Have not read beyond this post but I recall LE taking several vacuum cleaners from the Anthony's home, I believe just after the remains were found on Dec 11. IMO.
2009.11.06 Forensic Entomology Report Released #2
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Have not read beyond this post but I recall LE taking several vacuum cleaners from the Anthony's home, I believe just after the remains were found on Dec 11. IMO.
joypath
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:twocents: Completely NORMAL~ This is EXACTLY the way it should function by both sides so each scientific specialist (or any testifying expert, for that matter!:innocent
will be able to discuss, agree or argue significant points of reference in the report or deposition. :banghead: For example, a ME will read the other pathologist's report, provide to the SA key points of questioning :waitasec: from that report (IF ASKED TO DO SO!:rocker
and then read the deposition materials prior to testifying.:seeya:shellsbells
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It is very normal and appropriate.
Thanks AZ! I would be so lost without your amazing contributions
mitzi
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Didn't we read a long time ago that the maggots from the bag or the trunk were sent to the FBI for analysis of what was in their stomachs that they had recently been eating on? (hard to type that,
)So maybe the FBI still has this info? I'm wondering if there is quite a bit of discovery not yet given by the FBI...maybe JA and LDB are gonna get their own "aha moment."
krisskross
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During Dr Huntington's second deposition, Jeff Ashton referred to the vacuum sweepings as from the trunk. I doubt he would do this if they came from a vacuum cleaner of the Anthonys. That would be a leap :waitasec: that the defense would be entitled to and imo would most certainly dispute.
I think these sweepings were taken by CSI Michael Vincent.
Im hoping they will find hundreds of insects in these sweepings which then favours Dr Haskel, conclusions. We have to wonder why this evidence apparently got overlooked. But better late than never.
Dr Huntington takes issue with Dr Haskel's report where he talks of insects found in the trunk. Could be an important distinction at trial.
Thanks, Krisskross. That did eventually become clear. What was puzzling was the mention of Cindy Anthony vacuuming the trunk in the recently released report. Perhaps that was mentioned to indicate that despite that, CSI was still able to find evidence.
AZlawyer
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Didn't we read a long time ago that the maggots from the bag or the trunk were sent to the FBI for analysis of what was in their stomachs that they had recently been eating on? (hard to type that,
So maybe the FBI still has this info? I'm wondering if there is quite a bit of discovery not yet given by the FBI...maybe JA and LDB are gonna get their own "aha moment."
My concern is that I think we did NOT read that any insects were sent for stomach analysis. I think we kept talking about it because we were wondering why it apparently did NOT happen.
pip
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I remember reading that maggots were on the evidence collected list, could it be possible that testing has been done but has yet to be released? Also, a question for Joypath.. what materials would they be looking for in the stomachs of the maggots? Wouldn't DNA breakdown in digestion after such a length of time that the body was no longer in the trunk? I am wondering also if DNA on the maggots rather than in, would be something they tested for as well, since they were in contact with the decomp? Have we seen any reports at all as to some type maggot testing? Wouldn't it be odd to not run some tests?My concern is that I think we did NOT read that any insects were sent for stomach analysis. I think we kept talking about it because we were wondering why it apparently did NOT happen.
joypath
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:woohoo: GREAT QUESTIONS! :woohoo:
With a "fresh kill" it is relatively easy :innocent: (as easy as science ever gets!) to isolate information from insects BUT with this case, a huge time frame (consider it to be GENERATIONS of insect development!:banghead: ) had passed and the insects were going to be more helpful in establishing a ?TOD or a possible ?COD vs providing a DNA profile. Yep, the insect digestive process over an extended time period would impact significantly DNA recovery. :truce:
The decomposition fluid itself does NOT contain DNA (DNA is contained within the nucleus of cellular material {skin,leukocytes,oral mucosa, etc}) so an insect immersed in decomp MIGHT NOT have DNA contact.
:twocents: I:innocent: have NOT SEEN any reports YET regarding ANY analytical work-ups of ANY INSECTS recovered at ANY crime scene. IMHO, IF they exist, then the defense experts should have produced a rebuttal report within the last set of disclosures or at least SOMEBODY should have discussed SOMETHING within SOMEBODY'S deposition process.:crazy: SO, I'm :seeya: going to take the "ASSUME" road and assume that the State :rocker:felt that nothing of value would be achieved by INTERNAL examination of the "critters":waitasec:.
:twocents: PS::floorlaugh: I HATE icky "critters", this is my "Achilles' heel" :sick::sick::sick:
pip
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Thanks for the answers Joypath! You rock :rocker:
LambChop
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I would imagine CA hates them, too. You can see in some of the pictures of the trunk liner that it had been vacuumed as the sweep lines are still visible. Plus the fact that the trunk was left open in the garage so any live flying insects would have been long gone. And didn't both CA and GA say the trunk was full of maggots and flies. GA said he could hear them popping. So the trash bag was removed and whatever was left in the trunk was cleaned, thoroughly cleaned. I would imagine there were probably more hairs with death bands and more, many more insects before "Mrs. Clean" sweep through there. jmo
PMLsmom
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Wanted to bump this thread up. If this has already been mentioned, please disregard...Was watching Snapped this am, and Dr. Haskell put another woman in prison with LWOP with the coffin flies, Brookey Lee West (NV), back in 2001. It was stated that it was premeditated because her mother had to be placed in the garbage can immediately/if not before death because of the coffin flies.Just one article about her case below. Google comes up with a lot more.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/science/12file-fly.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/science/12file-fly.html
Harmony 2
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I read through this whole thread again this afternoon... I know, I know, I am crazy :crazy:
Here are the numbers of very informative posts that may come in handy when the trial rolls around... The starred ones have information that is especially important to know or are an excellent summary of facts.
Musikman #1
Jolynna #23
Magic-cat #29
Chiquita71 #64
Chiquita71 #72
Chiquita71 #137
Jolynna #148
Hot Dogs #169
Jolynna #175
Lizzysf #215
Jolynna #233
* Jolynna #242
* Jolynna #243
* Jolynna #247
* Jolynna #251
AZlawyer #265
essies #267
* cloud9 #275
* AZlawyer #287
* AZlawyer #293
* AZlawyer #299
Treeseeker #321
Jolynna #336
treeseeker #341
eidetic #349
Jolynna #366
3doglady #422
*Azlawyer #541
*Azlawyer #543
LiveLaughLove #553
Here are the numbers of very informative posts that may come in handy when the trial rolls around... The starred ones have information that is especially important to know or are an excellent summary of facts.
Musikman #1
Jolynna #23
Magic-cat #29
Chiquita71 #64
Chiquita71 #72
Chiquita71 #137
Jolynna #148
Hot Dogs #169
Jolynna #175
Lizzysf #215
Jolynna #233
* Jolynna #242
* Jolynna #243
* Jolynna #247
* Jolynna #251
AZlawyer #265
essies #267
* cloud9 #275
* AZlawyer #287
* AZlawyer #293
* AZlawyer #299
Treeseeker #321
Jolynna #336
treeseeker #341
eidetic #349
Jolynna #366
3doglady #422
*Azlawyer #541
*Azlawyer #543
LiveLaughLove #553
Kat
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This is the actual report.
I added links to the posts. Thanks for researching that harmony.
DawnTCB
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I am not sure this is the right thread but it is an idea I had after listening to Huntington today.
After researching the coffin flies, I see that these flies typically reproduce at 22-24 degrees Celsius (71-75 degrees Fahrenheit), with their optimum temperature 28 degrees Celsius (82 degrees Fahrenheit).
Now a car trunk can get really hot. I went to several websites which show that a car trunk in the sun can get to 140 degrees, but I saw ranges from 112 degrees to 171 degrees.
Then I was hearing about this termite treatment where they heat an entire house to 56 degrees Celsius (132 degrees Fahrenheit) to kill the bugs and their larvae, here's a place that does this treatment.
So I know nothing about these bugs, but when Dr. Haskell testified, I could imagine these flies "smelling" the decomposition from miles away, zooming the scene, but milling about outside the car because they couldn't find a way in. Then I figured the ones that did find their way in would cook in the heat. In any case, flies in that heat would not be able to reproduce "optimally", in any case.
But Huntington didn't mention it at all...? Maybe September in Nebraska would be closer to this optimum temperature in a trunk. I think 140 degrees was too hot for them.
I also felt like this would be a complicated scenario to replicate scientifically... I think this is a very small amount of leakage and it was fairly well-contained. I think ICA cleaned this car, at least with a vacuum and if there were dead bugs she probably got some of them out. I agree with the previous posters that she would not have dumped this car without making some attempts to clear the smell out first. She couldn't afford another car and even if she took all of Amy's money it would not have paid for a car she would have been ok to be seen in. I think she probably made several efforts to clean this trunk before she gave up.
For these reasons, the lack of flies means nothing to me. :dunno:
After researching the coffin flies, I see that these flies typically reproduce at 22-24 degrees Celsius (71-75 degrees Fahrenheit), with their optimum temperature 28 degrees Celsius (82 degrees Fahrenheit).
Now a car trunk can get really hot. I went to several websites which show that a car trunk in the sun can get to 140 degrees, but I saw ranges from 112 degrees to 171 degrees.
Then I was hearing about this termite treatment where they heat an entire house to 56 degrees Celsius (132 degrees Fahrenheit) to kill the bugs and their larvae, here's a place that does this treatment.
So I know nothing about these bugs, but when Dr. Haskell testified, I could imagine these flies "smelling" the decomposition from miles away, zooming the scene, but milling about outside the car because they couldn't find a way in. Then I figured the ones that did find their way in would cook in the heat. In any case, flies in that heat would not be able to reproduce "optimally", in any case.
But Huntington didn't mention it at all...? Maybe September in Nebraska would be closer to this optimum temperature in a trunk. I think 140 degrees was too hot for them.
I also felt like this would be a complicated scenario to replicate scientifically... I think this is a very small amount of leakage and it was fairly well-contained. I think ICA cleaned this car, at least with a vacuum and if there were dead bugs she probably got some of them out. I agree with the previous posters that she would not have dumped this car without making some attempts to clear the smell out first. She couldn't afford another car and even if she took all of Amy's money it would not have paid for a car she would have been ok to be seen in. I think she probably made several efforts to clean this trunk before she gave up.
For these reasons, the lack of flies means nothing to me. :dunno:
BritsKate
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Copying this from another thread...it's more relevant here:
Just putting together what has actually been testified to...
1. There was chloroform found in the trunk. (Vass and FBI chemist)
2. No tests have been conducted to find out what effect a large volume of chloroform would have on early colonization insects. (Huntington)
3. There were gas cans stored in Casey's trunk. (GA)
4. Presumably because no test has been performed on what effect a large volume of chloroform would have on decompositional insect activity no test has been performed to show the effect of chloroform and gas. (just me
)
5. The trunk was opened several times. (Simon Barker, CA, GA)
6. The trash bag was removed from the trunk and thrown into the tow yard dumpster. (Simon Barker and GA)
7. Huntington attempted to compare his study to this case - however climate and conditions are so different I am not certain any conclusions can be drawn. Certainly not for me.
8. Casey had access to the vehicle at the time of complaining of the smell to Amy.
9. CA admitted to cleaning the vehicle.
10. It is NOT known how airtight the trunk was. (I think Vass and perhaps Haskell both testified to this? Maybe? Huntington was never asked if the vehicle he conducted his experiment in was similar in either make or model to Casey's. If he was I missed it.)
11. The body being triple bagged. (thanks for the reminder Dead Cat)
At the end of the day what it boils down for me is this: a body did decompose in the back of that car and all the factors involved - gas, clean up, chloroform, removal of the body, airing of the trunk, tampering with evidence all adds up to there being less insect activity than 'normal' in early stages of decomp. JMHO from an admittedly non-scientific mind.
Just putting together what has actually been testified to...
1. There was chloroform found in the trunk. (Vass and FBI chemist)
2. No tests have been conducted to find out what effect a large volume of chloroform would have on early colonization insects. (Huntington)
3. There were gas cans stored in Casey's trunk. (GA)
4. Presumably because no test has been performed on what effect a large volume of chloroform would have on decompositional insect activity no test has been performed to show the effect of chloroform and gas. (just me
)5. The trunk was opened several times. (Simon Barker, CA, GA)
6. The trash bag was removed from the trunk and thrown into the tow yard dumpster. (Simon Barker and GA)
7. Huntington attempted to compare his study to this case - however climate and conditions are so different I am not certain any conclusions can be drawn. Certainly not for me.
8. Casey had access to the vehicle at the time of complaining of the smell to Amy.
9. CA admitted to cleaning the vehicle.
10. It is NOT known how airtight the trunk was. (I think Vass and perhaps Haskell both testified to this? Maybe? Huntington was never asked if the vehicle he conducted his experiment in was similar in either make or model to Casey's. If he was I missed it.)
11. The body
being triple bagged. (thanks for the reminder Dead Cat)At the end of the day what it boils down for me is this: a body did decompose in the back of that car and all the factors involved - gas, clean up, chloroform, removal of the body, airing of the trunk, tampering with evidence all adds up to there being less insect activity than 'normal' in early stages of decomp. JMHO from an admittedly non-scientific mind.
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