2007 Church Yearbook Ranks Largest Denominations

[southcitymom]

Boy did you hit the nail on the head - sin is an act that distances one from God.

In your birth control example, you give an example that does rationalize the use of birth control; namely, one person's belief that it's okay because no one is harmed, and it is preventing unwanted children in an already overcrowded world. In this case, one is depending on his or her own understanding of how things should be. I distance myself from God when I say "my understanding comes ahead of your will".
imo

One of the most difficult things for me and for many others I know is knowing the difference between what is my will and what is God's will. With many issues, God's will seems clear. With other issues (the birth control question being one of them), not so much. That's why it helps to have spiritual guides and an open mind.

 

[Nova]

Boy did you hit the nail on the head - sin is an act that distances one from God.

In your birth control example, you give an example that does rationalize the use of birth control; namely, one person's belief that it's okay because no one is harmed, and it is preventing unwanted children in an already overcrowded world. In this case, one is depending on his or her own understanding of how things should be. I distance myself from God when I say "my understanding comes ahead of your will".
imo

Rationalization as opposed to what? Somebody said "don't do it"? Sorry, but you have to establish the harm of the act in question before you get to call the reasoning for it "rationalization." In the other examples I gave, I believe the harm is self-evident, but we can certainly define it if you like.

If Free Will is simply a matter of slavish obedience to arbitrary rules, then it isn't very free, is it? On the other hand, if Free Will demands that we engage with our own morality and establish criteria for right conduct, then Free Will might be worth something.

 

[southcitymom]

Rationalization as opposed to what? Somebody said "don't do it"? Sorry, but you have to establish the harm of the act in question before you get to call the reasoning for it "rationalization." In the other examples I gave, I believe the harm is self-evident, but we can certainly define it if you like.

If Free Will is simply a matter of slavish obedience to arbitrary rules, then it isn't very free, is it? On the other hand, if Free Will demands that we engage with our own morality and establish criteria for right conduct, then Free Will might be worth something.

Thanks for taking the time to sum up my feelings...excellent post.

 

[PaperDoll]

One of the most difficult things for me and for many others I know is knowing the difference between what is my will and what is God's will. With many issues, God's will seems clear. With other issues (the birth control question being one of them), not so much. That's why it helps to have spiritual guides and an open mind.

Oh my, I totally understand that one..

 

[Nova]

Thanks for taking the time to sum up my feelings...excellent post.

Thanks. But that post may keep me out of the Roman Catholic Church forever!

 

[Nova]

Catholics also have a very personal relationshop with God. And that relationship is enhanced through the Sacraments that Christ instituted.

That's very hard for Protestants (at least Evangelicals) to understand. I pretty much had to leave the Protestant church (for other reasons) and then get to know a lot of Catholics before I began to glimpse the truth of your post.

 

[Dark Knight]

Rationalization as opposed to what? Somebody said "don't do it"? Sorry, but you have to establish the harm of the act in question before you get to call the reasoning for it "rationalization." In the other examples I gave, I believe the harm is self-evident, but we can certainly define it if you like.

If Free Will is simply a matter of slavish obedience to arbitrary rules, then it isn't very free, is it? On the other hand, if Free Will demands that we engage with our own morality and establish criteria for right conduct, then Free Will might be worth something.

Free will simply means God won't physically force you to obey His rules, but there is a consquence for not doing so when we die. Sin is NEVER an acceptable choice even if we have the freedom to CHOOSE it.

 

[Nova]

Free will simply means God won't physically force you to obey His rules, but there is a consequence for not doing so when we die. Sin is NEVER an acceptable choice even if we have the freedom to CHOOSE it.

That sounds awfully like the "freedom" afforded those who live under totalitarian regimes, where one is "free to obey the party/dictator/military junta or be executed for disobedience." Quite the freedom, that.

As far as I'm concerned, as much evil is created through rigid and arbitrary morality as through convenient rationalization of morality. Maybe more, if history is any judge.

And there's no better example than telling poverty stricken, Third World people not to use birth control. Emphasis intentional. I realize the choice to use birth control or not is quite different for those who can afford whatever children they produce.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

That was the Sermon on the Mount spoken to the general public. It wasn't part of His instructions to the Apostles when establishing His church.

Exactly my point, DK.

 

[PaperDoll]

God does give us free will.. However, if a person truly loves the Lord, that person will want to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord. GULP... I guess I'm one of the Lords problem child .. I tend to not always listen and obey..

 

[narlacat]

That sounds awfully like the "freedom" afforded those who live under totalitarian regimes, where one is "free to obey the party/dictator/military junta or be executed for disobedience." Quite the freedom, that.

As far as I'm concerned, as much evil is created through rigid and arbitrary morality as through convenient rationalization of morality. Maybe more, if history is any judge.

And there's no better example than telling poverty stricken, Third World people not to use birth control. Emphasis intentional. I realize the choice to use birth control or not is quite different for those who can afford whatever children they produce.

Quite *chuckles

If God didn't want us to use our free will, God wouldn't have gave it to us.
It was a no strings attached deal, which means there's no rules- use it willy nilly if you want

The subject of Euthanasia came up for me the other day, a friend is terminally ill.
I had no idea where my country stood on the issue, so I googled

http://www.exitinternational.net/

I dont understand why Euthanasia isnt legal- this is the same as the abortion issue, who gives anyone the right to say what a person can and can't do with their own body.
Dying with dignity should be allowed to be an option.

 

[Nova]

God does give us free will.. However, if a person truly loves the Lord, that person will want to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord. GULP... I guess I'm one of the Lords problem child .. I tend to not always listen and obey..

In my view, PaperDoll, that's more of a tautology than anything that can be fairly called "free." If the point is mere obedience to a narrow, rigid code, then "freedom" is irrelevant and serves only as a handy excuse to absolve God from responsibility for evil. (I.e., everything good is God's will, everything else can be blamed on "free will.")

With true freedom comes actual responsibility (not just slavish capitulation) and, just as in a democracy, moral freedom is often difficult and messy.

 

[Nova]

I don't understand why Euthanasia isn't legal- this is the same as the abortion issue, who gives anyone the right to say what a person can and can't do with their own body.
Dying with dignity should be allowed to be an option.

Well, we need strict controls on assisted suicide, or every murderer will claim his victim asked for it.

Otherwise, I agree.

 

[southcitymom]

Quite *chuckles

If God didn't want us to use our free will, God wouldn't have gave it to us.
It was a no strings attached deal, which means there's no rules- use it willy nilly if you want

The subject of Euthanasia came up for me the other day, a friend is terminally ill.
I had no idea where my country stood on the issue, so I googled

http://www.exitinternational.net/

I dont understand why Euthanasia isnt legal- this is the same as the abortion issue, who gives anyone the right to say what a person can and can't do with their own body.
Dying with dignity should be allowed to be an option.

Hi Narlacat,

I'm with you on the euthanasia issue though regulations are needed. Along those lines, it always cracks me up when I read laws about suicide being illegal. I mean if you're successful, who cares. If you're not successful, you probably need help that jail time isn't going to give you. Who thinks such a law up? I doubt it's God!

 

[PaperDoll]

Ok, if it's not "free" will then you have a will. You have a will to either believe or not believe.. You have a will to act or not act. God does not force us into anything and if He does, you probably won't even know it.. hehe :hand:

 

[Nova]

Ok, if it's not "free" will then you have a will. You have a will to either believe or not believe.. You have a will to act or not act. God does not force us into anything and if He does, you probably won't even know it.. hehe :hand:

Nicely put. I agree on that much.

 

[PaperDoll]

Nicely put. I agree on that much.

THANK you, Nova.. I thought it up all by myself.... hehe

 

[narlacat]

Ok, if it's not "free" will then you have a will. You have a will to either believe or not believe.. You have a will to act or not act. God does not force us into anything and if He does, you probably won't even know it.. hehe :hand:

Hehe (and hehe on your last post too)

God is amazingly clever- that's why there is more than one way home- God doesnt expect us to all arrive the same way

 

[IrishMist]

Hehe (and hehe on your last post too)

God is amazingly clever- that's why there is more than one way home- God doesnt expect us to all arrive the same way

Amen to that, Narla! :clap:

 

[Dark Knight]

Free will means we are allowed to choose to commit murder, steal, commit adultery, rape, lie, cheat, use His name in vain, and so forth. It does NOT mean there aren't consequences for making those choices, including Hell if we do not repent. That's why the "why give us free will and then punish us for using it" logic is wrong. We could rationalize anything we do then, which is why some people lean on that logic so heavily. It really is as simple as that, folks.