cents worth of knowledge :crazy:

Hi PaperDoll,
It is not the priest themselves who are forgiving sins. The priest is just an instrument of God who is mediating God's forgiveness.

 

[PaperDoll]

Oh ok, so the priest is just the middle man... hehe :hand:


ETA: uh oh, here comes DK, I can feel it... :crazy:

 

[sandraladeda]

IM, if you truely believed that you had not committed a sin, you wouldn't have a sin to confess.

I think the tricky part of this sort of thinking is that we can rationalize away some of our bad acts. As an example, I can have an affair with the mailman and rationalize that my husband has neglected my needs, so I am justified in seeking love elsewhere. Or, I can do something crappy to my neighbor, and justify it by saying they had it coming to them. If I invent my own morality, or to say it another way, "create my own truth", pretty soon we are all walking around with our "own truth" and doing as we please. Voila! Nothing to confess!

imo

 

[Dark Knight]

I think the tricky part of this sort of thinking is that we can rationalize away some of our bad acts. As an example, I can have an affair with the mailman and rationalize that my husband has neglected my needs, so I am justified in seeking love elsewhere. Or, I can do something crappy to my neighbor, and justify it by saying they had it coming to them. If I invent my own morality, or to say it another way, "create my own truth", pretty soon we are all walking around with our "own truth" and doing as we please. Voila! Nothing to confess!

imo

Bingo!!!!

 

[Nova]

I think the tricky part of this sort of thinking is that we can rationalize away some of our bad acts. As an example, I can have an affair with the mailman and rationalize that my husband has neglected my needs, so I am justified in seeking love elsewhere. Or, I can do something crappy to my neighbor, and justify it by saying they had it coming to them. If I invent my own morality, or to say it another way, "create my own truth", pretty soon we are all walking around with our "own truth" and doing as we please. Voila! Nothing to confess!

imo

I'm sure that's not what Maral means, Sandra. Sure, we all manufacture excuses for our behavior (e.g., "my husband neglects my needs"), but by its very nature, an excuse actually reaffirms the wrongness of the act being excused. I.e., if adultery isn't wrong, then why are you justifying it by blaming your neglectful husband? If the crappy thing you did to your obnoxious neighbor isn't bad, then how can it be just punishment for the neighbor's obnoxiousness?

(This isn't to say individuals won't rationalize their bad acts, because of course they will. But they do that whether morality is rigidly or thoughtfully defined.)

Birth control (excluding abortion) would be a better subject for this discussion, because it's hard to say who is harmed. And if a Catholic truly believes preventing unwanted children (in an already overcrowded world) is the right thing to do, it's hard for me to see how s/he will be distanced from God by doing so, regardless of the Pope's dicta.

And that's what sin is, yes? An act that distances one from God, not just mere "rule breaking."

 

[narlacat]

I think the tricky part of this sort of thinking is that we can rationalize away some of our bad acts. As an example, I can have an affair with the mailman and rationalize that my husband has neglected my needs, so I am justified in seeking love elsewhere. Or, I can do something crappy to my neighbor, and justify it by saying they had it coming to them. If I invent my own morality, or to say it another way, "create my own truth", pretty soon we are all walking around with our "own truth" and doing as we please. Voila! Nothing to confess!

imo

Yes, that's it!
That's how it works in my world- we all create our own reality

 

[narlacat]

I'm sure that's not what Maral means, Sandra. Sure, we all manufacture excuses for our behavior (e.g., "my husband neglects my needs"), but by its very nature, an excuse actually reaffirms the wrongness of the act being excused. I.e., if adultery isn't wrong, then why are you justifying it by blaming your neglectful husband? If the crappy thing you did to your obnoxious neighbor isn't bad, then how can it be just punishment for the neighbor's obnoxiousness?

(This isn't to say individuals won't rationalize their bad acts, because of course they will. But they do that whether morality is rigidly or thoughtfully defined.)

Birth control (excluding abortion) would be a better subject for this discussion, because it's hard to say who is harmed. And if a Catholic truly believes preventing unwanted children (in an already overcrowded world) is the right thing to do, it's hard for me to see how s/he will be distanced from God by doing so, regardless of the Pope's dicta.

And that's what sin is, yes? An act that distances one from God, not just mere "rule breaking."

Sin, in my world, is something that doesnt sit right, something that I may do that isn't in line with being true to myself...if I am being true to myself I am not sinning
eg If I steal- I feel bad- I am not in line with my true self- therefore you could look at it like stealing is a sin, sin seems a harsh word I dont use that word much
When I am not in line with my true self I am distancing myself from God ( or however you want to put it, God is just easiest lol)
I feel disconnected when I 'sin' basically

 

[LovelyPigeon]

There is a scripture that says, and I may not have it word for word so FORGIVE ME please.. hehe "confess your sins to one another and you will be healed" What I believe that scripture is saying is sometimes we need to vent because things will eat away at us and it's nice to have someone you can vent with and not be judged (hopefully)...

You're probably thinking of James 5:15-16:

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. (NIV)

The context sounds as though sin has made people sick, and by confession and prayer the sickness can be healed and the sin forgiven.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Jesus said, "if any man comes unto me, I will in no wise cast out". I think people who know the Lord in their hearts, know when they sin and IMO, you don't have to go to any priest who they themselves are NOT PERFECT and they themselves can not forgive you of your sins.. If they could, we wouldn't need Christ. He died in vein

Spoken like a true Protestant! The need for a priest to take confessions in order for sins to be forgiven is a basic difference in the beliefs of RC and Protestants.

Protestants believe that the individual believer has a personal relationship with God through Jesus that does not require any other intermediary.

 

[Dark Knight]

Oh ok, so the priest is just the middle man... hehe :hand:


ETA: uh oh, here comes DK, I can feel it... :crazy:

:slap: :slap: :slap:

The priest represents the authority of the Church to hear sins for forgive them, but the Church admits God makes the final decision, as even a priest cannot know the person's heart. But via Apostolic succession, where Jesus told His Apostles to go and hear one another's sins and forgive them, is where that Sacrament comes from. Jesus told His Apostles to hear people's sins. And futhermore said we are to confess to one another our sins. Catholics can certainly ask for forgiveness in prayer to our Lord as well. Another advantage of the Confessional is that the priest will give us ways to avoid repeating those sins and to help us towards holiness via prayer or other activity. And he will also direct us to make up for any damage caused by our sins to the person we sinned against.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

... via Apostolic succession, where Jesus told His Apostles to go and hear one another's sins and forgive them, is where that Sacrament comes from. Jesus told His Apostles to hear people's sins. And futhermore said we are to confess to one another our sins.

Jesus also told disciples (many more disciples than apostles) and those who gathered to hear Jesus teach Luke 6:37-38:

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (NIV)

There's no apostolic succession there, but only an individual responsibility.

 

[southcitymom]

:slap: :slap: :slap:

The priest represents the authority of the Church to hear sins for forgive them, but the Church admits God makes the final decision, as even a priest cannot know the person's heart. But via Apostolic succession, where Jesus told His Apostles to go and hear one another's sins and forgive them, is where that Sacrament comes from. Jesus told His Apostles to hear people's sins. And futhermore said we are to confess to one another our sins. Catholics can certainly ask for forgiveness in prayer to our Lord as well. Another advantage of the Confessional is that the priest will give us ways to avoid repeating those sins and to help us towards holiness via prayer or other activity. And he will also direct us to make up for any damage caused by our sins to the person we sinned against.

Well-stated. 12-step programs shadow much of what you speak of here with steps 6 and 7 (We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character and We humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings) and then 8 and 9 (We made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all and We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others).

Though 12-step programs are entirely non-religious in nature, they certainly make use of some of the best teachings and practices of Catholicism/Christianity. Such wisdom is, indeed, ancient and time-tested.

 

[PaperDoll]

You're probably thinking of James 5:15-16:

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. (NIV)

The context sounds as though sin has made people sick, and by confession and prayer the sickness can be healed and the sin forgiven.

Thanks LP :blowkiss: Yes, that is the scripture I was thinking of.

In bold, that makes sense to me

 

[Dark Knight]

Jesus also told disciples (many more disciples than apostles) and those who gathered to hear Jesus teach Luke 6:37-38:

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (NIV)

There's no apostolic succession there, but only an individual responsibility.

That was the Sermon on the Mount spoken to the general public. It wasn't part of His instructions to the Apostles when establishing His church.

 

[sandraladeda]

I'm sure that's not what Maral means, Sandra. Sure, we all manufacture excuses for our behavior (e.g., "my husband neglects my needs"), but by its very nature, an excuse actually reaffirms the wrongness of the act being excused. I.e., if adultery isn't wrong, then why are you justifying it by blaming your neglectful husband? If the crappy thing you did to your obnoxious neighbor isn't bad, then how can it be just punishment for the neighbor's obnoxiousness?

(This isn't to say individuals won't rationalize their bad acts, because of course they will. But they do that whether morality is rigidly or thoughtfully defined.)

Birth control (excluding abortion) would be a better subject for this discussion, because it's hard to say who is harmed. And if a Catholic truly believes preventing unwanted children (in an already overcrowded world) is the right thing to do, it's hard for me to see how s/he will be distanced from God by doing so, regardless of the Pope's dicta.

And that's what sin is, yes? An act that distances one from God, not just mere "rule breaking."

Boy did you hit the nail on the head - sin is an act that distances one from God.

In your birth control example, you give an example that does rationalize the use of birth control; namely, one person's belief that it's okay because no one is harmed, and it is preventing unwanted children in an already overcrowded world. In this case, one is depending on his or her own understanding of how things should be. I distance myself from God when I say "my understanding comes ahead of your will".
imo

 

[Maral]

Spoken like a true Protestant! The need for a priest to take confessions in order for sins to be forgiven is a basic difference in the beliefs of RC and Protestants.

Protestants believe that the individual believer has a personal relationship with God through Jesus that does not require any other intermediary.

Catholics also have a very personal relationshop with God. And that relationship is enhanced through the Sacraments that Christ instituted.