2009.11.06 Forensic Entomology Report Released #2

[The World According]

Don't know much about bugs except for the skitters and black flies here in Ontario but know a snake in the grass when I see one. i.e. JB,DC,GA,CA,CM,LB,AL,LKB,LA,AF,DS and of course ICA. Probably missed a few, apologies. IMHO

:Welcome-12-june::Welcome-12-june::Welcome-12-june:

 

[LancelotLink]

I believe it was Grey Wool slacks, found in the back of the car, covered in mud and smelling of death, that were immediately and repeatedly laundered by CA as soon as GA and CA got the car home.

Am I misremembering that piece of it all.Cindy and Georges obsessive cleaning habits just went to work to clean that gunk and that smell...oopsie!

Slightly OT, but have we had it confirmed by ANYONE other than Lee that George actually washed visitor's cars? As soon as I heard that, my hinky meter pinged. Did he wash Shirley's car? Leonard's RV? The only thing I saw him hose down was protesters.

 

[whiteangora]

I believe it was Grey Wool slacks, found in the back of the car, covered in mud and smelling of death, that were immediately and repeatedly laundered by CA as soon as GA and CA got the car home.

Am I misremembering that piece of it all.Cindy and Georges obsessive cleaning habits just went to work to clean that gunk and that smell...oopsie!

bbm

I had read about the slacks smelling like the car, but "covered in mud"? This is something new to me. wow

 

[The World According]

bbm

I had read about the slacks smelling like the car, but "covered in mud"? This is something new to me. wow

IIRC, there is no mud mentioned in the discovery. I could be wrong, but my memory is that Cindy is the one who told the detectives about the pants.
The account we have regarding the slacks is only from mom and all she said is they smelled like the car so she put them in the wash, period. If someone has something from the discovery that details they had mud on them, that would be a bombshell. If we read it in the news or on one of the talk shoes it was discussed, you must take that with a grain of salt. Don't believe it unless you read it in the discovery. Unfortunatlely, the news often gets details wrong and God knows the talk shows do, repeatedly.

 

[denjet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiVt6AA0z_E

Hindsight's a wonderful thing so makes it specially interesting to go back and listen to comments made by Dr Huntington (around 5.50sec) just 3 days after Caylee's remains were found. The entomologist talks about the importance of getting to examine evidence as soon as possible, as he puts it, "in context". Even for me, that's a no brainer. But, then it occurred to me that up until this point only Henry Lee had looked at the car. From the information available, we have recently learned that Dr Huntington or might be Baez declined an offer to examine evidence, alongside Dr Haskel and that the first time Dr Huntington reviewed anything relating to the death mobile was July this year, whilst at OCSD. We later learned from Baez, that he was unable to achieve what he wanted, as he didnt have the correct microscope/s with him. Hello.... :wave: If I'm wrong about this, could someone please let me know.

Now, if this is so, I'm not blaming the good doctor, we know Baez sat on his hands for nearly two years, but was this year's visit to OCSD the first time Dr Huntington looked at the car trunk/ trash bag and the insects recovered therein? If so, would imo make Dr Huntington more than a bit vulnerable to a savvy prosecutor......should ,we ever have a battle of the bug men. I'm not suggesting it will happen , just asking for your thoughts about what seems to be an absurd time lapse and the concerns, Dr Huntington expresses in this 2008 video.

Couldn't agree with you more! There was absolutely no reason for that amount of time to go by ... If I were a juror and the prosecutor pointed that out, I would seriously question the reliability of the results ... IMO this also applies to evidence that the defense is just getting around to examining ... It just doesn't make sense to just be beginning to examine and test the evidence ...

 

[countzero]

I am of the belief, two years later and how many pages of docs and media junkets, that ICA did NOT wear those gray slacks when Caylee was tossed into the woods. I do not recall anyone stating they witnessed ICA in that outfit after June 16, 08 and I do not believe GAs statement of that day either.

I think ICA wore casual clothes most of the time during that 31 days and kept the gray slacks in the Pontiac in case she needed to quickly change prior to going into the A compound if she saw GAs vehicle at the A compound.

Remember, she was in a tank top and shorts by that evening with TonyL in blockbusters.

Whatever clothing she was wearing, ICA no doubt tossed them into the nearest trash can with no immediate witnesses to view and ask questions about.

 

[watcher9]

Thank you, thank you and thank you. Once wasn't enough.

We don't know what she was wearing except for when she was video'd. I can't believe what GA and CA say, even about finding the pants that CA said she washed over and over. Have we received any report on tests done on ICA's clothes in the closet that were taken?

ICA was in shorts and a tank top Monday evening. We know that. What was she wearing on Sunday? Did she even change clothes for the Monday video? CA or GA would know. If she did, was it before or after she got to Tony's?

If Caylee died the night before, the day of or the night after, ICA didn't care. She just left Caylee in the trunk to go about doing her thing.

I think when the decomp progressed to the point of fluids and smells was when ICA tried to bag her. That's the first time I think ICA's clothes may have got decomp on them. Since that was at the house, did she jump in the pool or the shower to clean off and change clothes? The second time was when she threw Caylee into the woods. Where are those clothes?

Uh oh, I just realized this is the wrong thread.....

 

[countzero]

Hi watcher9,
right or wrong thread .... CA, GA and LA will NEVER admit to the actual articles of clothing ICA wore on or before June 15, 2008 to anyone. And yes, they remember specifically what ICA wore than Sunday evening. It is imprinted in CA's brain cells forever just as what Caylee was wearing that evening as well. Only now CA can envision the bugs and Caylee's small bones being in those clothes. And still they keep the truth quiet.

I hope CA has vivid dreams every night about the Caylee's clothing as well as what she herself was wearing. Won't happen but I can wish for it.

Back on topic: I now believe that IF those gray slacks were in the Pontiac they had some coffin wax on them as well small coffin flies. Not enough to gross CA out but enough that CA knew what it was and meant and couldn't take the chance to toss them in the trash since she knew LE would be involved eventually. Because CA removed them we don't know exactly where they were in the Pontiac. Carp, we don't even know if they were in the Pontiac.

The only item(s) we are positive the SAO has, that CA no doubt has issues with to this date, is the trash bag GA pointed out in the trunk to the tow yard guy. If only GA had kept his mouth shut, that bag would have disappeared long before LE was involved. And that is probably the biggest regret CA has; not taking control of that dang damaging trash bag. Instead she got rid of the evidence on the slacks if there were slacks and called the coffin flies maggots on rotten pizza. Only CA could come up with that .....

There was nothing found on ICA's clothing to answer your question.

 

[watcher9]

It doesn't look like any of the Anthonys will admit to the truth, but I would like to believe that before the trial starts, they will break down.

It is a good thing though that LE does have the bag because of the paper towels and all the bugs discovered in it. Thank the Lord for the honest tow yard owner.

Dr Haskell said that coffin flies are about the size of gnats so I would think being in the bag made it easier for them to be found. I can't even imagine them being found at the site.

As far as the paper towels, it would have taken a ton of them to clean the trunk as thoroughly as it was, but from what I remember of the evidence it only showed a few. I can only think that they were all tossed after ICA did the original cleaning when Caylee was taken out to be bagged. After Caylee was thrown away, ICA used a few more towels to wipe her hands and make that final cleaning of decomp and bugs from the trunk and those were the paper towels left in the bag.

If she had tossed those also, we would have lost all that evidence too. Can they get fingerprints off of paper towels?

 

[Itsy]

Fingerprints off of paper towels...I kinda doubt it, but DNA - yes IF she wasn't wearing gloves. I'm hoping and praying that this is one of the (many) things being held back until trial.

 

[LambChop]

Fingerprints off of paper towels...I kinda doubt it, but DNA - yes IF she wasn't wearing gloves. I'm hoping and praying that this is one of the (many) things being held back until trial.

If it's not released in discovery it can't be used at trial. If we don't see it (unless it was released to JB and he had it sealed) we won't see it at trial.

 

[Just Jayla]

If it's not released in discovery it can't be used at trial. If we don't see it (unless it was released to JB and he had it sealed) we won't see it at trial.

AZlawyer covered this more thoroughly on another thread, maybe the legal ?'s thread...but IIRC, we would more than likely have seen a motion to seal in the case records. Although I think AZ wrote that there's a small possibility that we might not see a motion in the records.
I know we are generally on top of the records, but I will go check again now and see how many/if there are any motions to seal, and if so, when they were filed-Will get back to yas in a few...

 

[Just Jayla]

AZlawyer covered this more thoroughly on another thread, maybe the legal ?'s thread...but IIRC, we would more than likely have seen a motion to seal in the case records. Although I think AZ wrote that there's a small possibility that we might not see a motion in the records.
I know we are generally on top of the records, but I will go check again now and see how many/if there are any motions to seal, and if so, when they were filed-Will get back to yas in a few...

ETA-There are several dates where the clerk lists that "various motions" were heard. Whether or not motions to seal are within the various, not sure yes or no. But, it looks like when JB filed for protective orders, or to restrict disclosure (like the autopsy photos), or to seal something, the motions were listed clearly in the case/docket notes. When the state filed an order to seal earlier this year (I believe it was re: Maya and Robin, when the state wanted more time to "complete the investigation") that is also listed.

Nothing specific to sealing buggy info...

Interesting note for 01/22/2009, motion to seal for in-camera inspection. This may have been in regards to DC's video, but how can we be sure that other items were not presented to JS to be sealed?

There is also this one:

06/17/2009 Notice of Provision of Documents Under Seal for In Camera Inspection. Re: Autopsy Reports

???

This is right before the hearing where it was determined that the autopsy report could be released.

 

[LambChop]

And I am thinking that anything really, really damning JB would be on top of to get it sealed.

 

[AZlawyer]

Fingerprints off of paper towels...I kinda doubt it, but DNA - yes IF she wasn't wearing gloves. I'm hoping and praying that this is one of the (many) things being held back until trial.

As LambChop mentioned, nothing can be held back until trial.

But in any event we already received the DNA results from the napkins/paper towels (Q248) and there was no recoverable DNA.

 

[faefrost]

If it's not released in discovery it can't be used at trial. If we don't see it (unless it was released to JB and he had it sealed) we won't see it at trial.

I believe there are a few very specific categories of items or documentation that are essentially automatically sealed under Florida's Sunshine Laws. Primarily Autopsy and Remains photos and any evidence involving the sexual assault of a minor. Everything else gets released in a timely manner. At this late stage I think we can be fairly certain that there are no more surprises involving the physical evidence of the actual crime. The reports are all back, the investigators have closed the case, it is in the hands of the prosecutors. Anything else that will come out from here will be things such as Witness depositions or evidence involving ongoing "post crime" antics such as the jail house letters or the LB nonsense. With the physical evidence and forensics really the only thing new we should be seeing (or hearing about more likely) at trial will be the photos of Caylee's remains and the autopsy.

 

[logicalgirl]

I am of the belief, two years later and how many pages of docs and media junkets, that ICA did NOT wear those gray slacks when Caylee was tossed into the woods. I do not recall anyone stating they witnessed ICA in that outfit after June 16, 08 and I do not believe GAs statement of that day either.

I think ICA wore casual clothes most of the time during that 31 days and kept the gray slacks in the Pontiac in case she needed to quickly change prior to going into the A compound if she saw GAs vehicle at the A compound.

Remember, she was in a tank top and shorts by that evening with TonyL in blockbusters.

Whatever clothing she was wearing, ICA no doubt tossed them into the nearest trash can with no immediate witnesses to view and ask questions about.

I can't even guess what clothes ICA was wearing when she so callously threw little Caylee's decomposing body into the bushes off the road, but I completely agree about the gray pants. I've never thought those were the clothes she was wearing during that time on that day. While ICA clearly wasn't the brightest bulb, she made some effort with paper towels etc in the trunk, so it makes no sense at all she would leave soiled clothing in the passenger part of the car. I assumed because the whole car smelled so terrible, the smell permeated some clothing left behind as countzero said, for her to pretend she was coming in from work. I thought it was the smell CA was trying to get rid of - not decomp gunk.

 

[Solace]

I can't even guess what clothes ICA was wearing when she so callously threw little Caylee's decomposing body into the bushes off the road, but I completely agree about the gray pants. I've never thought those were the clothes she was wearing during that time on that day. While ICA clearly wasn't the brightest bulb, she made some effort with paper towels etc in the trunk, so it makes no sense at all she would leave soiled clothing in the passenger part of the car. I assumed because the whole car smelled so terrible, the smell permeated some clothing left behind as countzero said, for her to pretend she was coming in from work. I thought it was the smell CA was trying to get rid of - not decomp gunk.

From experience, I will tell you the odor permeates and gets into everything, everything - even paper.

I am amazed that she even bothered with the paper towels. It is incredible the lengths this woman went to in implicating herself. I realize sociopaths do things without thinking of the repercussions but this is beyond the beyond. She uses paper towels to clean up the trunk and leaves them in the trunk.

I wonder if they have ever done a study on sociopaths and intelligence because they come off as having none at all. I realize that one of their symptoms is rash behaviour to their own detriment but this is mind boggling - the lies and behaviour and then Cindy and George and Lee back it up.

 

[ZsaZsa]

From experience, I will tell you the odor permeates and gets into everything, everything - even paper.

I am amazed that she even bothered with the paper towels. It is incredible the lengths this woman went to in implicating herself. I realize sociopaths do things without thinking of the repercussions but this is beyond the beyond. She uses paper towels to clean up the trunk and leaves them in the trunk.

I wonder if they have ever done a study on sociopaths and intelligence because they come off as having none at all. I realize that one of their symptoms is rash behaviour to their own detriment but this is mind boggling - the lies and behaviour and then Cindy and George and Lee back it up.

But she was so used to doing anything she wanted, including theft, without any consequences, that for her, that behavior was pretty SOP. She may have thought the smell would fade,(most things do after time) if she could just leave the car there long enough. I didn't know ( and neither did she apparently) that you can expect to have an abandoned car towed after three days... that REALLY messed up her plans.

 

[logicalgirl]

From experience, I will tell you the odor permeates and gets into everything, everything - even paper.

I am amazed that she even bothered with the paper towels. It is incredible the lengths this woman went to in implicating herself. I realize sociopaths do things without thinking of the repercussions but this is beyond the beyond. She uses paper towels to clean up the trunk and leaves them in the trunk.

I wonder if they have ever done a study on sociopaths and intelligence because they come off as having none at all. I realize that one of their symptoms is rash behaviour to their own detriment but this is mind boggling - the lies and behaviour and then Cindy and George and Lee back it up.

I wonder if ICA made too many assumptions - like she expected the car to be stolen from Amscot - not just sit there until it was towed and impounded. Or if she would claim someone else used it during the time she last was in possession of the car and it was picked up. Once she realized she couldn't not get the smell out of the trunk - she simply gave up the cleaning part and abandoned it to be someone else's problem.