2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[wenwe4]

The enhanced photos we are looking at were taken before the piece was cut out of the carpet. The cut-out piece removed a large portion of the image.

So what is it exactly that is preventing the image to come across the chest other arm area? Was there something underneath her in the trunk that had a straight edge? I don't think the liner ends right there (maybe I am wrong)

 

[AZlawyer]

So what is it exactly that is preventing the image to come across the chest other arm area? Was there something underneath her in the trunk that had a straight edge? I don't think the liner ends right there (maybe I am wrong)

If you can find the original LE images, there is no straight edge there. IMO it is an artifact of JWG's process of enhancement.

 

[CarrieSis]

Thank you AZ That actually does help me w/the working theory. I can see that now that you've pointed it out. Unfortunately, I don't see any sleeve hem markings at all, esp up near the shoulder as this was a cap sleeve style T that would have been small and short on Caylee at the time - or the hemline of the bottom of the T, but I do appear to see what resembles the navel.

Could the shirt have decomposed to the point that the B made an imprint when this image formed, but the cotton and natural materials of the shirt did not make any imprint? Maybe?

 

[AZlawyer]

Thank you AZ That actually does help me w/the working theory. I can see that now that you've pointed it out. Unfortunately, I don't see any sleeve hem markings at all, esp up near the shoulder as this was a cap sleeve style T that would have been small and short on Caylee at the time - or the hemline of the bottom of the T, but I do appear to see what resembles the navel.

Could the shirt have decomposed to the point that the B made an imprint when this image formed, but the cotton and natural materials of the shirt did not make any imprint? Maybe?

I think the shirt was such a thin cotton that the decomp fluid just went through it. Also, in the original LE images, IIRC, the chest area is dark in the pictures where the arms and knee show up really well. That area had to be enhanced differently to show up, and then JWG combined the enhanced photos.

 

[LCoastMom]

The T was in shreds, from their condition I believe Caylee's back was lying flush against something - as a square of fabric was still attached to the torn collar - the rest of the shirt was just pieces.

The shorts were mostly intact (at least the view from the front with a button) making me wonder if they were tossed into the bag - so she was wearing a pull-up and T-shirt, judging by the conditions of the items found.

 

[TallyHo]

Well. Now that you mention it. :innocent:

Just a little bit below the end of the "chest" arrow on JWG/BJB's enhancement, I see a backward letter "B," right where the "B" in "TROUBLE" would have been on the "BIG TROUBLE" T-shirt found at the scene (with one seam still attached to Caylee's skeleton). The letters were made from a much tougher material than the shirt, which is why they survived the swamp and most of the shirt did not.

View attachment 14310

View attachment 14311

ETA: Ha. Not sure now. Maybe it's where the "R" in TROUBLE would be. I suck at spatial relationships.

ETA2: But I think it's the B...anyone better at this than I am?

I doubt if I am any better at spatial relationships that you are, but I'll take a stab at it! If I am looking at these pictures right, Caylee was lying on her left side, which would put the opposite side of the shirt down against the carpet. I see what you are seeing as a possible B, but I am thinking it would be more likely the "e" from Trouble or the "s" from Packages. I can see either of those 2 letters forming a similar shape to what I see (best in JWG's original composite). That image is so real looking that my brain keeps wanting to see it as being in 3D, but then I try to remember it was an impression of one side only! Am I making sense at all?? I promise I haven't had a glass of wine tonight - yet!! But I can manage to make no sense all on my own!

 

[Swancat63]

I think that the image we see in the foot area is both feet. Laying one foot on top of the other but not aligned causing a distorted image. Laying on the left side with both legs together, one foot slightly higher or lower than the other. But I think it's both feet that we see. Moo

 

[JWG]

If you can find the original LE images, there is no straight edge there. IMO it is an artifact of JWG's process of enhancement.

Yes ... it was an artifact in that one of the images was cropped at the "line" that appears in the combined image. Remember, what I did was take several images and align them as layers within Photoshop. Some images covered more of the trunk than others.

 

[aspiring drifter]

Yes ... it was an artifact in that one of the images was cropped at the "line" that appears in the combined image. Remember, what I did was take several images and align them as layers within Photoshop. Some images covered more of the trunk than others.

i forgot you said you overlapped the images...you're friggin AWESOME!!!!!!!!

 

[wenwe4]

Yes ... it was an artifact in that one of the images was cropped at the "line" that appears in the combined image. Remember, what I did was take several images and align them as layers within Photoshop. Some images covered more of the trunk than others.

Thank You so much for all the work you put into this image!!! I am in awe of your work - you rock!!!!:rocker:

Did you happen to find a picture of the wtp blanket and do the same thing? I am still looking for pics of that and can only seem to find one picture. Not trying to stray ot - but i believe those pics could be extremely telling.

here is the one pic i can find

http://s439.photobucket.com/albums/...leecross/?action=view&current=Cindydepo26.jpg

 

[cloud9]

I am so sorry for the OT but the thread for this is locked. Anyway,

Dr. Ken Furton, Florida International University...

Is he a /the dean of this university? And I was wondering how much he contributes to decisions, testings, etc. there?

Thank you!

 

[Chiquita71]

The position exactly mimicks how my 2 3/4 year old slept at the time - butt in the air, legs crossed, and well... she would self-soothe with her hand in the front of the diaper area. (Follow along, I don't want to say it outright.) The other hand was usually up near her face or cuddled around her doll.

Not explained still: why naked? And if sleeping, no explanation for duct tape unless I return to my original theory that she was duct-taped shortly after she was deceased to mimic a kidnapping and cover an accidental death/negligent death. (see: 1 Tree Hill episode, Zanny abduction lies, etc). However it's my understanding there is some science that proves she was taped pre-mortem. To fit my entire theory together with the trash bags etc would require it to be placed post-purge which is not "shortly after deceased".

I need to go revisit the threads on the duct tape. This section has gotten so huge though! Before I go digging, does anyone happen to know offhand where the report on how/why we know it was placed before death is?

Found: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19801867/detail.html page 3

Still leaves me questions. "before decomposition" - before stage 1, or before stage 2, or (unknown parameter?). The body would still be intact to be duct taped before significant decomposition occured, but would it be intact enough at 2.6 days? 1 day? 6 hours? 2 hours? Unknown...

Respectfully Quoted CarrieSis
BBM

What you have written and I have put in bold I am using because you sparked what I am thinking. :tyou:

If Casey drugged Caylee first with cold medicine or chloroform, (and I keep thinking Casey had Caylee in the car seat at one point)she would have been "sleeping" when Casey put the duct tape on her face. IIRC, someone(JoyPath?)said that a person who has been drugged wouldn't(might not)react to the loss of air if they were unconscious. So, here we have a drugged Caylee with Casey applying the three layers of duct tape over her airways to make sure that if Caylee were to awake from the (Casey made sure to give what she thought was a) lethal dose, but put the duct tape on to be sure.

Along with this idea my mind goes to Caylee being wrapped in the Winnie the Pooh blanket as Casey carries a "sleeping" drugged Caylee out to the car to put her in the car seat. I think Cindy was gone at work and George was busy being George. I think Casey withheld Caylee from George in the morning, he did not eat breakfast with her and since he said at one point he had put Caylee in her car seat and waved goodbye, I figure that is a lie. Casey might have marched by George or waited till he was in the backyard/going to the restroom, etc. there are many ways Casey could have carried a drugged Caylee out to her car and put her in the car seat. (in my theory based on all the work of other WS).

Casey grabbed a knife from home to take with her to cut the duct tape, and grabs garbage bags that are in the garage. She drove the car to where she could get in the back seat and put the tape on unconscious Caylee(who looks like a sleeping child in a car seat). When the tape is applied, Casey gets Caylee out of the car seat and into the trunk. Then Casey drives to Tony's where she parks the car and goes to Blockbuster Video with Tony in his Jeep.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6285978&posted=1#post6285978

ETA: I think George and Cindy may have figured this out, and that is why the conflicting stories for the morning of June 16. Why Cindy made the statement that she listened through the door and could hear both of them "breathing." This statement lends credence to the idea that Casey had Caylee in her room on the night of the 15th because there was a fight. In most statements it seems like Caylee would sleep with Cindy in her room, but if Casey and Cindy had a fight over Caylee on the night of the 15th-Casey may have ran into her room with her. This is when Casey could have, in anger now, given Caylee way too much of a dose of something so that she would be quiet/to kill her.

 

[shotgun09]

Respectfully Quoted CarrieSis
BBM

What you have written and I have put in bold I am using because you sparked what I am thinking. :tyou:

If Casey drugged Caylee first with cold medicine or chloroform, (and I keep thinking Casey had Caylee in the car seat at one point)she would have been "sleeping" when Casey put the duct tape on her face. IIRC, someone(JoyPath?)said that a person who has been drugged wouldn't(might not)react to the loss of air if they were unconscious. So, here we have a drugged Caylee with Casey applying the three layers of duct tape over her airways to make sure that if Caylee were to awake from the (Casey made sure to give what she thought was a) lethal dose, but put the duct tape on to be sure.

Along with this idea my mind goes to Caylee being wrapped in the Winnie the Pooh blanket as Casey carries a "sleeping" drugged Caylee out to the car to put her in the car seat. I think Cindy was gone at work and George was busy being George. I think Casey withheld Caylee from George in the morning, he did not eat breakfast with her and since he said at one point he had put Caylee in her car seat and waved goodbye, I figure that is a lie. Casey might have marched by George or waited till he was in the backyard/going to the restroom, etc. there are many ways Casey could have carried a drugged Caylee out to her car and put her in the car seat. (in my theory based on all the work of other WS).

Casey grabbed a knife from home to take with her to cut the duct tape, and grabs garbage bags that are in the garage. She drove the car to where she could get in the back seat and put the tape on unconscious Caylee(who looks like a sleeping child in a car seat). When the tape is applied, Casey gets Caylee out of the car seat and into the trunk. Then Casey drives to Tony's where she parks the car and goes to Blockbuster Video with Tony in his Jeep.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6285978&posted=1#post6285978

ETA: I think George and Cindy may have figured this out, and that is why the conflicting stories for the morning of June 16. Why Cindy made the statement that she listened through the door and could hear both of them "breathing." This statement lends credence to the idea that Casey had Caylee in her room on the night of the 15th because there was a fight. In most statements it seems like Caylee would sleep with Cindy in her room, but if Casey and Cindy had a fight over Caylee on the night of the 15th-Casey may have ran into her room with her. This is when Casey could have, in anger now, given Caylee way too much of a dose of something so that she would be quiet(or so Casey could sneak out?).

BBM
This has been my theory also! I feel that GA did remember that he saw Caylee being carried out the last time he saw her, and Cindy concocted a "No George, THIS is what you remember" story for the interview aired on TV while she was squeezing his leg as he spoke. I have always felt that the "method" of murder happened at home in the wee hours of the 16th, and indeed George was the last one to see Caylee. Just not how he stated to the world. (Thanks, Cindy)

 

[3doglady]

Yes ... it was an artifact in that one of the images was cropped at the "line" that appears in the combined image. Remember, what I did was take several images and align them as layers within Photoshop. Some images covered more of the trunk than others.

Was this image taken from the underneath side of the trunk liner? If so, are we looking at her right arm with the dark bands across them?

 

[CarrieSis]

I see your theory, but I don't think you'd duct tape someone's face without turning them over onto their back if they were unconscious. Think of how sticky duct tape is and trying to slide it or manuever it onto someone who is limp weight and lying face down? And then she'd be on her back, which wouldn't match the imprint. I can't see KC turning her back over into the *perfect* toddler sleeping position after taping her face and *while she was dying*.

I am still trying to find answers to a couple of things before advancing my own theory, but you might yet convince me Just not sure of the above for the reasons stated.

I do agree that it is possible death occured in the bedroom at the Anthony home for all of the reasons you have stated. Given how messy death is, even within a short period of time (hours) I'm not sure how there wouldn't be any evidence within the house if she had indeed passed there, though. Stranger things have happened, I'm sure.

 

[Chiquita71]

http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/22578565/detail.html

Here are some trunk liner photographs. Just to have them up in the thread for people like me who are bringing up the rear. :butthead: :giggle:

ETA: The car seat evidence photos are also at the link above. They are highlighted to show "staining." My theory includes the idea that an unconscious, overdosed Caylee was strapped into her car seat, possibly having drooled and/or vomited due to the medication administered. Casey then applied the duct tape and put Caylee in the trunk.

:twocents:

 

[CarrieSis]

oh gosh Chiquita - what area are the photos 21,22,23 from?! That looks like a cheek/mouth profile O.O

 

[Chiquita71]

oh gosh Chiquita - what area are the photos 21,22,23 from?! That looks like a cheek/mouth profile O.O

CarrieSis :wave:

These are pictures that were released with the doc dumps. Filter enhanced evidence images. As far as seeing anything in them, when they came out I was already almost a year behind the other sleuthers and I only have enough memory to remember where to look for them. So, long way of saying: anything you are seeing or wondering...your opinion/guess is as good as mine. :dunno:

I have been hopping threads, did I say it here that I think there is a whole thread dedicated to the "face"/stain on the car seat? I will go look and find that.

ETA: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89610&highlight=stain
Stain in Trunk May Show Outline of...(closed thread, could not :bump: )

:websleuther:

 

[LCoastMom]

Respectfully Quoted CarrieSis
BBM

What you have written and I have put in bold I am using because you sparked what I am thinking. :tyou:

If Casey drugged Caylee first with cold medicine or chloroform, (and I keep thinking Casey had Caylee in the car seat at one point)she would have been "sleeping" when Casey put the duct tape on her face. IIRC, someone(JoyPath?)said that a person who has been drugged wouldn't(might not)react to the loss of air if they were unconscious. So, here we have a drugged Caylee with Casey applying the three layers of duct tape over her airways to make sure that if Caylee were to awake from the (Casey made sure to give what she thought was a) lethal dose, but put the duct tape on to be sure.

Along with this idea my mind goes to Caylee being wrapped in the Winnie the Pooh blanket as Casey carries a "sleeping" drugged Caylee out to the car to put her in the car seat. I think Cindy was gone at work and George was busy being George. I think Casey withheld Caylee from George in the morning, he did not eat breakfast with her and since he said at one point he had put Caylee in her car seat and waved goodbye, I figure that is a lie. Casey might have marched by George or waited till he was in the backyard/going to the restroom, etc. there are many ways Casey could have carried a drugged Caylee out to her car and put her in the car seat. (in my theory based on all the work of other WS).

Casey grabbed a knife from home to take with her to cut the duct tape, and grabs garbage bags that are in the garage. She drove the car to where she could get in the back seat and put the tape on unconscious Caylee(who looks like a sleeping child in a car seat). When the tape is applied, Casey gets Caylee out of the car seat and into the trunk. Then Casey drives to Tony's where she parks the car and goes to Blockbuster Video with Tony in his Jeep.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6285978&posted=1#post6285978

ETA: I think George and Cindy may have figured this out, and that is why the conflicting stories for the morning of June 16. Why Cindy made the statement that she listened through the door and could hear both of them "breathing." This statement lends credence to the idea that Casey had Caylee in her room on the night of the 15th because there was a fight. In most statements it seems like Caylee would sleep with Cindy in her room, but if Casey and Cindy had a fight over Caylee on the night of the 15th-Casey may have ran into her room with her. This is when Casey could have, in anger now, given Caylee way too much of a dose of something so that she would be quiet/to kill her.

Chiquita - I enjoy reading your well thought-out posts! Just a couple little things.

Cindy would rock Caylee most nights but I believe it has always been said Caylee slept in KC's bed with KC - I think this is the reason at times CA called KC to come home - Caylee would wake up alone and CA needing to go to her actual job in the morning was too tired to deal.

If KC carried a drugged Caylee out of the house under GA's nose - she has more cojones then most - sleeping or awake - as Gma I reserve the right to kiss my GBaby good-bye or at least peak at her! Risky behavior - but this is ICA!

As far as the car goes - she is lazy, lazy, lazy and putting a dead weight, drugged baby into that car-seat would have been a lot of work! Why not just toss her into the trunk?

If ICA sat in that car in broad daylight and wrapped all that tape around her little face (and arms) - again BIG BRASS ONES! - she may be too insane to receive the needle! Anyone could have seen her!

I can't explain away the knife - unless it was the first thing she grabbed or she didn't want duct tape residue on HER craft scissors - but applying the tape for the world to see - when she has the safety of her room, in an empty house seems out there. Even for ICA.

I haven't been able to find a thread specific to the car-seat. I thought I remembered reading it didn't have decomp (not 100% on this) I remember there being a stain/mark on a shoulder strap - does anyone know if this tested positive for anything?

I think Caylee went into that trunk deceased - she landed as she landed. (sorry NOT ICA's trouble anymore! Poor sweet baby has done her best in all this - something I think she had learned long ago with KC for a mother.

 

[RR0004]

Ok...I'm playing catch up...the motion concerning the stain hasn't been brought up yet, correct? I got the chance to watch Vass and got the distinct impression that he was staying clear of talking about the stain...though I do think mention of it slipped out. When will this motion be heard, Wed.?
TIA