2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

[LambChop]

I think a trial is very different than a hearing in that people just can't get up and storm out of the courtroom. It could upset the judge enough to keep them out. It will be very hard for the A's to listen to most of the evidence so I am sure they can't keep running in and out everytime they are upset. Anyone know for sure how the judge would handle this??

 

[ThinkTank]

Going along with BondJamesBond's theory of Caylee's head tilting to the right, and Caylee possibly sitting in her carseat when the tape was applied, because the tape slants to the right - I can envision KC reaching in and putting the tape over her face, as Caylee sat slumped in her carseat, so KC would not have to look at Caylee's features, especially her eyes, and her mouth.
BJB says that Q64 was applied first - and if contains the heart shaped residue ... then maybe KC placed the first piece of duct tape and the heart sticker on ... then thought about the other 3 pieces of duct tape after that? I think the end of Q64 would have been the nearest to the car door as KC leaned in, and may explain why the heart sticker was placed on that end of the duct tape??

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“Tale of the Tape” Part 1 of 2 – "The process"

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"Tale of the Tape" Part 2 of 2 - "The observations"

 

[wenwe4]

I keep coming back to the angle of the tape placement over Caylee's face. I agree BJB that the angle suggests she was taped while her head was either tilted. The angle tells me she was taped as she lay (or sat), as I still think Caylee did not fight her or thrash around due to the placement and sequence of the tape pieces on the "death mask".

 

[beach]

I am simply amazed at the quality of work displayed on this thread. I love how so many people have chimed in and worked together to develop theories. Bond's schematic of the duct tape placement is second to none. :clap:


After studying ME's report and the fiber & hair evidence, I am more prone to accept AZ's approach in re. the taping as she described in the post linked below.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5197128&postcount=646"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5197128&postcount=646[/ame]


Mainly because:

1. the ME report specifies that the tape covered the lower portion of the skull
2. I don't see how it would be possible for Q104 to be placed on the face and not have any evidence of head hair
3. Q62, Q63 & Q64 all had the exact same hair & fiber evidence
4. Q104 was completely different in re. hair & fiber evidence. (fringe hairs only, no black wool, many more & totally different cotton fibers)

Accepting that theory leads us back to ponder exactly where Q104 was placed. Unfortunately, I tend to believe that it was used to bind Caylee's hands/arms to keep her from removing the tape on her face. Which in turn means, Caylee had to be alive when she was taped. :cry: I had to take a step back from this thread for a while....just emotionally too much. I realize what I have proposed is a lot of supposition. I'm ready to jump back in now and want to study the fibers found on Q104 in more depth. I think those fibers have a story to tell.

 

[Aedrys]

I am simply amazed at the quality of work displayed on this thread. I love how so many people have chimed in and worked together to develop theories. Bond's schematic of the duct tape placement is second to none. :clap:


After studying ME's report and the fiber & hair evidence, I am more prone to accept AZ's approach in re. the taping as she described in the post linked below.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5197128&postcount=646


Mainly because:

1. the ME report specifies that the tape covered the lower portion of the skull
2. I don't see how it would be possible for Q104 to be placed on the face and not have any evidence of head hair
3. Q62, Q63 & Q64 all had the exact same hair & fiber evidence
4. Q104 was completely different in re. hair & fiber evidence. (fringe hairs only, no black wool, many more & totally different cotton fibers)

Accepting that theory leads us back to ponder exactly where Q104 was placed. Unfortunately, I tend to believe that it was used to bind Caylee's hands/arms to keep her from removing the tape on her face. Which in turn means, Caylee had to be alive when she was taped. :cry: I had to take a step back from this thread for a while....just emotionally too much. I realize what I have proposed is a lot of supposition. I'm ready to jump back in now and want to study the fibers found on Q104 in more depth. I think those fibers have a story to tell.

I think you and AZ are right. And I'm wondering maybe if the tape was slanted because Caylee was moving her head as Casey went to put it on, and so it ended up being slanted? I can see that making Casey mad that Caylee was moving her head and the tape didn't get on there right, so she puts more on. I can see anything Caylee may have done just making Casey madder and madder. *shudder* That poor, poor baby...

 

[beach]

I think you and AZ are right. And I'm wondering maybe if the tape was slanted because Caylee was moving her head as Casey went to put it on, and so it ended up being slanted? I can see that making Casey mad that Caylee was moving her head and the tape didn't get on there right, so she puts more on. I can see anything Caylee may have done just making Casey madder and madder. *shudder* That poor, poor baby...

Gosh, I go back to several of AZ's posts to understand the placement....and, almost more importantly, the possible reasoning of the placement.


Like AZ, I believe:

1. Q62 was placed over the nose (whether it was placed first or last, not sure and doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of trying to figure this out. Bottom line, it was placed to block her nasal air passage.)
   
2. Q64 was the first piece placed over the mouth (since we know from evidence photos and the reports that Q64 had to be placed before Q63, since Q63 was found on top of Q64)
   
3. the piece placed at a diagonal is Q63 - placed over her mouth at an angle to hold her jaw in place. (I happen to believe this is because of the 'Missing Piece' AZ refers to that we suppose Caylee may have been able to remove prior and was discarded when KC came back to find her Caylee had thwarted her plan. I think she used that piece to insure she couldn't gnaw or chew at it, in a primal attempt to breathe. )

The scenario proposed in #3 is yet another reason I believe Q104 was subsequently used to bind her hands/arms. :furious:


I just had a major AHA! moment while typing this out - if we are correct in this theory, that HAS to mean that the tape was torn off at one time, placed aside and THEN placed on Caylee, because Q64 HAD to have been placed BEFORE Q63 since Q63 was discovered on top of Q64. Or maybe I have missed something in the sequence theory in re. the order the tape was torn and edges line up.... I really need to re-check that before I jump to that conclusion so quickly.


I will go back and list AZ's posts that led me to this conclusion because they are scattered over several pages. Great work that made the puzzle fit together for me in a reasonable, believable manner. It was one of those moments when your heart falls into your gut because it is so sickening, but makes all too much sense that you just can't deny. Well, unless you are CA, I guess.

 

[wenwe4]

beach2,
I got confused as to the placement as well, as even BJB changed his original post a couple of times. This makes me want to look into Q104 even more. I don't remember which piece was the longest. What else would there be a need to tape? Ankles? (fringe hairs from legs?) the wtp blanket? But you are right - the fibers on Q104 are different.

ps: this is my favorite thread too - can't let it fall off the first page - the work done here is too important!

 

[beach]

Q62​

• 
  Removed from skull
  • Size ~9.5” x 2”
  • Head hairs: ≤ 3” decomp root w/ no root broken; all hairs found are = to Q59 (iow, all hairs found are Caylee’s) per pg. 596
  • Fibers: Manufactured – numerous white textured declustered polyester type; No trunk fibers
  o Wool – black (1)
  o Cotton – blue (1)
  • Photo pgs. 605 & 606; 1112 & 1113; info p. 596
  

Q63​

• Removed from skull
  • Intertwined/stuck together with Q64
  • Size ~7.5”x2”
  • Hair: Head hairs ≤3” decomp root w/ no root broken; all hairs found are = to Q59 per pg. 596
  • Fibers: Manufactured – numerous white textured declustered polyester type; No trunk fibers
  o Wool – black (1)
  o Cotton – blue (1)
  • Photo pgs. 607, 608, 609, 610 & 611; 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117 & 1118; info p. 596
  

Q64​

• Removed from skull
  • Intertwined/stuck together with Q63
  • Size ~9” x 2”
  • Hair: Head hairs ≤3” decomp root w/ no root broken; all hairs found are = to Q59 (iow, all hairs found are Caylee’s) per pg. 596
  • Fibers: Manufactured – numerous white textured declustered polyester type; No trunk fibers
  o Wool – black (1)
  o Cotton – blue (1)
  • Photo pgs. 607, 608, 612, 613 & 614; 1119, 1120, & 1121; info p. 596
  

Q104​

• Found apart from the skull, but in the vicinity of the letters of the “Big Trouble…” t-shirt
  • Hair: Caucasian fringe hairs, hair fragments, very fine, light brown ONLY piece of duct tape found containing no head hair (per FBI, pg. 565, ¶4)
  • Size: ~8.5”x2”
  • Fibers: blue cotton, red cotton, off-white (d), black (d) (mostly opaque), grey-brown (d), blue (d) ≠ Q23-Q25
  • Photo pgs. 1243, 1244 & 1245; info p. 565, 752
  

ALL info relates back to the pdf linked below:

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21252257/detail.html


Link to the Fiber Analysis post for quick reference.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5198814&postcount=164

bumping these specs for wenwe

 

[beach]

AZLawyer's brilliant sleuthing posts :bowdown: tied up in one little neat package for reference purposes.


The first one linked actually contains 2 of her posts, back-to-back. Both are VIP reading.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5177768&postcount=487"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5177768&postcount=487[/ame]




This one is a heavily edited Cliff Notes version of the previous link.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5180546&postcount=531"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5180546&postcount=531[/ame]




Another....

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5193575&postcount=615"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5193575&postcount=615[/ame]




This next one scared me senseless when I first saw it. It is based on mathematical equations allowing for the curvature of the jaw in re. the tape placement. I'm trusting AZ and her handy online calculator for this one.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5195861&postcount=623"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5195861&postcount=623[/ame]




This last link is AZ's rendition of her theory of the tape placement.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5197128&postcount=646"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5197128&postcount=646[/ame]


Great work AZ! :clap:

 

[AZlawyer]

After I did that "proposed placement of the tape" post, I realized that I had been thinking about the tape as if a piece could be placed over the mouth and a piece over the nose without overlapping. But that seems to be impossible, given the width of the tape and the size of Caylee's head.

Also, I noticed that the logos on Q64 and Q63 were facing the opposite direction in their "as found" (crossed) condition. Which, to me, suggests that they were not just torn off and applied one after the other, but torn off and stuck somewhere and then applied. So the order of application of the tape might differ from the order in which the tape pieces were removed from the roll.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

BBM

You know I wonder if they will be using the newer cgi graphics considering it also allows for 3D presentation. It will also allow for a very real, life like graphical. Oh, the thought gave me the chills and I shudder to even consider the realistic image it will present of Caylee.

That will be great for jurors imo, but will be rough for the A's and ICA. JMO

Oh I doubt that. The Anthonys care about saving Casey, nothing else.

 

[beach]

After I did that "proposed placement of the tape" post, I realized that I had been thinking about the tape as if a piece could be placed over the mouth and a piece over the nose without overlapping. But that seems to be impossible, given the width of the tape and the size of Caylee's head.

I see what you are saying. Still, I don't think that Q62 had to be stuck & entangled to the extent that Q63 & Q64 were. I think they probably overlapped a bit, but when the soft tissue disintegrated they probably 'loosened', iykwim.

Also, I noticed that the logos on Q64 and Q63 were facing the opposite direction in their "as found" (crossed) condition. Which, to me, suggests that they were not just torn off and applied one after the other, but torn off and stuck somewhere and then applied. So the order of application of the tape might differ from the order in which the tape pieces were removed from the roll.

I didn't even notice the logos facing opposite directions. Good catch. I also agree that I now believe that they were torn off at one time, stuck somewhere and THEN applied to Caylee's face. At least, in re. Q63 & Q64. Mainly because of that Missing Piece you discovered.

 

[AZlawyer]

I see what you are saying. Still, I don't think that Q62 had to be stuck & entangled to the extent that Q63 & Q64 were. I think they probably overlapped a bit, but when the soft tissue disintegrated they probably 'loosened', iykwim.

True. And even if there is more overlap than we thought, I still think Q62 must have been toward the top of the 3 pieces (nose area), because it was much straighter than the other 2 pieces.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

The logos in opposite direction sure do indicate that the pieces were first torn and then applied. Wow, wouldn't this be a major indication of premeditation?

 

[beach]

True. And even if there is more overlap than we thought, I still think Q62 must have been toward the top of the 3 pieces (nose area), because it was much straighter than the other 2 pieces.

ITA. In fact, I would think the first to be taped would be the mouth. So, if that is true, that would mean that Q62 would have layered on top and would help account for the 'straighter' condition.


Are you up for another assignment? :angel:


We know that Q104 is ~ 8.5" in length. I am wondering how we can determine the approximate circumference of Caylee's hands/wrists/forearms. I know we aren't gonna get anywhere near exact, but I envision that tape spiraled to some extent...I am picturing hands/wrists upward. I've tried to figure out another possibility for Q104, but nothing else makes sense to me.

Not trying to push off any homework, but I can promise you, you do not want me doing the math and using your fancy online calculator.

 

[beach]

The logos in opposite direction sure do indicate that the pieces were first torn and then applied. Wow, wouldn't this be a major indication of premeditation?

The deeper we delve, the more evidence of premeditation seems apparent, imo.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

ITA. In fact, I would think the first to be taped would be the mouth. So, if that is true, that would mean that Q62 would have layered on top and would help account for the 'straighter' condition.


Are you up for another assignment? :angel:


We know that Q104 is ~ 8.5" in length. I am wondering how we can determine the approximate circumference of Caylee's hands/wrists/forearms. I know we aren't gonna get anywhere near exact, but I envision that tape spiraled to some extent...I am picturing hands/wrists upward. I've tried to figure out another possibility for Q104, but nothing else makes sense to me.

Not trying to push off any homework, but I can promise you, you do not want me doing the math and using your fancy online calculator.

Don't think you'll need any fancy math for this one, beach2yall. I just measured my own wrists (hands placed palm to palm) = just under 10 inches. A toddler would have extra to spare even with the 1.5" difference!! (Wish I had my grandson here to measure (and hug)!!!)

 

[AZlawyer]

ITA. In fact, I would think the first to be taped would be the mouth. So, if that is true, that would mean that Q62 would have layered on top and would help account for the 'straighter' condition.


Are you up for another assignment? :angel:


We know that Q104 is ~ 8.5" in length. I am wondering how we can determine the approximate circumference of Caylee's hands/wrists/forearms. I know we aren't gonna get anywhere near exact, but I envision that tape spiraled to some extent...I am picturing hands/wrists upward. I've tried to figure out another possibility for Q104, but nothing else makes sense to me.

Not trying to push off any homework, but I can promise you, you do not want me doing the math and using your fancy online calculator.

Valhall already did this experiment. Even using a small-boned adult woman instead of a toddler, an 8.5" piece of tape went all the way around her wrists.
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/images/CMA/tape3.jpg

 

[beach]

Don't think you'll need any fancy math for this one, beach2yall. I just measured my own wrists (hands placed palm to palm) = just under 10 inches. A toddler would have extra to spare even with the 1.5" difference!! (Wish I had my grandson here to measure (and hug)!!!)

BBM

Considering AZ's critical eye that I appreciate, I obviously was envisioning this experiment more complicated than it needed to be. :loser:

In fact, this afternoon I will have access to a 2 yr. 10 mo old little boy. Even I can handle a tape measure. I will report back the exact measurements. That should give us a pretty close estimate.

 

[Swancat63]

My little one's wrist measurements, palm to palm around the wrists, is 7 inches. Hope this helps. She is 3yr 4mo old.