2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

[Bobo]

FYI only.

I don't see any fiber thread posts makin' their way over here, guys. If anything....I need to move some of the fiber-specific posts off of this thread and over there later.

When you make a breakthrough it'll be ok to post an FYI w/ link here on this thread to the post there...but do your best not to create two threads running in parallel.
TIA.

OKay, BJB. Putting the fiber posts from here over to the fiber thread makes me just as happy. :dance: I hope I can remember to keep 'em separate. Cuz it does seem to be getting to the point where it's hard to keep fiber-talk and duct tape-talk totally segregated. So thanks for the bit of leeway indicated in your earlier post. I get it. Just :slap: me if I wander off the road too far.

I'm even happier you said "when" instead of "if" we make a breakthrough. Coming from BJB, that's HUGE! It takes so little to keep me hopeful and my spirits up! :innocent:

I'm gonna keep my :eye: open for more reasons to tie fibers + duct tape + anything else (for example, plush toys, be they Taz or whatever)

 

[BondJamesBond]

I'm gonna keep my :eye: open for more reasons to tie fibers + duct tape +

*snipped*

Thanks, Bobo. One last piece of guidance. When weaving sleuthin' from several topics into a cohesive story...the "Theories..." thread is the best place to bring it all together. That works better than trying to keep 2-3 related threads all running w/ info.

Alright, then. I'd had to be the truth hiding from you guys...it doesn't stand a chance.

 

[beach]

As a cliff notes version, I just want to point out that I find it very telling that all pieces of duct tape removed by the ME from Caylee's skull - Q62, Q63 and Q64 ALL contained the exact same 2 fibers: only black wool & blue cotton were present and head hair was found on all 3 pieces.

In contrast, many various fibers were removed from Q104 - the only one in common with the above mentioned is blue cotton and no head hair was present, only fringe hairs.

The facts referenced above make me feel pretty confident in surmising that Q104 was never placed on Caylee's face. It is totally different, even in that it was found away from the body. So, even if one doesn't go along with the arms/hands scenario, I think it had to be placed somewhere else other than her face. jmho.

Most curious to me is the black wool fibers. Some way, some how - either Caylee's face and/or the 3 pieces of duct tape found on her skull came in contact with fabric containing black wool. The only place I am positive I have seen black wool referenced is on Q62, Q63, & Q64. (That is not to say black wool is not found somewhere else in the docs. In fact, as Harmony pointed out - I, too, believe I read where one of the labs found evidence of it on the paper towels/napkins retrieved from the trash bag taken from TL's, found in the trunk at the impound lot and tossed into the dumpster. Although I tried to keep an eye out, my focus was limited to the duct tape and the items removed from the crime scene.)

I want to know more about the plaid blanket. Has it just 'disappeared' completely??? Also, if anyone runs across the lab reports in re. the paper towels, please post the findings and page #.

 

[beach]

I know this sounds like an ot post - but I'm trying to visualize the fibers stuck to the duct tape. I just can't get past the "black wool" fibers in Florida! A coat? socks? pants? sweater? hat? I cannot imagine anyone living in Florida owning and wearing any of these items containing black wool. Wool is one of the warmest fibers and black is the hottest color to wear. In June and July with all of the humidity in that area - this has to be a blanket, a rug, etc. I am now thinking it would be much more difficult to get fibers from the nose of a stuffed animal (wool stitching) on all 3 pieces of tape. KC didn't have black lamb skin (wool) seat covers did she? Do have any verification the red fibers were wool or were they cotton?

hi wenwe

I have the same concerns/questions, however I hesitate to say anymore for fear we are entering 'fiber territory' solely.

I probably should've saved some of my observations for a post in the fiber thread. My main intention was to point out the obvious differences between the pieces found on Caylee's skull and Q104 - my summary in the 3rd paragraph of my earlier post.

Mods, I apologize. I'm obviously not very good at figuring out what goes where yet....or better yet, when to just hush. :blushing:
In re. my earlier post, please edit, move or delete as needed.

 

[notthatsmart]

I think the duct tape could pick up anything in the environment as well. Duct tape is like a magnet in that way. Wonder what is just floating around in the air (pollen?), especially during and after a storm. Could we actually open a clean roll of duct tape and not find any fibers with a microscope? Are factories that clean? I doubt it. Would be nice to see a control sample. Is there one?

The photo that Az supplied with the duct tape in an x shape fashion makes me begin to wonder if that duct tape was ever placed on Caylees face. It just does not make sense to me to be in that x shape fashion. I begin to wonder if it was just used to patch a hole in that laundry bag or something to that effect. The skull sitting upright is the most bothersome to me. I have seen many pictures of skeletens and have not seen anything like it. I find it hard to believe that the skull rotated and kept this duct tape and mandible in place. It seems to me that the skull would not rotate until after decomposition and disarticulation and dislocation. And how does the hair rotate along with the whole thing? Just thinking out loud, but that x shape fashion picture makes me rethink again and again. thanks az

 

[LambChop]

I would think if the ME stated in her report that the duct tape was on the skull that this is fact. No room for speculation or she would not have stated it in her report. Caylee to date has given us an abundance of evidence. The laundry bag appears in excellent shape and why would someone duct tape a bag just to throw it in the swamp? As hard as it is to believe the duct tape was on the child, it appears it was. How it was all placed for sure has yet to be determined by us and we may not find out until trial. As we all know this is not good news for KC and will not be easy to explain away. jmo

 

[sarah7855]

The photo that Az supplied with the duct tape in an x shape fashion makes me begin to wonder if that duct tape was ever placed on Caylees face. It just does not make sense to me to be in that x shape fashion. I begin to wonder if it was just used to patch a hole in that laundry bag or something to that effect. The skull sitting upright is the most bothersome to me. I have seen many pictures of skeletens and have not seen anything like it. I find it hard to believe that the skull rotated and kept this duct tape and mandible in place. It seems to me that the skull would not rotate until after decomposition and disarticulation and dislocation. And how does the hair rotate along with the whole thing? Just thinking out loud, but that x shape fashion picture makes me rethink again and again. thanks az

RSBM. Patching a hole in the laundry bag? and then the tape 'somehow' just removed itself from the laundry bag, got inside the laundry and garbage bags and attached itself to Caylee's skull in such a manner that it kept the mandible in place despite animal activity, flooding, and who knows what else? :waitasec:

NTS, you should really study Occam's Razor...one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything!

The evidence is showing us what actually happened, piece by piece: the killer applied three strips varying in length from 7.5 to 9.5 inches across Caylee's little face, and those strips were so long that they extended into her hair and stuck there after her body decomposed in the woods for 6 months. I don't know why the skull sitting upright would seem off to you; it might help if you considered that Caylee was devoured by animals as she lay decomposing in those woods. Most (if not all) of her remains weren't in the positions that they were to begin with because of those animals as well as the elements taking their toll and moving her bones around. Have you studied the reports that tell where each bone was found? Doing so may help you get a better understanding of the degree of skeletal dispersal and paint a mental picture of just how far her tiny little bones were strewn about. The duct tape was able to stay in place because it was stuck in her hair, which was still attached but completely matted up at the base of her skull. It was all one "unit", if you will-skull, tape and hair, and that's how it was able to move around as one piece. I guess I'm not understanding how you are making the leap from the position of the skull having anything to do with the fact that the tape WAS covering her mouth and nasal apertures.

And, just because I'm nitpicky like that :trout:, here's AZ's [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5197128&postcount=646"]post[/ame] that you referenced. It says, in part (respectfully snipped & bolded by me):

here's one possible placement of the tape

It has a picture attached showing one piece of tape that appears to run at a slight diagonal in between two straight strips of duct tape placed over the "lower portion" of what appears to be a child's skull. There's no duct tape shown in an "X" fashion. She was giving us a visual of possible placement of the duct tape based on measurements and other things, such as matching up the ends of the tape, and IMO, she did a great job with this visual. Thank you AZ, and thanks to all the other sleuthers hard at work on this thread!! :clap:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I would think if the ME stated in her report that the duct tape was on the skull that this is fact. No room for speculation or she would not have stated it in her report. Caylee to date has given us an abundance of evidence. The laundry bag appears in excellent shape and why would someone duct tape a bag just to throw it in the swamp? As hard as it is to believe the duct tape was on the child, it appears it was. How it was all placed for sure has yet to be determined by us and we may not find out until trial. As we all know this is not good news for KC and will not be easy to explain away. jmo

bbm ~ True. Linking report for those who'd like to read it ~ (post 165 in the Official Documents thread) ~

Autopsy: Report of examination ~ http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19801498/detail.html

pdf. pg. 2 (written pg. 6441)
C. Several overlapping pieces of duct tape, over the anterior portion of the lower skull, including mandible and a portion of the maxilla*
1. Duct tape still attached to scalp hairs
2. Mandible still in approximate anatomic position with no visible attached soft tissue beneath the duct tape

*maxilla = upper jaw in which the bony elements are closely fused.

pdf. pg. 3
"discarded with two trash bags and a laundry bag. ..., there is duct tape over the lower facial region still attached to head hair.
This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition, keeping the mandible in place."

"There is nothing inconsistent with the body being placed there soon after the date of being last seen alive."


PLEASE READ pdf. pg. 11 for detailed information about the HAIR and the TAPE.

 

[tankgirl]

This will be a 2-part post. The 1st part will explain the process of piecing together the Henkel duct tape segments in the exact sequence that they came off of the roll. The goal is to determine if the sequence will provide insight into their use.

Special thanks to AZLawyer, Muzikman, JWG and Valhall as they’ve entertained my requests for information along the way without much of an explanation why.

The Henkel duct tape discovered on Suburban Drive can be summarized to include the following:

• Q62 attached to the skull
• Q63 attached to the skull
• Q64 attached to the skull
• Q100 apart from the skull, but, in the vicinity of the letters of the “Big Trouble…” t-shirt

One additional piece of interest for this post was recovered from the Hopespring Dr. residence:​

• Q66 covering the vent hold of a gas can

This particular Henkel duct tape product includes a logo and text marking, alternating to the left & right of center along the length of the non-adhesive side of the backing.

Henkel logo pattern courtesy of our own FairNBalanced:

​

Using the Henkel logo marking pattern I determined the sequence that the segments of tape came from the roll... much like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. When placed in the proper order each tape segment MUST align with BOTH the tear position AND the logo marking of the roll. This alignment process can also suggest if tape segments are missing from within a series if suitable matches for each tear are not found.

From the manufacturer’s specs cited earlier in the thread I used a tape width of 1.88”. With this measurement I maintained the aspect ratio of each tape segment’s image and scaled it to its actual size. Fortunately, most of the tape segment images are reasonably close to being flat and straight. FWIW, I checked the lengths of the scaled tape segments against the lengths in the forensics reports. All were reasonably close, with only the scaled Q62 image being slightly longer (9.3”).

Using a flat image of Henkel tape provided by FairNBalanced, and the known 1.88” width, I determined the repeat distance of the logo marking and replicated the text and the relative positions of each of the logo elements. I combined these to create a “virtual duct tape stencil” that I then overlaid on each tape segment. FairNBalanced’s image was remarkably close to the repeat pattern I was able to see in the actual Q-series tape segments.

The “virtual duct tape stencil” also made it easy to see where the logo marking had degraded or was difficult to view due to the reflection on the plastic sample bags in which they were placed. In all tape segments, however, there was at least one, and in some cases multiple, logo & print marking(s) with which the “virtual” stencil could be confirmed and aligned. :thumb:

How logo alignment is done:

​

Assumptions:

• I assumed that the logo on the Henkel tap is right-side up when pulling the tape off the roll in front of you. IF the logo is, in fact, upside down it would simply reverse the sequence of the segments.
  
• I also assumed that the segments of duct tape were torn and applied one-at-a-time instead of all of the pieces being torn from the roll before any of them were applied.

Lining up for matches:
Here’s and example of lining up two tape segment to determine which is the better fit using the logo pattern. Note that end matches can be eliminated easily when the logo appears out of synch with the stencil (left to right) OR out of synch with the lengthwise position of the logo.

​

I repeated this alignment test for all of the tape segments to determine if and how they fit.

After applying all possible combinations, the following best describes the sequence of taping that occurred:

1) Q64 applied first
2) Q100 applied second but NOT over Q64
3) Q63 applied third over Q64 at an angle
4) Q62 applied last over Q63​

Only one end of Q100 among all of all the tape segments was significantly deteriorated enough to make the matching questionable. Fortunately, since there were excellent matches with all of the other tears, and since we also know that Q63 was attached on top of Q64, (the piece that came before Q100) it is reasonable to conclude that Q100 was applied after Q64 and before Q63, but, wasn’t sufficiently caught between them.

Q64 Matches Q100:

​

Q100 Matches Q63:

​

Q63 Matches Q62:

​

I used the same process on the piece of tape from the gas can, Q66, and determined that it was not a fit EITHER BEFORE Q64 or AFTER Q62. This doesn’t mean that Q66 didn’t come from the same roll or batch, only that it wasn’t taken from the roll immediately before Q64 or immediately after Q62. It is worth noting that the gas can tape analysis is not as straight forward as those found with the remains due to one of the images I have being on a curved surface, and the other providing only a partial view of the tape.

Next...if you have the patience for it ... Part 2 will use the sequence of tape pieces and a few other observations about them to suggest how they were applied.

bumping this, hope its OK.

 

[tankgirl]

Mmkay.. just a thought. The heart sticker residue was apparently found on the left end (nonadhesive side) of Q64.

It is noted that the residue was on the "outermost layer" of tape.

Thus, Q64 was the last piece applied to the face?

 

[beach]

Mmkay.. just a thought. The heart sticker residue was apparently found on the left end (nonadhesive side) of Q64.

It is noted that the residue was on the "outermost layer" of tape.

Thus, Q64 was the last piece applied to the face?

I don't know, but I don't *think* so. This is why: although the ME report does not specifiy exactly what order they removed the tape, it seems logical that they would remove a piece then assign a designation (Q#). e.g., the first to be removed would be Q62, then Q63 and finally Q64. So, if we go by that logic (and I'm not saying it is correct...just my logic ), Q64 would likely have been the first piece Casey applied to Caylee's face, since it would be the last one removed and assigned a Q# by the ME. (IOW, probably under either/or Q62 & Q63)

Whew. I know I didn't explain that very well and it seems confusing. Even when I read it. lol Some things just make sense in my own head.


Actually, this is exactly why I asked the question on the 'Heart sticker' thread verifying the Q# the FBI pic. It might help us understand the exact placement.

 

[AZlawyer]

Mmkay.. just a thought. The heart sticker residue was apparently found on the left end (nonadhesive side) of Q64.

It is noted that the residue was on the "outermost layer" of tape.

Thus, Q64 was the last piece applied to the face?

I don't know, but I don't *think* so. This is why: although the ME report does not specifiy exactly what order they removed the tape, it seems logical that they would remove a piece then assign a designation (Q#). e.g., the first to be removed would be Q62, then Q63 and finally Q64. So, if we go by that logic (and I'm not saying it is correct...just my logic ), Q64 would likely have been the first piece Casey applied to Caylee's face, since it would be the last one removed and assigned a Q# by the ME. (IOW, probably under either/or Q62 & Q63)

Whew. I know I didn't explain that very well and it seems confusing. Even when I read it. lol Some things just make sense in my own head.


Actually, this is exactly why I asked the question on the 'Heart sticker' thread verifying the Q# the FBI pic. It might help us understand the exact placement.

The FBI reports state that Q63 was the top piece, and in the photos of Q63 and Q64 crossed, you can see that Q63 is on top. The FBI notes also stated that the heart shape was on Q63, although EF from the FBI used a photo of Q64 for her Power Point presentation with the drawing of the heart.

 

[christee]

I don't know, but I don't *think* so. This is why: although the ME report does not specifiy exactly what order they removed the tape, it seems logical that they would remove a piece then assign a designation (Q#). e.g., the first to be removed would be Q62, then Q63 and finally Q64. So, if we go by that logic (and I'm not saying it is correct...just my logic ), Q64 would likely have been the first piece Casey applied to Caylee's face, since it would be the last one removed and assigned a Q# by the ME. (IOW, probably under either/or Q62 & Q63)

Whew. I know I didn't explain that very well and it seems confusing. Even when I read it. lol Some things just make sense in my own head.


Actually, this is exactly why I asked the question on the 'Heart sticker' thread verifying the Q# the FBI pic. It might help us understand the exact placement.

I understood your thinking AZ!
In trying to simplify all the tape info it made sense to me that the piece on top (the last piece applied) would be more exposed to the elements. I can tell that the Henkel tape info printed on this piece is so faded that it is barely readable:

 

[Chiquita71]

Hello WS

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105150"]2010.05.21 - 23 Today's Current News - ***NO DISCUSSIONS HERE PLEASE *** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

From TCN, thank you AWC.

Some of the pages dealt with what prosecutors are working to determine to prove their theory that duct tape on Caylee Anthony's mouth was indeed the murder weapon.

In an e-mail between FBI analysts, they discuss why prosecutors are so interested in the length and width of the duct tape, as well as high-tech plans they have to show the tape used in Caylee's death.

In an e-mail dated in February 2009, an FBI analyst said, "They want to know if it would be possible for the tape as it was to cover both the mouth and nose areas."

The e-mail continued and said prosecutors would need scale measurements of the tape "to do some computerized re-creation images of the skull with the tape."

Also included in the documents was an inventory from the Suburban Drive crime scene that detailed how flags placed at the scene marked a myriad of body parts, including teeth and bones from the leg and ribs.
(end)

Q: Does "duct tape as the murder weapon" mean there was no "drugging/sedation?" TIA

They are going to use computer graphics to show the jury certain arguments/evidence. That's interesting. :twocents:

...js...

 

[Anais]

Hello WS

2010.05.21 - 23 Today's Current News - ***NO DISCUSSIONS HERE PLEASE *** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

From TCN, thank you AWC.

Some of the pages dealt with what prosecutors are working to determine to prove their theory that duct tape on Caylee Anthony's mouth was indeed the murder weapon.

In an e-mail between FBI analysts, they discuss why prosecutors are so interested in the length and width of the duct tape, as well as high-tech plans they have to show the tape used in Caylee's death.

In an e-mail dated in February 2009, an FBI analyst said, "They want to know if it would be possible for the tape as it was to cover both the mouth and nose areas."

The e-mail continued and said prosecutors would need scale measurements of the tape "to do some computerized re-creation images of the skull with the tape."

Also included in the documents was an inventory from the Suburban Drive crime scene that detailed how flags placed at the scene marked a myriad of body parts, including teeth and bones from the leg and ribs.
(end)

Q: Does "duct tape as the murder weapon" mean there was no "drugging/sedation?" TIA

They are going to use computer graphics to show the jury certain arguments/evidence. That's interesting. :twocents:

...js...

BBM

You know I wonder if they will be using the newer cgi graphics considering it also allows for 3D presentation. It will also allow for a very real, life like graphical. Oh, the thought gave me the chills and I shudder to even consider the realistic image it will present of Caylee.

That will be great for jurors imo, but will be rough for the A's and ICA. JMO

 

[Aedrys]

BBM

You know I wonder if they will be using the newer cgi graphics considering it also allows for 3D presentation. It will also allow for a very real, life like graphical. Oh, the thought gave me the chills and I shudder to even consider the realistic image it will present of Caylee.

That will be great for jurors imo, but will be rough for the A's and ICA. JMO

I hope it's rough for the A's and ICA. Let it be rough! ICA deserves to see what she did again in that courtroom as graphically as possible. And if the A's want the real truth, they should get to see it as graphically as possible! I feel no sorrow towards any of them. They brought this all on themselves and certainly the denial will end after seeing a 3D graphic presentation of what happened to Caylee.

Now I feel empathy for everyone else, especially the jurors, who have to watch it. What a horrible, horrible thing to have to see. I bet we'll all have nightmares after seeing something like that.

 

[beach]

I hope it's rough for the A's and ICA. Let it be rough! ICA deserves to see what she did again in that courtroom as graphically as possible. And if the A's want the real truth, they should get to see it as graphically as possible! I feel no sorrow towards any of them. They brought this all on themselves and certainly the denial will end after seeing a 3D graphic presentation of what happened to Caylee.

Now I feel empathy for everyone else, especially the jurors, who have to watch it. What a horrible, horrible thing to have to see. I bet we'll all have nightmares after seeing something like that.

Betcha George walks out of the courtroom before the SA hits 'play' on that demo presentation. I think Cindy will probably stay, but not George.


I've been praying for those yet-to-be-determined jurors for months now. This thread, in particular, often haunts me. And, I don't have to spend 2 months in a hotel with no family, tv, radio, and newpapers that help distract me. This is going to be hard testimony to live with every night.

 

[The World According]

Betcha George walks out of the courtroom before the SA hits 'play' on that demo presentation. I think Cindy will probably stay, but not George.


I've been praying for those yet-to-be-determined jurors for months now. This thread, in particular, often haunts me. And, I don't have to spend 2 months in a hotel with no family, tv, radio, and newpapers that help distract me. This is going to be hard testimony to live with every night.

I agree and if I were the prosecution I would begin my opening statements with the duct tape being over her airways, I would mention it so very often the defense has to object, I would certainly feature it in the trial and end with it in the rebuttal and closing arguments. Once the jury sees any of these photos, they are going to say what Judge Strickland said, "That'll surely keep me up tonight!"

If mom and pop are permitted to sit through the entire trial as the victim's family, (which I do not expect the judge to allow, at least until their testimony is one hundred percent complete), I would encourage them NOT to be there on the days this evidence is being presented. To see that the grandparents are sickened will only sure up for the jury their gut reactions about who could do this to a baby, their own baby. It would not serve Casey well at all for them to run out of the courtroom, although they have never let serving Casey's case be their guide so far.

 

[Anais]

I hope it's rough for the A's and ICA. Let it be rough! ICA deserves to see what she did again in that courtroom as graphically as possible. And if the A's want the real truth, they should get to see it as graphically as possible! I feel no sorrow towards any of them. They brought this all on themselves and certainly the denial will end after seeing a 3D graphic presentation of what happened to Caylee.

Now I feel empathy for everyone else, especially the jurors, who have to watch it. What a horrible, horrible thing to have to see. I bet we'll all have nightmares after seeing something like that.

BBM

Me too Aedrys, I hope it is more than rough. I hope that the very reality of it all smacks them square in their foreheads. I'm thinking the SA is going to do an awesome computer graphics 3D presentation. I wouldn't want to be a juror on this one. I have a hard time with some of the evidence threads so I cannot imagine sitting in a courtroom and all.....................Yes I feel for the jurors who will endure this horrible trial without the support of their family and loved ones!

 

[Anais]

I agree and if I were the prosecution I would begin my opening statements with the duct tape being over her airways, I would mention it so very often the defense has to object, I would certainly feature it in the trial and end with it in the rebuttal and closing arguments. Once the jury sees any of these photos, they are going to say what Judge Strickland said, "That'll surely keep me up tonight!"

If mom and pop are permitted to sit through the entire trial as the victim's family, (which I do not expect the judge to allow, at least until their testimony is one hundred percent complete), I would encourage them NOT to be there on the days this evidence is being presented. To see that the grandparents are sickened will only sure up for the jury their gut reactions about who could do this to a baby, their own baby. It would not serve Casey well at all for them to run out of the courtroom, although they have never let serving Casey's case be their guide so far.

Yes this would not only be dramatic but it would definitely hit home with the jurors. But I think that I would also include the 911 call where CA says I just got my daughters car today, it smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car........and also when the 911 operator asks Casey why she waited for 31 days to report her baby girl missing..