2009.11.06 Forensic Entomology Report Released #2

[logicalgirl]

Also, he is awfully young for a case of this magnitude. I would think they would try for someone more seasoned.

I understand they wanted Haskall but the State got to him first. Do we know just how much if anything Dr. Huntington disputes the State's expert? I don't remember reading any comments or a deposition from him. Anyone?

 

[Jolynna]

I believe as AZ indicates above, CM's argument will be something along the lines of "No coffin flies were found in the car". Well yes. They were found in the trash tossed from the car. What he conveniently bypasses is that GA had time to clean and prep the car itself before LE had access to it. So the worst of the physical evidence had been cleaned from the trunk, all that really remained were smells and stains.

This will go hand in hand with defense claims that the prosecution cannot prove that Caylee was murdered because they cannot state a clear and definitive COD. ("Don't you know 2 year olds die naturally all the time wrapped in duct tape and stuffed in trash bags, while saturated with chloroform! It's quite common. It was probably some sort of weird fetish experimentation. A self induced death by misadventure, on the victims part. No need to blams my client for that!")

BBM

But, coffin flies were found in the trunk of the car. Just not adult, alive coffin flies.

Page 96, The Debris from the Trunk and Wheel Well Report: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21252257/detail.html p. 96

Q26 Debris from trunk. Plastic box <5% full. Contains plant material; misellaneous hairs and fiber; glitter; intact insect and insect parts; shell fragments; small (largest is ~7 X 5 X 3 mm) peds; isolated granular minerals - predominantly clear, colorless; gray apparent plastic - one piece has metallic silver-colored layer on one side

From page 5 & 6 of the 30 Entomology Report:

Michael Vincent indicated to me that uneclosed and eclosed (hatched) puparia and adult flies were seen in the mother's car trunk during initial entry into the trunk of the car July 16, 2008 and the discovery led to additional searches for insect evidence. Subsequent insect evidence recovery on August 28, 2008 prompted additional examination of items of physical evidence recovered from the car trunk with Vincent recognizing insect larvae and puparia.

Two vials of specimens were sent for initial evaluation on September 9, 2008. These vials contained only larvae and puparia from the phorid fly family. Phoridae, which is a common group of flies know to colonize decomposing animal carrion and other organic material. If possible, species identification should be obtained for further confirmation of the species preference for animal carrion.With this fly family, it is difficult to render species level identification without having adult specimens of the species to identify.

Once intitial family level identification was complete, Vincent was again contacted to ascertain if adults of the specimens were available. Another search of the car trunk turned up negative results for phorid ADULTS. However, it was Vincent who noted he had seen hundreds of the larvae and puparia in the TRASH BAG which had ben sealed as evidence back in August.

There WERE phorid puparia and larvae in both the car trunk and the trash bag.

But the hundreds of them in the trash bag had been stored in a better environment and could be nurtured into adults which could be definitively identified as Megaselia scalaris (which is a member of the order Diptera and the family Phoridae). Phoridae as a group eat animal carrion. But, protein sources are the preferred food of female Megaselia scalaris proceeding maturation of eggs--hungry pregnant Megaselia scalaris want meat not veggies.

There was NO pizza or ANY meat product in the bag of trash.
OCSO forensic reports concerning the trash: http://www.acandyrose.com/caylee_anthony_transcript_Forensics010109pt3.htm

 

[Aedrys]

I understand they wanted Haskall but the State got to him first. Do we know just how much if anything Dr. Huntington disputes the State's expert? I don't remember reading any comments or a deposition from him. Anyone?

You know, I actually feel sorry for Huntington now because it wasn't him that actually said there were no blowflies in the trunk, it was Mason. We don't know even know how Huntington feels about this. And now that Mason's put out that nothing was there, well gee, no pressure on you, Mr. Huntington. If I was him, I would be pretty mad about now.

ETA: I only say this because I don't trust Mason to have read any report by Huntington. More than likely, he made Baez read it and give a summary to him. I doubt either have actually talk to Huntington himself. I could be wrong, but I just don't think it's right for Mason to speak for his expert like that. I felt like it was more a schoolyard response, like "Nuh UH! MY EXPERTS say they weren't there, so HA!"

 

[Solace]

You know, I actually feel sorry for Huntington now because it wasn't him that actually said there were no blowflies in the trunk, it was Mason. We don't know even know how Huntington feels about this. And now that Mason's put out that nothing was there, well gee, no pressure on you, Mr. Huntington. If I was him, I would be pretty mad about now.

ETA: I only say this because I don't trust Mason to have read any report by Huntington. More than likely, he made Baez read it and give a summary to him. I doubt either have actually talk to Huntington himself. I could be wrong, but I just don't think it's right for Mason to speak for his expert like that. I felt like it was more a schoolyard response, like "Nuh UH! MY EXPERTS say they weren't there, so HA!"

I agree Aedrys. I think Cheney has a very sloppy attitude about this case. Remember when he first came aboard, he asked Strickland if he trusted him - and I very much doubt he would do that with Perry. He is absolutely rude to K. Belich and we all know he likes the limelight so why does he act that way with her - because he can and I think he knows they are going to lose the case - but he loves the limelight. Who says they are doing a case because it is "fun". There is nothing fun about a murder of a toddler - and his responding as though the toddler is just an afterthought. IMO anyway.

 

[Purple Iris]

Maybe the defense's "bug guy" has been promised a fancy new Lab named after him, or, his very own "bug farm" in Nebraska; under the table of course.......

 

[logicalgirl]

BBM

But, coffin flies were found in the trunk of the car. Just not adult, alive coffin flies.

Page 96, The Debris from the Trunk and Wheel Well Report: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21252257/detail.html p. 96

From page 5 & 6 of the 30 Entomology Report:
There WERE phorid puparia and larvae in both the car trunk and the trash bag.

But the hundreds of them in the trash bag had been stored in a better environment and could be nurtured into adults which could be definitively identified as Megaselia scalaris (which is a member of the order Diptera and the family Phoridae). Phoridae as a group eat animal carrion. But, protein sources are the preferred food of female Megaselia scalaris proceeding maturation of eggs--hungry pregnant Megaselia scalaris want meat not veggies.

There was NO pizza or ANY meat product in the bag of trash.
OCSO forensic reports concerning the trash: http://www.acandyrose.com/caylee_anthony_transcript_Forensics010109pt3.htm

Thanks Jolynna - I was hollering for you a couple of pages back, and saw you lay this out on the hinky, but no way was I going to attempt to translate it into "myspeak". You are brilliant!

 

[logicalgirl]

I agree Aedrys. I think Cheney has a very sloppy attitude about this case. Remember when he first came aboard, he asked Strickland if he trusted him - and I very much doubt he would do that with Perry. He is absolutely rude to K. Belich and we all know he likes the limelight so why does he act that way with her - because he can and I think he knows they are going to lose the case - but he loves the limelight. Who says they are doing a case because it is "fun". There is nothing fun about a murder of a toddler - and his responding as though the toddler is just an afterthought. IMO anyway.

Let me try to "probe" Mason's mind - Ah, the fog is lifting and all is clear. According to Mason there were no coffin flies in the trunk - they were in the plastic bag in the dumpster. Oh wait - he's adding another thought...it's coming in now.....

The plastic bag was in the dumpster. The plastic bag had the flies in it. Therefore if there was a body it must just have been any old body stuffed in the dumpster - it certainly wasn't Caylee.

There! Problem solved. That Kathi is such a pest - if she'd only listen!

 

[RR0004]

You know, I actually feel sorry for Huntington now because it wasn't him that actually said there were no blowflies in the trunk, it was Mason. We don't know even know how Huntington feels about this. And now that Mason's put out that nothing was there, well gee, no pressure on you, Mr. Huntington. If I was him, I would be pretty mad about now.

ETA: I only say this because I don't trust Mason to have read any report by Huntington. More than likely, he made Baez read it and give a summary to him. I doubt either have actually talk to Huntington himself. I could be wrong, but I just don't think it's right for Mason to speak for his expert like that. I felt like it was more a schoolyard response, like "Nuh UH! MY EXPERTS say they weren't there, so HA!"

Since when does anything that Mason has to say need to be based in truth?

 

[QB.]

I understand they wanted Haskall but the State got to him first. Do we know just how much if anything Dr. Huntington disputes the State's expert? I don't remember reading any comments or a deposition from him. Anyone?

According to the latest WESH article, CM says their expert says there were no coffin flies in the trunk.

Defense: No 'Coffin Flies' In Casey's Trunk
http://www.wesh.com/caseyanthony/25843813/detail.html

"Anthony defense attorney Cheney Mason said the defense disagrees with the finding. Mason said defense experts claim there were no coffin flies in the trunk at all."

As far as I can see they don't name their expert so not sure who is making the claim.

 

[QB.]

Okay, clearly I have fallen behind in the news of this case. This was yesterday's news. So sorry about that.
I still wonder if CM is making the claim that it was TH who disagrees with NH's findings.

 

[nums24]

According to the latest WESH article, CM says their expert says there were no coffin flies in the trunk.

Defense: No 'Coffin Flies' In Casey's Trunk
http://www.wesh.com/caseyanthony/25843813/detail.html

"Anthony defense attorney Cheney Mason said the defense disagrees with the finding. Mason said defense experts claim there were no coffin flies in the trunk at all."

As far as I can see they don't name their expert so not sure who is making the claim.

LOL - you're a little late, we discussed this yesterday.

 

[nums24]

Okay, clearly I have fallen behind in the news of this case. This was yesterday's news. So sorry about that.
I still wonder if CM is making the claim that it was TH who disagrees with NH's findings.

I think CM is mincing words. We have not heard anything from TH, only CM. The bugs don't lie.

 

[logicalgirl]

According to the latest WESH article, CM says their expert says there were no coffin flies in the trunk.

Defense: No 'Coffin Flies' In Casey's Trunk
http://www.wesh.com/caseyanthony/25843813/detail.html

"Anthony defense attorney Cheney Mason said the defense disagrees with the finding. Mason said defense experts claim there were no coffin flies in the trunk at all."

As far as I can see they don't name their expert so not sure who is making the claim.

Yes, but that's coming from Mason and therefore means absolutely nothing. I want to hear that directly from Dr. Huntington if that's who it is. It seems to be the name people are throwing around and because Mason didn't mention the experts name it could simply mean he couldn't remember it.

I think both Mason and Baez took an affirmation course - if you say something often enough then it becomes true. :slap:

 

[logicalgirl]

Okay, clearly I have fallen behind in the news of this case. This was yesterday's news. So sorry about that.
I still wonder if CM is making the claim that it was TH who disagrees with NH's findings.

QB!! I've missed you! :wave:

 

[QB.]

QB!! I've missed you! :wave:

It got very quiet lately and I lost the thread a little (ok, a lot!) on this case. I guess a break was in order. The recent outcome of the Zahra case left me numb and retreating from all these cases.
Is it May yet?

 

[Jolynna]

You know, I actually feel sorry for Huntington now because it wasn't him that actually said there were no blowflies in the trunk, it was Mason. We don't know even know how Huntington feels about this. And now that Mason's put out that nothing was there, well gee, no pressure on you, Mr. Huntington. If I was him, I would be pretty mad about now.

ETA: I only say this because I don't trust Mason to have read any report by Huntington. More than likely, he made Baez read it and give a summary to him. I doubt either have actually talk to Huntington himself. I could be wrong, but I just don't think it's right for Mason to speak for his expert like that. I felt like it was more a schoolyard response, like "Nuh UH! MY EXPERTS say they weren't there, so HA!"

BBM

There were no blow flies in the trunk or trash, except for one dried-up leg.

That is why Haskell said that, "What you DON'T find can be more important that what you do find."

Not finding blow flies means that ICA probably sealed Caylee up in the trunk either just after or even before Caylee died. Otherwise blow flies would have gotten to Caylee's body. By the time Caylee was disposed of on Suburban, Caylee was past the fresh body stage blow flies prefer.

Coffin flies have sponging mouthparts. Their meals must be fluid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaselia_scalaris...scroll down to feeding habits). Coffin flies show up when the bodies are more decomposed. Caylee was not embalmed. Wrapped in plastic, sealed in a hot, humid trunk Caylee's body would have ripened and festered quickly. No sun...no air...just heat, plastic and moisture...and a body full of bacteria--that's a recipe for the kind of aroma that Casey soon complaining to Amy about. A rabidly protein-starved, egg-bearing mama coffin fly would have been onto that smell like white on rice.

I think the bug evidence ABSOLUTELY supports Caylee being in the Pontiac trunk; Caylee going into the trunk right after she died (or even before she died); and that Caylee wasn't disposed of until she was beyond the stage of being a blow fly enticement.

 

[nums24]

Casey Prosecution Expert: Insects Don't Lie

New Video Report:

http://www.wesh.com/r-video/25856064/detail.html

 

[Jolynna]

According to the latest WESH article, CM says their expert says there were no coffin flies in the trunk.

Defense: No 'Coffin Flies' In Casey's Trunk
http://www.wesh.com/caseyanthony/25843813/detail.html

"Anthony defense attorney Cheney Mason said the defense disagrees with the finding. Mason said defense experts claim there were no coffin flies in the trunk at all."

As far as I can see they don't name their expert so not sure who is making the claim.

Mason isn't lying. But, he isn't telling the whole story either.

No ADULT coffin flies were collected alive from the trunk or anything that came out of the trunk.

The coffin fly (Megaselia scalaris) is a member of the order Diptera and the family Phoridae. Larvae and puparia from the phorid fly family were found and collected from BOTH the trunk and trash bag. (pages 5 & 6 of http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/1106/21539770.pdf & page 96 from http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21252257/detail.html ) As was pointed out by Haskell in the Entomology Report to definitively label the species of the larvae and puparia from the phorid family an adult speciman was needed. There were salvagable baby phorid flies in the trash bag. The baby phorid flies were nurtured, raised and grew up to become Coffin Flies. No ADULT, definitively labeled living Megaselia scalaris were found in the trunk although the Pontiac trunk is where the BABY coffin flies (that grew up and became big coffin flies) were found.

Also in the garbage bag with the coffin flies was a Fusian receipt with Nate L.'s signature on it AND a Full Sail application with Casey's handwriting on it. Those are as good as fingerprints in tying ICA in with the coffin fly-infested garbage bag...imo

 

[kaRN]

BBM

But, coffin flies were found in the trunk of the car. Just not adult, alive coffin flies.

Page 96, The Debris from the Trunk and Wheel Well Report: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21252257/detail.html p. 96

From page 5 & 6 of the 30 Entomology Report:
There WERE phorid puparia and larvae in both the car trunk and the trash bag.

But the hundreds of them in the trash bag had been stored in a better environment and could be nurtured into adults which could be definitively identified as Megaselia scalaris (which is a member of the order Diptera and the family Phoridae). Phoridae as a group eat animal carrion. But, protein sources are the preferred food of female Megaselia scalaris proceeding maturation of eggs--hungry pregnant Megaselia scalaris want meat not veggies.

There was NO pizza or ANY meat product in the bag of trash.
OCSO forensic reports concerning the trash: http://www.acandyrose.com/caylee_anthony_transcript_Forensics010109pt3.htm

Ah but the defense is playing with semantics. The trunk is the trunk and the car is the car. They have to say something.
I've been doing some reading on this and the stages are very orderly from beginning to end ust like fetal development at the opposite end of the life cycle.
I bet if there was even an iota of a chance that the defense could poke holes in this science, LKB wouldn't have left for financial reasons.

 

[AZlawyer]

Mason isn't lying. But, he isn't telling the whole story either.

No ADULT coffin flies were collected alive from the trunk or anything that came out of the trunk.

The coffin fly (Megaselia scalaris) is a member of the order Diptera and the family Phoridae. Larvae and puparia from the phorid fly family were found and collected from BOTH the trunk and trash bag. (pages 5 & 6 of http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/1106/21539770.pdf & page 96 from http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21252257/detail.html ) As was pointed out by Haskell in the Entomology Report to definitively label the species of the larvae and puparia from the phorid family an adult speciman was needed. There were salvagable baby phorid flies in the trash bag. The baby phorid flies were nurtured, raised and grew up to become Coffin Flies. No ADULT, definitively labeled living Megaselia scalaris were found in the trunk although the Pontiac trunk is where the BABY coffin flies (that grew up and became big coffin flies) were found.

Also in the garbage bag with the coffin flies was a Fusian receipt with Nate L.'s signature on it AND a Full Sail application with Casey's handwriting on it. Those are as good as fingerprints in tying ICA in with the coffin fly-infested garbage bag...imo

Plus the tow yard guy (and maybe even George) will testify that it is the same bag that the tow yard guy took out of the trunk and tossed into the dumpster. He will be shown the photo of the bag in the dumpster and say, yep, that's the one, I can see the pizza box and the laundry detergent through the bag. Then the police officer will testify that she took the photo of the bag in the dumpster right before taking the bag into custody.