2009.08.07 Emails between Oak Ridge and OCSO

Yeah other then making it herself the chloroform has always been one of those details in this case that baffles me. How did she get it, what was it used for, and a slew of other questions.

Science labs, industrial chemical holdings would have it. It's used to make R-22 which was a vehicle AC refrigerant which is now illegal to use or will be next year or something. My dad still had a case in his garage the pack rat he was.

It could be used as a cleaning agent but why would you use something as dangerous and hard to get as chloroform when you could use something else. The concentrations were I believe higher then an accidental mixing of cleaning products.

In terms of incapacitating someone there are easier ways especially with children....

Sorry to go off on the chloroform tangent it's just one of the few details that truly has me baffled.

The defense can state this very thing in court - how would Casey get her hands on this? But chloroform was not the cause of death.
 
Oh, good point. Didn't catch that: "empty" bottle with "brown liquid inside". Kind of confusing, but maybe they mean to say that whatever the brown liquid was, it wasn't Crystal Light. :confused: I'd say that's a great guess on your part, someone spit chewing tobacco in it. The bottle was found in the trash in the car along with the tobacco can, right? if so, makes perfect sense.

In the Tony L transcript I think from Sept 08 - the LE mentions someone chewing tobacco, and Tony says his roommate does. So, I'm figuring that bottle of brown fluid might be from the garbage from Tony's. (or bong water?)
 
The defense can state this very thing in court - how would Casey get her hands on this? But chloroform was not the cause of death.

I am praying that LE has wayyyy more info on the chloroform than we think. If there's one thing in this case that I just don't get, the chloroform is it, without a doubt.
 
The defense can state this very thing in court - how would Casey get her hands on this? But chloroform was not the cause of death.

We don't know the cause of death and I doubt the prosecution does either with any certainty. Knowing the cause would help the case but its not a necessary element.

The chloroform to me is just an intriguing mystery in this case that causes lots of questions to which we currently have no answers. For all anyone knows it could have been the cause of death....I personally doubt it though.
 
I have always thought this. She smelled the car and knew it was the smell of death, her daughter was alive and she was lying to police and caylee was gone. The last thing on her mind was house cleaning and laundry - she saw the pants and I bet they were covered in something awful and she washed them! On purpose and planned to claim ignorance. It looked bad for Casey and CA hates looking bad. This still infuriates ME!

My boyfriend pours concrete for a living. I'm forever cleaning the hose of my washing machine because it inevitably gets gunked up with mud and soot and whatnot. Is there no way of having checked the washing machine, dryer, lint tray, water hoses, etc, for any samples? I mean, if they can find fingerprints on tape underwater after months ... can they find nothing here?
 
Nurses so not have access to chloroform. It's not kept in any medical facility.

It's been illegal for any medical purpose for years, maybe over a decade.

Also, CA wasn't working with patients or facilities, directly.
and there are computer searches on how to make chloroform.
 
I remember when the chloroform information came out that sleuthers were mentioning the possibility that veterinarians might still use it...KC did have a friend who was a vet and if I remember correctly his name is Matt??? He had a Myspace page of him in swimming shorts (without shirt) on a pier of sorts. Anyone else remember that? Nonetheless, most of us let that stream of inquiry go as we learned that chloroform has been banned for use of any kind for many, many years. I'm still quite perplexed about it all and am starting to lean toward the possibility that this was preliminary information that might have later been explained through other means???
 
My boyfriend pours concrete for a living. I'm forever cleaning the hose of my washing machine because it inevitably gets gunked up with mud and soot and whatnot. Is there no way of having checked the washing machine, dryer, lint tray, water hoses, etc, for any samples? I mean, if they can find fingerprints on tape underwater after months ... can they find nothing here?

Good point, but if it were just loose dirt/mud on the pants (probably all it was), it was likely destroyed by the wash (spin! lol :rolleyes:) cycle, leaving nothing of evidentary value. My guess is that they can find other sources to compare, like those two compounds found in the trunk (can't think of the names at this point, been sleuthin' all day :crazy:) that matched a low lying swamp area, so they didn't bother with going through this process of checking the washing machine/dryer knowing the high probability of finiding nothing major, kwim?
 
I remember when the chloroform information came out that sleuthers were mentioning the possibility that veterinarians might still use it...KC did have a friend who was a vet and if I remember correctly his name is Matt??? He had a Myspace page of him in swimming shorts (without shirt) on a pier of sorts. Anyone else remember that? Nonetheless, most of us let that stream of inquiry go as we learned that chloroform has been banned for use of any kind for many, many years. I'm still quite perplexed about it all and am starting to lean toward the possibility that this was preliminary information that might have later been explained through other means???


I was a Veterinary Tech for 25 years and we never had chloroform ever...in the early day we did use ether...but no chloroform.
 
great point, thanks for the reminder. It's easy to forget the simplest things sometimes :)

I'm sure I have forgotten more info in this case than I have retained.There's so MUCH of it!:)
 
The correspondence regarding the chloroform levels found in the trunk were of interest to me.

When the information was first released that it had been found in high concentration, I was of the belief that KC had used it on Caylee in an attempt to subdue her long enough to accomplish the deed.

Then we had Simon B's statement about the flies and maggots seen upon opening the trunk lid at the tow yard.

Learning that chloroform would act as an insecticide, it didn't make sense that KC had used it for purposes of subduing Caylee, as those high levels would have killed the insects.

The trash bag containing the paper towels with the VFA's (grave wax) adhering to them, was removed and placed in the tow yard dumpster by Simon B.

Dr. Vass questioning the detective's about KC's access to chloroform, or FAMILY access, leads me to believe that it was not used until AFTER the Pontiac was returned to the Anthony garage on July 15th.

I'm wondering if the gas chromatic spectrometry is/was able to discern a variation of compounds in the chloroform that would indicate an industrial/professional grade versus homemade, internet instructed, readily available to the lay person ingredients, type of chloroform?

Cindy COULD have had access to the industrial/professional grade through her work.

I think the chloroform was used to clean the trunk by GA or CA.

BBM. I'm going to do my best to answer your question about the GC/MS without going into too much detail. Gas Chromatography is a method of separating and identifying chemicals based on their boiling points and their polarity. To use a GC, you inject a small amount of a sample into an injection port where the sample is vaporized and loaded onto a column. The mobile phase, usually a noble gas, carries the sample through the system (the heated column) and allows the sample to interact with the stationary phase. The stationary phase is the substance that lines the inside of the column (this is what the sample with interact with). In chemistry, similar substances will bond with similar substances....we say that "like dissolves like". A polar component of the sample will bond with a polar stationary phase within a column, whereas a non-polar component of the sample will not (and vice versa). The components of the sample that bind with the stationary phase will stay on the column longer than the components that are not bound to the stationary phase; this means that the non-binding components will travel through the column and be eluted more quickly than the binding components will be. In order to cause the bound components to be eluted from the column in a reasonable amount of time, it is heated. Controlling the temperature of the GC also serves the purpose of separating the components of the sample by their boiling points. Smaller molecules will reach their boiling point more quickly than larger molecules will, so the small molecules will move through the system more quickly. Therefore, GC analysis will allow for the separation of components in a sample based on both boiling point of a component and on its polarity (similarity to the stationary phase).
Once a component reaches the end of the column and is eluted, a detector will graph the intensity of the response against the time at which the component was eluted (called the retention time). Different compounds will be eluted at different retention times, so the intensity of the peak at a given retention time will represent the concentration of the corresponding compound (or sample component). This graph is called a chromatogram. There are many different types of detectors that can be coupled with a GC, one of which is called a Mass Spectrometer. How a Mass Spec works is WAAAAAY beyond the scope of what I can explain simply and it isn't really important in this context. Mass Spec can be used as a detector with an HPLC or an IPC as well as a GC....the other instrument does the separation and the MS is just the detector. Anyhow, back to my main point, chloroform is chloroform is chloroform....it's the same molecule no matter how it is made. If it weren't chloroform, the GC would have eluted it at a different retention time...make sense? Hope this helps answer your question. :)
 
IIRC somewhere in this case a tattoo guy said he used chloroform to clean up the chairs and such after giving tats.
 
She gave anothe example CA said have you ever opened your refridgerater and said "Smells like something died in there" in passing as a general thought to yourself?

Too bad for CA she didn't say that exact phrase in a matter of fact way - she was out of breath - choking with fear and pratically screaming for help when she mentioned the smell in the car to 911.

???? :eek:

I'm especially not a good housekeeper these days but wth? If my frig smelled that bad, even I'd have to clean it. Now if you went away on vaca and left raw meat in the frig part or the electric went off, etc. But, luckily that has not happened to me.

My parents threw a bunch of stuff out once for safety sake but it was way before smell time.
 
DogMom2JoeAndWillie, you sound like an expert - can you explain azeotropes, and do they have anything to do with the finding of residual chloroform, absent acetones or esthers?
 
BBM. I'm going to do my best to answer your question about the GC/MS without going into too much detail. Gas Chromatography is a method of separating and identifying chemicals based on their boiling points and their polarity. To use a GC, you inject a small amount of a sample into an injection port where the sample is vaporized and loaded onto a column. The mobile phase, usually a noble gas, carries the sample through the system (the heated column) and allows the sample to interact with the stationary phase. The stationary phase is the substance that lines the inside of the column (this is what the sample with interact with). In chemistry, similar substances will bond with similar substances....we say that "like dissolves like". A polar component of the sample will bond with a polar stationary phase within a column, whereas a non-polar component of the sample will not (and vice versa). The components of the sample that bind with the stationary phase will stay on the column longer than the components that are not bound to the stationary phase; this means that the non-binding components will travel through the column and be eluted more quickly than the binding components will be. In order to cause the bound components to be eluted from the column in a reasonable amount of time, it is heated. Controlling the temperature of the GC also serves the purpose of separating the components of the sample by their boiling points. Smaller molecules will reach their boiling point more quickly than larger molecules will, so the small molecules will move through the system more quickly. Therefore, GC analysis will allow for the separation of components in a sample based on both boiling point of a component and on its polarity (similarity to the stationary phase).
Once a component reaches the end of the column and is eluted, a detector will graph the intensity of the response against the time at which the component was eluted (called the retention time). Different compounds will be eluted at different retention times, so the intensity of the peak at a given retention time will represent the concentration of the corresponding compound (or sample component). This graph is called a chromatogram. There are many different types of detectors that can be coupled with a GC, one of which is called a Mass Spectrometer. How a Mass Spec works is WAAAAAY beyond the scope of what I can explain simply and it isn't really important in this context. Mass Spec can be used as a detector with an HPLC or an IPC as well as a GC....the other instrument does the separation and the MS is just the detector. Anyhow, back to my main point, chloroform is chloroform is chloroform....it's the same molecule no matter how it is made. If it weren't chloroform, the GC would have eluted it at a different retention time...make sense? Hope this helps answer your question. :)
Dogmom - You definitely sound like you know more about this than most of us! Thanks for this info...I am gathering from your post that you think that there WAS chloroform (pure and simple) in the trunk. Is this what you think or is there some other theory that could tie into your knowledge about this subject matter???
 
IIRC somewhere in this case a tattoo guy said he used chloroform to clean up the chairs and such after giving tats.

Is this in an interview, or something we think we heard? I remember that too - recently I think - but have no idea if I read it or just heard about it from a poster, etc.
 

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