2009.03.14 Geraldo - Dr. Baden, Slip or Not on Chloroform In Caylee's hair test?

[RR0004]

We need evidence that the defense's "second autopsy" was more than a quick in/out at the funeral home by Dr. Spitz, and that the State has ever given the defense any samples for their own testing.

Anybody got those?

Hopefully more stuff will get "leaked" soon (j/k). I will find it very odd if they go to use the "faulty science" defense (saw them attacking the CSI the other day...they WILL travel that road) if they haven't done their own. But, on the other hand, the burden is on the State.

 

[Never4GetCaylee]

If Casey was chloroforming Caylee on a reg basis, the inhalation method makes no sense since it needs to be administered every 15-20 minutes to continue "sleep".
How is chloroform used if taken orally? Will it induce a longer sleep?
How would anyone mask the strong taste and prevent mouth and throat burns? I think if it was used, it was only used one fatal time.
She could have been using Benadryl or other drugs to put Caylee to sleep on party nights....I can't buy the chloroforming her on a reg basis.

ITA agree. I've never understood why people think Casey went to all the trouble of chloroform. It is not easy at all to make or even that easy to buy already made. It has been said a million times that Casey was/is lazy, so why would she use chloroform when there are so many other, much easier, things she could use to put Caylee to sleep?

I think chloroform MAY have been used in an attempt to clean the trunk, it is a powerful cleaning agent/solvent, something George probably knew, but I really don't believe KC used it on Caylee.

 

[Never4GetCaylee]

Yes, I believe discovery works both ways...that's about as much as I got.
But, lying, well in a courtroom that wouldn't surprise me. Think about it, Casey says she's innocent...can you get a bigger whopper than that? But, I don't think lying, twisting, misleading is the true issue here. I think you may be wondering if they can "manufacture" evidence (?) I would trust the SA would never be involved with saying they have something when they do not. The defense can blah, blah, blah till the cows come home. They'll have to either put up or shut up IMO.

No, the defense cannot knowlingly, out and out lie, nor can he suborn perjury. If a defense attorney knows his client is guilty or his client confessed to him and the client insists on testifying/taking the stand, the defense attorney can only let the client tell their story, give a narrative, but will not question him or support the testimony as that would be suborning perjury, which can get you disbarred.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Hopefully more stuff will get "leaked" soon (j/k). I will find it very odd if they go to use the "faulty science" defense (saw them attacking the CSI the other day...they WILL travel that road) if they haven't done their own. But, on the other hand, the burden is on the State.

The defense can attack the scientific methodology and interpretations of the State without necessarily performing their own tests.

 

[PattyCake]

The defense can attack the scientific methodology and interpretations of the State without necessarily performing their own tests.

They can attempt to, but Jury's today are far more educated and expect scientific proof to back up any claim they attempt to make in a courtroom. I for one think the defense would be fools for trying to tear down a hair chemical analysis without any scientist on their side.

This 'slip up' is bad bad bad for the defense.

 

[Leila]

I really hope someone else watched Geraldo last night and saw this too. It's driving me crazy. I think we may have a "true" bombshell. Or else I am crazy and everyone else has heard about this and I missed it. But I know if it has come out before or is not new, here is the place to post and find out.

Did anyone watch Geraldo last night, where he did the special on Anna Nicole Smith? He had on Dr. Baden and Dr. Perper to discuss the autopsy and the toxicology examination of Anna Nicole. Geraldo had asked Dr. Perper if he had done hair screening of Anna Nicole to get her drug history, as it stays in the hair and you can get a lot of information from the hair. Dr. Perper said no, because it's totally irrelevant.
When Geraldo heard him say it was irrelevant, he was stunned and told Perper to hold on. He then asked Dr. Baden, Is it totally irrelevant, if a drug overdose is in play, is it totally irrelevant to test her hair, in the way they tested, uh, poor Caylee Anthony's, the baby's hair? And Dr. Baden says, Uh, yea where they found chloroform in the baby's hair.
He then went on and answered the questions about Anna. I had taped this and rewound at least five times to get the exact words he said to get it right.

Ok, here's my question, did we see anywhere yet in discovery that they found chloroform in Caylee's hair? I don't think that has been released anywhere I've read. So, Me's thinking, Old, Dr. B, may have just opened foot and inserted directly yo mouth. What do you think? I even rewound it like 5 times, just to make sure I got it in context. It certainly sounds to me like he knew, as fact, there was chloroform in Caylee's hair. If that is true, that means, Caylee had ingested Chloroform at some time. I don't think just being in the trunk with it would show up in her hair follicles.

Can anyone tell me what can all me told from the hair testing, IF it was in fact in her hair test? Will it show if it was more than one time or how much? Or will it just show as in her system?

I thought this was big enough to make a thread and also quite a "bombshell" IMO, if this is true and hasn't been out yet.

Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot as this came out a long time ago and I didn't hear it.


Video added: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fZsd--Y2Hk

I'm so glad you brought this up!!! I watched Geraldo twice last night, to be sure I heard it right. He did, in fact say, "Uh, yea where they found chloroform in the baby's hair."

I heard Dr. Baden say that, and he stated it as a fact, not any sort of speculation. He stated it clearly as if it were a known fact. I knew I hadn't heard any mention of finding chloroform in Caylee's hair, but thought.........maybe I missed something.There's so many threads, so many pages of documents, it would be easy to miss something.

With his wife a member of the defense team, Dr. Baden likely has access to information in the case, or as spoken to other forensic experts who've seen the reports.

I'm only on the first page of this thread, so someone may have already mentioned this, but Dr. Baden stated that hair grows about a half-inch per month. Six inches of hair is equal to a year of hair growth. A medical examiner can test each half-inch of a strand of hair and find the level of a drugs ingested that month. Testing each half-inch of hair can show a pattern of drug use.

Lets say.......there were levels of chloroform in Caylee's hair over a four-month period and none prior to that. That would indicate that Casey started drugging Caylee with chloroform four months prior to her death.

 

[Baznme]

The defense can attack the scientific methodology and interpretations of the State without necessarily performing their own tests.

Of course they can but it doesn't make for a very strong case in their favor if they don't.

 

[Hot Dogs]

They can attempt to, but Jury's today are far more educated and expect scientific proof to back up any claim they attempt to make in a courtroom. I for one think the defense would be fools for trying to tear down a hair chemical analysis without any scientist on their side.

This 'slip up' is bad bad bad for the defense.

Of course they will use a scientist witness. It's an expert telling the jury that the other expert has no business drawing the conclusions that they did.

Add to that... "You guys destroy your bench notes? What kind of a crazy policy is that?"

 

[Bittiness39]

Maybe the defense let this slip so they can perpetuate the illusion that RM did it. Reasonable doubt that KC didn't do it. Blah blah blah. I don't think it will work at all. RM's motive for drugging and ultimately killing Caylee would be what? And if KC was drugging that poor child for months with chloroform or whatever...why didn't the grandparents have a clue? It is clear that the A's either had a clue and didn't care or don't have a clue and never will...but I still find it hard to believe that they wouldn't notice any affects of drugging on Caylee.
Is it possible that Caylee died in the trunk...that she (KC) duct taped her mouth shut...left out an open container of chemicals in the trunk next to the baby...that after a few minutes would incapacitate her? Just a sad one of many sad thoughts.

 

[debbie0604]

The first step is to have Baden confirm that he said what we think he said. I want to know if he said chloroform and hair.

"Dog n Suds" (drive in restaurant) is not Dog in Suds, but it sure sounds like it when you hear somebody say it.

I'm a transcriptionist (for pathologists), and I played this several times and I heard Dr. Baden say "yeah, I think where they found chloroform in the baby's hair, I think that it may be irrelevant for cause of death because you're looking for (inaudible (Geraldo talking over him) in the body, but I would take exception in the sense that it's important because it gives a history of the drug taking, how to evaluate the drugs she took (they are talking about ANS)......" (I transcribed this from the YouTube link).

Also I have not read in the discovery doc any information that chloroform was found in Caylee's hair. This information has not been released. However, I believe that her hair has been tested. I wonder if the bottle with the syringe that was found in the bag with the remains perhaps contained something? I know that 10 ml of ingested chloroform is fatal. Also from my research, pool shock, bleach and acetone can make chloroform. (I sure hope my computer is never taken by police, it would be difficult to explain why I was reseaching this). I'm sure you all feel the same way.

 

[chefmom]

ITA agree. I've never understood why people think Casey went to all the trouble of chloroform. It is not easy at all to make or even that easy to buy already made. It has been said a million times that Casey was/is lazy, so why would she use chloroform when there are so many other, much easier, things she could use to put Caylee to sleep?

I think chloroform MAY have been used in an attempt to clean the trunk, it is a powerful cleaning agent/solvent, something George probably knew, but I really don't believe KC used it on Caylee.

Wouldn't it be ironic if either CA or GA HAD cleaned the trunk with chloroform to try to help cover for KC, and then chloroform was found to be in the baby's hair, with neither of these being connected but both helping to put KC away for life? If that is the case and they used the chloro thinking they could get rid of any evidence in the trunk not knowing that this is exactly what KC had used to kill their grandchild, this would truly be fitting. Karma at its finest!

 

[lonetraveler]

I really hope someone else watched Geraldo last night and saw this too. It's driving me crazy. I think we may have a "true" bombshell. Or else I am crazy and everyone else has heard about this and I missed it. But I know if it has come out before or is not new, here is the place to post and find out.

Did anyone watch Geraldo last night, where he did the special on Anna Nicole Smith? He had on Dr. Baden and Dr. Perper to discuss the autopsy and the toxicology examination of Anna Nicole. Geraldo had asked Dr. Perper if he had done hair screening of Anna Nicole to get her drug history, as it stays in the hair and you can get a lot of information from the hair. Dr. Perper said no, because it's totally irrelevant.
When Geraldo heard him say it was irrelevant, he was stunned and told Perper to hold on. He then asked Dr. Baden, Is it totally irrelevant, if a drug overdose is in play, is it totally irrelevant to test her hair, in the way they tested, uh, poor Caylee Anthony's, the baby's hair? And Dr. Baden says, Uh, yea where they found chloroform in the baby's hair.
He then went on and answered the questions about Anna. I had taped this and rewound at least five times to get the exact words he said to get it right.

Ok, here's my question, did we see anywhere yet in discovery that they found chloroform in Caylee's hair? I don't think that has been released anywhere I've read. So, Me's thinking, Old, Dr. B, may have just opened foot and inserted directly yo mouth. What do you think? I even rewound it like 5 times, just to make sure I got it in context. It certainly sounds to me like he knew, as fact, there was chloroform in Caylee's hair. If that is true, that means, Caylee had ingested Chloroform at some time. I don't think just being in the trunk with it would show up in her hair follicles.

Can anyone tell me what can all me told from the hair testing, IF it was in fact in her hair test? Will it show if it was more than one time or how much? Or will it just show as in her system?

I thought this was big enough to make a thread and also quite a "bombshell" IMO, if this is true and hasn't been out yet.

Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot as this came out a long time ago and I didn't hear it.


Video added: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fZsd--Y2Hk

---
I heard this too and hoped that I would see this thread today when I logged on. Baden's face had the look like "Oh Sh**, I just screwed up".

 

[lonetraveler]

I'm a transcriptionist (for pathologists), and I played this several times and I heard Dr. Baden say "yeah, I think where they found chloroform in the baby's hair, I think that it may be irrelevant for cause of death because you're looking for (inaudible (Geraldo talking over him) in the body, but I would take exception in the sense that it's important because it gives a history of the drug taking, how to evaluate the drugs she took (they are talking about ANS)......" (I transcribed this from the YouTube link).

Also I have not read in the discovery doc any information that chloroform was found in Caylee's hair. This information has not been released. However, I believe that her hair has been tested. I wonder if the bottle with the syringe that was found in the bag with the remains perhaps contained something? I know that 10 ml of ingested chloroform is fatal. Also from my research, pool shock, bleach and acetone can make chloroform. (I sure hope my computer is never taken by police, it would be difficult to explain why I was reseaching this). I'm sure you all feel the same way.

---
Episode on CSI Miami last Mondy covered teenagers using pool cleaner and acetone to make chloroform.

 

[RR0004]

No, the defense cannot knowlingly, out and out lie, nor can he suborn perjury. If a defense attorney knows his client is guilty or his client confessed to him and the client insists on testifying/taking the stand, the defense attorney can only let the client tell their story, give a narrative, but will not question him or support the testimony as that would be suborning perjury, which can get you disbarred.

...and herein lies the crux of the matter. If the attorney knows the truth. If the attorney knows the client IS guilty then it's a totally different ball of wax...and in my opinion he/she would be foolish for allowing his client to testify. The burden is on the state. JB says his client is innocent...do you believe that is the "truth"? Casey will NEVER be called to testify on her behalf. My father (a criminal defense attorney) would always tell his clients...don't tell me you did it...I don't want to know.

 

[Bittiness39]

Wouldn't it be ironic if either CA or GA HAD cleaned the trunk with chloroform to try to help cover for KC, and then chloroform was found to be in the baby's hair, with neither of these being connected but both helping to put KC away for life? If that is the case and they used the chloro thinking they could get rid of any evidence in the trunk not knowing that this is exactly what KC had used to kill their grandchild, this would truly be fitting. Karma at its finest!

If they, the A's, helped KC at all...it would be poetic justice. If their "help" convicted her.

However, I don't believe that they helped (at least not with the cleaning of the trunk)...GA's statements to the investigators just rang very true...about the smell of death, thinking that possibly KC and Caylee were in there...in this one sense...I don't think that GA helped...however, I have always been skeptical of him asking for the effin' gas cans and coming only so far...and not seeing or smelling anything before KC thrusts the cans at him and runs off. To me, that is just odd. My parent(s) would have pushed past my rude self and seen the trunk and its contents. Especially if it smelled a certain way...I am not saying Caylee was in there at the time...just saying that how could you even come halfway up the side of a relatively small car and not smell it. Or maybe he was truly obsessed with those gas cans.

As far as chloroform for the cleanup...entirely more likely than consistently drugging a child with it repeatedly. I think the defense let this slip because they want to say 4 months before Caylee died (ie chloroform from that time frame) BECAUSE that was when RM and KC were "dating" and those chloroform searches were being performed. And yet...again, RM's motive would be what? He is involved with KC and therefore shady...? Was really so hung up on KC (she of the wonderful fidelity) that he planned to kill her kid out of some sick revenge and then carried it out...access to her car and house and all of that. Uhmm..no. Sorry Baden, Baez and company...unless the jury has swiss cheese for a brain...it won't fly. Shoulda taken a plea.

 

[RR0004]

---
Episode on CSI Miami last Mondy covered teenagers using pool cleaner and acetone to make chloroform.

Great the one night I decided to try out a new show. We do know how much Casey liked those CSI shows. (I never could understand why she ever said that!)

 

[RR0004]

If they, the A's, helped KC at all...it would be poetic justice. If their "help" convicted her.

However, I don't believe that they helped (at least not with the cleaning of the trunk)...GA's statements to the investigators just rang very true...about the smell of death, thinking that possibly KC and Caylee were in there...in this one sense...I don't think that GA helped...however, I have always been skeptical of him asking for the effin' gas cans and coming only so far...and not seeing or smelling anything before KC thrusts the cans at him and runs off. To me, that is just odd. My parent(s) would have pushed past my rude self and seen the trunk and its contents. Especially if it smelled a certain way...I am not saying Caylee was in there at the time...just saying that how could you even come halfway up the side of a relatively small car and not smell it. Or maybe he was truly obsessed with those gas cans.

As far as chloroform for the cleanup...entirely more likely than consistently drugging a child with it repeatedly. I think the defense let this slip because they want to say 4 months before Caylee died (ie chloroform from that time frame) BECAUSE that was when RM and KC were "dating" and those chloroform searches were being performed. And yet...again, RM's motive would be what? He is involved with KC and therefore shady...? Was really so hung up on KC (she of the wonderful fidelity) that he planned to kill her kid out of some sick revenge and then carried it out...access to her car and house and all of that. Uhmm..no. Sorry Baden, Baez and company...unless the jury has swiss cheese for a brain...it won't fly. Shoulda taken a plea.

Even Lee stated that car still smelled when he saw it. I would imagine if George used high powered chemicals on the car Lee would have mentioned THAT, not his rotten tale of ham.

 

[RR0004]

Maybe the defense let this slip so they can perpetuate the illusion that RM did it. Reasonable doubt that KC didn't do it. Blah blah blah. I don't think it will work at all. RM's motive for drugging and ultimately killing Caylee would be what? And if KC was drugging that poor child for months with chloroform or whatever...why didn't the grandparents have a clue? It is clear that the A's either had a clue and didn't care or don't have a clue and never will...but I still find it hard to believe that they wouldn't notice any affects of drugging on Caylee.
Is it possible that Caylee died in the trunk...that she (KC) duct taped her mouth shut...left out an open container of chemicals in the trunk next to the baby...that after a few minutes would incapacitate her? Just a sad one of many sad thoughts.

Didn't they find that part of the motion "moot" (requesting the screen shot)? I didn't get a chance to watch the hearing, but can anyone say why they ruled that...was it already agreed to?

 

[MomofBoys]

I want the media to run with this already! Surely there's some reporter out there that has already watched all the movies on HBO on Demand and could blog this instead.

The Badens will immediately claim it was a hypothetical. But even if they are planting a seed for an involuntary manslaughter charge defense, this went from planting a seed to potentially planting an orchard. Out of season.

 

[RR0004]

The defense can attack the scientific methodology and interpretations of the State without necessarily performing their own tests.

I agree...and if that's the best they've got...lots of luck.