2009.11.06 Forensic Entomology Report Released #2

[thedeviledadvocate]

I do not remember SB's exact quotes from his questioning, but he initially said he tossed the plastic bag full of garbage over the fence separating the car from the dumpster area with a finger, like "fling".

When he went back later (before he knew LE had already taken bag) he said he was standing in the dumpster digging around.

Whether bag landed in dumpster or near dumpster, if contents of bag had attracted certain forensically significant insects while it was in the trunk for nearly two weeks, it seems scientists would be able to differentiate numbers and levels of even the same species from that bag based on time spent in said bag. Those that had been inside the bag for the 2+ weeks the car was in impound vs those that got a bag of edibles tossed at them which they opportunistically fed on for less than 24 hours.

I know Dr. Haskell said that following proper protocol in collecting bug evidence is vital to being able to make an accurate evaluation to what the bugs mean. 8 hours in or near a dumpster (which is a place where these types of insects are generally in great abundance) seems like it would be a breech of protocal. But it does seem like they could figure out which are which if they have enough bugs to compare to from the interior of the trunk. According to the reports there wasn't much in the way of bug evidence in the interior of the trunk. So I think it still may be a problem for LE.

 

[ynotdivein]

I know Dr. Haskell said that following proper protocol in collecting bug evidence is vital to being able to make an accurate evaluation to what the bugs mean. 8 hours in or near a dumpster (which is a place where these types of insects are generally in great abundance) seems like it would be a breech of protocal. But it does seem like they could figure out which are which if they have enough bugs to compare to from the interior of the trunk. According to the reports there wasn't much in the way of bug evidence in the interior of the trunk. So I think it still may be a problem for LE.

Agreed. The lack of insect evidence in the trunk is an issue. But a) could a wet-vac or other appliance used on the trunk between tow yard and confiscation possibly complicate the bug findings in trunk? and b) would a general dousing of the trunk with a mixture of the compounds indicated by the Gatorade bottle contents reduce or otherwise impact insect development?

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Agreed. The lack of insect evidence in the trunk is an issue. But a) could a wet-vac or other appliance used on the trunk between tow yard and confiscation possibly complicate the bug findings in trunk? and b) would a general dousing of the trunk with a mixture of the compounds indicated by the Gatorade bottle contents reduce or otherwise impact insect development?

Yes, if someone cleaned the trunk with a wetvac, and or doused the trunk with the compounds indicated by the Gatorade bottle contents, or cleaning products for that matter would definately have an effect on the insect evidence. The wetvac and several other vacs I believe were picked up in the search warrent, so those contents would be available if they contained any insects relevant to the case, but if the cleaning products destroyed any insect evidence, I am afraid that will be lost. Also, If anyone used cleaning products in that trunk after it came back from the towyard and before LE impounded it again, wouldn't that contaminate the interior of the trunk evidence generally speaking?
GA and CA seem to be neatniks, so I think its very possible that more than a spritzing of febreeze was done.

 

[Harmony 2]

Don't these findings kind of contradict each other. One saying early decomposition and the other saying advanced decomp.

LIBS- Body Farm results- Page 12/6562
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19801995.pdf

Entomology results- page 6/10458
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/15084977/Forensic-Entymology-Report

 

[Harmony 2]

Yes, if someone cleaned the trunk with a wetvac, and or doused the trunk with the compounds indicated by the Gatorade bottle contents, or cleaning products for that matter would definately have an effect on the insect evidence. The wetvac and several other vacs I believe were picked up in the search warrent, so those contents would be available if they contained any insects relevant to the case, but if the cleaning products destroyed any insect evidence, I am afraid that will be lost. Also, If anyone used cleaning products in that trunk after it came back from the towyard and before LE impounded it again, wouldn't that contaminate the interior of the trunk evidence generally speaking?
GA and CA seem to be neatniks, so I think its very possible that more than a spritzing of febreeze was done.

The only chemical found on the trunk carpet/liner/spare tire cover was chloroform. No cleaning chemicals or chemicals from the Gatorade bottle were found. Look at Valhall's post about those results:

ETA link: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4413140&postcount=87"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Q241-liquid from the car[/ame]

The results from the wet vac and other cleaning machines are not in yet.

 

[ynotdivein]

Yes, if someone cleaned the trunk with a wetvac, and or doused the trunk with the compounds indicated by the Gatorade bottle contents, or cleaning products for that matter would definately have an effect on the insect evidence. The wetvac and several other vacs I believe were picked up in the search warrent, so those contents would be available if they contained any insects relevant to the case, but if the cleaning products destroyed any insect evidence, I am afraid that will be lost. Also, If anyone used cleaning products in that trunk after it came back from the towyard and before LE impounded it again, wouldn't that contaminate the interior of the trunk evidence generally speaking?
GA and CA seem to be neatniks, so I think its very possible that more than a spritzing of febreeze was done.

Argh, deviled! (Shakes raised fist in your general direction!)

OK, we have not yet heard of any results from examination of wetvac and other vacs taken from House of A. So for all we know the 'smoking gun' has already been taken from same and not released...

And given the general consensus re: odor that we've heard from tow yard workers, GA, and CA between the time they reclaimed the car and the time LE claimed it, if anyone HAD used cleaners either shortly after body dump or in the post-towyard-pre-LE-seizure time frame, wouldn't that not only perhaps contaminate the insect remains in the interior but also implicate the heck out of anyone who claimed to have been near the car to clean it during the same timeframe?

ETA: And who do we know had access to the Sunfire in the post-towyard-to-LE-confiscation period? Well, GA for one, who apparently had previous car cleaning and LE experience.

The bugs have a lot to say about this case IMO, and it frushtrates me to no end that I can't figure it all out. :banghead:

 

[AZlawyer]

Don't these findings kind of contradict each other. One saying early decomposition and the other saying advanced decomp.

LIBS- Body Farm results- Page 12/6562
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19801995.pdf

Entomology results- page 6/10458
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/15084977/Forensic-Entymology-Report

It indicates to me that the carpet was exposed only to early decomp, but the flies were around for later decomp--so Caylee's body was likely placed in the bags early in the decomp process.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Argh, deviled! (Shakes raised fist in your general direction!)

OK, we have not yet heard of any results from examination of wetvac and other vacs taken from House of A. So for all we know the 'smoking gun' has already been taken from same and not released...

And given the general consensus re: odor that we've heard from tow yard workers, GA, and CA between the time they reclaimed the car and the time LE claimed it, if anyone HAD used cleaners either shortly after body dump or in the post-towyard-pre-LE-seizure time frame, wouldn't that not only perhaps contaminate the insect remains in the interior but also implicate the heck out of anyone who claimed to have been near the car to clean it during the same timeframe?

ETA: And who do we know had access to the Sunfire in the post-towyard-to-LE-confiscation period? Well, GA for one, who apparently had previous car cleaning and LE experience.

The bugs have a lot to say about this case IMO, and it frushtrates me to no end that I can't figure it all out. :banghead:

GA's 'hobby' was cleaning and detailing cars- CA says he even does relatives cars while they are visiting them. He did his best on the Pontiac but thank goodness not efficiently enough to get rid of much evidence. Or the smell.

 

[bananarama]

Although not directly related to this case, here is an interesting article about Bug Evidence in the Cleveland Ohio multiple murder case.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,574205,00.html?test=latestnews

 

[LambChop]

I am aware of the flys that were in the trunk, when George opened the trunk and the towyard guy took the white trash bag and placed it near a dumpster, then I think he placed it in the dumpster a little later after George had left. What I am asking is would the insects in the dumpster prior to the white trash bag being placed in or near the dumpster infiltrate the white trash bag thus contaminating the white trash bag with insects totally unrelated to the trunk? I think the white trash bag being in or near the dumpster is a big problem for LE. That is just my opinion of course.

I don't think it is a problem because they know it came from the car and any insects from the dumpster could have still gotten into the trunk when it was opened. Bugs don't seem to have any problems getting into tight places, ever. What is important is the papertowel in the trash bag with the proof of death. Also the bag had receipts that indentified that it did, in fact, come from Tony's apartment. JMO

 

[ZsaZsa]

I know Dr. Haskell said that following proper protocol in collecting bug evidence is vital to being able to make an accurate evaluation to what the bugs mean. 8 hours in or near a dumpster (which is a place where these types of insects are generally in great abundance) seems like it would be a breech of protocal. But it does seem like they could figure out which are which if they have enough bugs to compare to from the interior of the trunk. According to the reports there wasn't much in the way of bug evidence in the interior of the trunk. So I think it still may be a problem for LE.

It would make no difference whether the bugs came from a dumpster or outer space- what they settled on and fed on in the plastic trash bag was Caylee's decomposing body fluids on the paper towels.
They also collected flies from the trunk, as stated in Dr Haskell's report.

 

[Harmony 2]

It indicates to me that the carpet was exposed only to early decomp, but the flies were around for later decomp--so Caylee's body was likely placed in the bags early in the decomp process.

AZ, Thank you for your reply. Sorry I am so dense LOL.... I am trying to wrap my brain around this info because it still does not jive for me.

Wouldn't the total odor signature reflect the later decomposition compounds? The entomolgist is saying purging fluids attracted the coffin flies which show up in late stage decomp....yet Body Farm is saying the only volatile fatty acid found was butyric acid which they state fits nicely with early decomposition/PMI.

Page 16/6566 http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19801995.pdf

 

[AZlawyer]

AZ, Thank you for your reply. Sorry I am so dense LOL.... I am trying to wrap my brain around this info because it still does not jive for me.

Wouldn't the total odor signature reflect the later decomposition compounds? The entomolgist is saying purging fluids attracted the coffin flies which show up in late stage decomp....yet Body Farm is saying the only volatile fatty acid found was butyric acid which they state fits nicely with early decomposition/PMI.

WOW Sorry that showed up so BIG!!!

That's a good question. Thanks for making me think about this.

I believe the air chemical ("odor signature") test you're referring to was on a sample of the trunk carpet that was enclosed in a separate container and allowed to "off-gas" for a period of time. So the odor signature should be from the same stage of decomp as any decomp chemicals directly found in the carpet.

 

[skygirl]

I've listened to all of CA available interviews.

After she and GA brought the car home, she sent GA to work and CA states she went to work. We know she went to work per her co-workers. They told her she should go back home, and she went.

CA states she went through the stuff in the car...and she said she found AH's info. from a resume in the car.

My question is:

1. How long did she wait until she contacted AH to find KC?
2. Did she attempt to contact KC?(I think so, but can't remember)
3. What else did CA do to the car during this time frame? Other than removing and cleaning articles from the car.

I guess it may be hind-site, but did LE know to look for "flies" when digging in the A back yard near the dog hit sites?

 

[KenoshaKid]

I think they might have a difficult time using the paper towels since chain of custody was broken on the bag - UNLESS they can get some DNA off of the towels. Just my 2 cents.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I think they might have a difficult time using the paper towels since chain of custody was broken on the bag - UNLESS they can get some DNA off of the towels. Just my 2 cents.

The fluids (Adipocere) came from Caylee - and they were in Casey's 'custody' when they were found. In a locked car that she had left at Amscot.

The only people that knew the bag had been taken out of the car and left by the dumpster were George and Simon Birch the tow yard manager- so unless one of them had got hold of some of Caylee's decomposing body, put it in the bag before Y.Melich retrieved it the contents would have been unchanged.

 

[Harmony 2]

I think they might have a difficult time using the paper towels since chain of custody was broken on the bag - UNLESS they can get some DNA off of the towels. Just my 2 cents.

These are the serology and DNA results on the paper towels:

~cuttings from napkins~
Q248.1-1
Q248.2-1
Q248.3-1
Q248.4-1

page 4 from link below:

page 6 from link below:

Amelogenin has to do with being male or female

page 7 from link below:
on Q248.3-1 not enough DNA to work with

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/11988-12070.pdf

 

[Harmony 2]

That's a good question. Thanks for making me think about this.

I believe the air chemical ("odor signature") test you're referring to was on a sample of the trunk carpet that was enclosed in a separate container and allowed to "off-gas" for a period of time. So the odor signature should be from the same stage of decomp as any decomp chemicals directly found in the carpet.

I agree with bolded and underscored. Thank you again for your response. I need to give it more thought and reconcile the results.

 

[AZlawyer]

I agree with bolded and underscored. Thank you again for your response. I need to give it more thought and reconcile the results.

I just went back and looked at the report
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/19/6551.6591.pdf (pages 3 and 12)
and it appears that the butyric acid (referred to as being consistent with early decomp) was found directly in "scrapings" from the trunk carpet. So it makes sense, if Caylee's body was bagged early, that the carpet "scrapings" would contain only early decomp products.

 

[KenoshaKid]

The fluids (Adipocere) came from Caylee - and they were in Casey's 'custody' when they were found. In a locked car that she had left at Amscot.

The only people that knew the bag had been taken out of the car and left by the dumpster were George and Simon Birch the tow yard manager- so unless one of them had got hold of some of Caylee's decomposing body, put it in the bag before Y.Melich retrieved it the contents would have been unchanged.

I agree, but I can almost guarantee the defense will bring it up. Chain of custody is a big deal.