2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[Calliope]

Yes, he did. I was hoping someone would remember that, as I clearly do.

I think it's just what happens...one side says "this is our motion. If you want to fight it, you risk having to pay our fees. Think carefully." Ultimately, the judge would order who pays for what, once things get to his courtroom, I'm thinking, so it's more SOP and regular than not.

As for TH getting visitation...I think it's a good idea. It benefits Baby K, and that is what matters in this particular situation.

And I can't help but think that there is a lot of hypocracy in this situation; people were screaming bloody murder that TH didn't even try to see Baby, and now that she is, they're screaming bloody blue murder that she's trying. She has been tarred, feathered, and hung to dry without a court decision as to her guilt, without even being arrested, and there is nothing she can do which will change the minds of some folks. I am referring to no one in particular; just pointing out what I've seen happen several times...and it's definitely something that Bunch and Houze are paying close attention to - because that will support their claim that there is no fair trial to be had for their client, if she's arrested.

Because of that, I think she's just moving ahead with her life, and trying to pick up the pieces as best she can. Seeing her daughter is one way to do that...and I can't fault her in the least.

MOO, IMHO, JMO, and all that.

Best-
HC

Post of the day. Thank you.

 

[mmmagique]

If I was an attorney, and had a client who second-guessed and overrode my expert advice and standards of protocol and procedure, I'd politely tell them to find themselves another attorney. Or go represent themselves. Either way.

Not asking for money from Kaine is hardly second-guessing your attorney. It's stating what you would like to have done by the person who is being paid to do so.

Now, if she went around blabbing the way she did before she retained Houze, that would be another matter entirely.

But any attorney who cannot take some direction from their employer is an attorney who will not have many clients.

 

[Trident]

Not asking for money from Kaine is hardly second-guessing your attorney. It's stating what you would like to have done by the person who is being paid to do so.

Now, if she went around blabbing the way she did before she retained Houze, that would be another matter entirely.

But any attorney who cannot take some direction from their employer is an attorney who will not have many clients.

I kinda have to differ here. Any attorney worth his/her salt gives direction to the client. Any client who will not take direction from their attorney probably needs to find another one.

The point is, yes you are "employing" the attorney, but you are paying for THEIR expertise. If you had their knowlede and expertise, you could represent yourself. It's a rare, and in my opinion, foolish client, who does not take the advise of the man/woman he or she is paying to represent them in the complicate morass we call the legal system.

Just my opinion.

 

[citigirl]

Kaine has a strong piece of evidence to bring to the table--the letter from the DA which says TH is the subject of a criminal investigation. This letter is referred to in the contempt motion filed by Rackner. It was included in the original RO motion.

Peter Bunch has stated in court that TH is a "de facto" suspect in the disappearance of a small child. LE has stated to MSM that this disappearance is a criminal act.

So...if both sides bring no additional evidence....the judge must decide if a suspect in the criminal disappearance of a small child raised by her should be allowed visitation of another, smaller child raised by her. Without having to answer any questions from the judge or submit to a psych evaluation.

If Kaine can bring in any other evidence from LE that suggests this disappearance is a kidnapping or murder (of a child!), I think the judge should be excoriated if he allows visitation, supervised or otherwise. I would not want to live in a state that has so little regard for the life of a child.

 

[Trident]

I'm referring specifically to the actions of Bunch's repeated attempts with Rackner for an agreement for supervised visitation.

I still hold that if he was doing something illegal or against the rules of procedure or "circumventing" the system in any way, she'd have jumped on it and filed on both him and Terri for doing so. There wouldn't have been "repeated" attempts, only one. Because she wouldn't have allowed it to go past that point. Since she's a well respected and competent civil attorney, as pointed out early in the thread.

There's nothing at all illegal about two attornies, for the opposing parties, trying to work the problem out between themselves. Where do people get these ideas?

 

[BeanE]

Kaine has a strong piece of evidence to bring to the table--the letter from the DA which says TH is the subject of a criminal investigation. This letter is referred to in the contempt motion filed by Rackner. It was included in the original RO motion.

BBM

I just went through the RO documents, and can not find this letter, nor any reference to it.

Can you point me to the PDF page numbers please?

TIA

Here are the RO documents, in two PDF files:

RO documents: http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib/107/e/1/2/e12f2287-ce0b-48e0-8d85-e3955216ae1b/FULLORDER.pdf

RO contempt documents: http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib/107/b/2/c/b2c0c26c-4221-4fde-a923-fa5788b1ad69/Horman.pdf

 

[mmmagique]

I kinda have to differ here. Any attorney worth his/her salt gives direction to the client. Any client who will not take direction from their attorney probably needs to find another one.

The point is, yes you are "employing" the attorney, but you are paying for THEIR expertise. If you had their knowlede and expertise, you could represent yourself. It's a rare, and in my opinion, foolish client, who does not take the advise of the man/woman he or she is paying to represent them in the complicate morass we call the legal system.

Just my opinion.

With most things yes, this is very true.
However, most attorneys aren't going to care one way or another if their client does or does not want to request money from the other party. (unless, of course, they are working on contingency!!) ; )

 

[LandAuxvasse]

It's SOP for attorneys from both sides to work together to come to agreements prior to court. Otherwise, they stand to incur the wrath of the judge for wasting his time and the taxpayers money.

I don't see any circumvention here. Just SOP.

My opinion based on what I've seen in other cases, such as Caylee's, where we've seen the judge's admonishments along these lines.

The thanks button wasn't enough... I know I'm still a few pages behind, but I was yelling at my screen, so thank you, BeanE, for stating this opinion, which just happens to be MOO as well... :dance:

 

[Trident]

With most things yes, this is very true.
However, most attorneys aren't going to care one way or another if their client does or does not want to request money from the other party. (unless, of course, they are working on contingency!!) ; )

There is no "contingency" in this case. Houze is going to get his money, whatever the true sum is, whether or not TH goes to jail.

 

[citigirl]

BBM

I just went through the RO documents, and can not find this letter, nor any reference to it.

Can you point me to the PDF page numbers please?

TIA

Here are the RO documents, in two PDF files:

RO documents: http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib/107/e/1/2/e12f2287-ce0b-48e0-8d85-e3955216ae1b/FULLORDER.pdf

RO contempt documents: http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib/107/b/2/c/b2c0c26c-4221-4fde-a923-fa5788b1ad69/Horman.pdf

Thank you for providing the link. Read the letter from the DA. He references an affidavit from July 2 that says that releasing information from the LE ongoing criminal investigation would undermine that investigation. The only criminal investigation at that time connected with Terri Horman is Kyron's disappearance.

It is her lawyer who tells us she is a de facto suspect in that investigation.

 

[mmmagique]

There is no "contingency" in this case. Houze is going to get his money, whatever the true sum is, whether or not TH goes to jail.

Of course not. That was a bit of light hearted humour not directed at Houze or anyone else.

ETA: but the fact still remains that it's not going to effect the attorney one way or another whether she requests that money or not.

 

[human]

What the heck does Diane Downs have to do with this topic?

Parenting time IS established in the RO. The parenting time is none. As far as "how Terri can modify parenting time", I posted the Oregon law that allows her to do so. That's how.

re Diane Downs. The reasons I am curious is because people are saying that a baby needs the mother.

I am wondering if babies need all mothers-say Diane Donws, for example, or are there some mothers people would say should be excluded from interacting with the baby?

I do not think children should be exposed to those that can damage them.

After all, we take dogs and cats away from abuser.

 

[Trident]

Kaine has a strong piece of evidence to bring to the table--the letter from the DA which says TH is the subject of a criminal investigation. This letter is referred to in the contempt motion filed by Rackner. It was included in the original RO motion.

Peter Bunch has stated in court that TH is a "de facto" suspect in the disappearance of a small child. LE has stated to MSM that this disappearance is a criminal act.

So...if both sides bring no additional evidence....the judge must decide if a suspect in the criminal disappearance of a small child raised by her should be allowed visitation of another, smaller child raised by her. Without having to answer any questions from the judge or submit to a psych evaluation.

If Kaine can bring in any other evidence from LE that suggests this disappearance is a kidnapping or murder (of a child!), I think the judge should be excoriated if he allows visitation, supervised or otherwise. I would not want to live in a state that has so little regard for the life of a child.

BBSOMEBODY - TH has never been named a suspect, that is a moot point which the judge should not take into consideration, nor the MFH "plot/blown out of the water sting". Aside from that, if LE doesn't lay their cards on the table to the judge, which I doubt they can/will/have, what other evidence is there that TH is or will be harmful to baby K? I'm just not seeing anything but a manipulation here, tunnel vision if you will by LE. One needs to remember, Ward Weaver was able to talk his way around Ashley Pond'ws allegations of his abuse to LE, as well as getting her stepfather's? charges thrown out - then they found her buried in HIS back yard. I'm not sure it pays to walk the politically-correct path in Oregon. Seems to me there's someone in the Portland area directing traffic and I can't quite figure out why. Well, maybe I can, but I won't be posting here very long if I say it.

Back in the day when there were investigative journalists...never mind, it's been said here that nothing gets printed in the papers without the OKAY of the powers that be. So glad I do not live in Oregon, beautiful state that it is.

My opinion only

 

[citigirl]

BBSOMEBODY - TH has never been named a suspect, that is a moot point which the judge should not take into consideration, nor the MFH "plot/blown out of the water sting". Aside from that, if LE doesn't lay their cards on the table to the judge, which I doubt they can/will/have, what other evidence is there that TH is or will be harmful to baby K? I'm just not seeing anything but a manipulation here, tunnel vision if you will be LE. One needs to remember, Ward Weaver was able to talk his way around Ashley Pond'ws allegations of his abuse to LE, as well as getting her stepfather's? charges thrown out - then they found her buried in HIS back yard. I'm not sure it pays to walk the politically-correct path in Oregon. Seems to me there's someone in the Portland area directing traffic and I can't quite figure out why. Well, maybe I can, but I won't be posting here very long if I say it.

Back in the day when there were investigative journalists...never mind, it's been said here that nothing gets printed in the papers without the OKAY of the powers that be. So glad I do not live in Oregon, beautiful state that it is.

My opinion only

I agree with you, Trident. But if the judge does not accept Peter Bunch's argument that TH is a suspect in Kyron's disappearance, then Terri will be forced to testify and submit to a psych eval like every other mother who is seeking visitation against the father's wishes in family court.

I hope this is exactly what happens. It is LE's best shot at getting information they can use at a trial. I think they will arrest her in a heartbeat if she testifies in family court.

 

[germaine]

The law provides that the Court arrange for supervised visitation if ordered.

This can be done by simply having them meet in an interrogation room, for example. Deputy stands at the door while Terri meets with baby. They can even videotape the entire thing.

She's not going to be taking off to anywhere under supervised visitation. That's the whole point of it being supervised.

Stranger things have happened, and very recently. Terri has a lot on the line and her passport as far as we know. jmoo


http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=5488056&page=1

http://www.totaldivorce.com/news/articles/finance/child-custody-kidnappings.aspx

High Profile Custody Kidnapping

Custody kidnappings have been recently discussed in the news relating to the story of a 7-year-old British girl, Reigh "Snooks" Storrow Mills Boss, who was kidnapped in Boston by her wealthy father, Clark Rockefeller. Rockefeller allegedly kidnapped his daughter during his first supervised visitation after losing joint custody.
An Amber Alert was immediately issued, while police and the FBI conducted a manhunt for Rockefeller. Initially it was believed that Rockefeller kidnapped his daughter on the spur of the moment, out of frustration of losing joint custody. It was later discovered that the kidnapping was part of an elaborate plan that had been concocted over a period of several months.

____

http://epubs.utah.edu/index.php/jlfs/article/viewPDFInterstitial/286/242

The Committee met approximately four times a month to discuss standards and certification, and ultimately produced a formal Report to the Florida Legislature: Recommendations of the Supervised Visitation Standards Committee ("the Report"). As the group undertook this challenge, several cases arose that raised the Committee’s awareness of the unpredictability and dangers of supervised visitation dynamics. These cases also influenced the way that Committee members viewed and shaped the standards for supervised visitation. One such case involved a man using the alias Clark Rockefeller. Over a period of several weeks during the summer of 2008, the national news media frequently reported that "Rockefeller" had kidnapped his seven-year-old daughter during supervised visitation. Although the child was later found unharmed, police determined that Christian Gerhartsreiter--the man’s real name--was a "person of interest" in a double murder. This case raised serious issues concerning safety, as the Committee learned that this was not the first child kidnapped from a supervised visit by a parent.

See, e.g., Sheriff’s Office Searching for 3-year-old Boy Abducted from China Grove Home, SALISBURY POST, August 15, 2008, available at http://www.salisburypost.com/Area/081508-cops-abducted-boy-Bender (child’s mother abducted him during a supervised visit) (last viewed November 18, 2008); Mark Spenser, Abducted Baby Returned to Waterford police,HARTFORD COURANT, Oct. 31, 2008, available at http://www.courant.com/news/local/hcu-waterfordbaby-1031,0,3020543.story (last viewed November 19, 2008) (month-old baby taken by his mother during supervised visitation by child protective services); Carol Miller & Karl Ross, Mother Sneaks Baby Son Out of DCF Office Building, MIAMI HER., April 28, 2004, at 1A (describing how a judge became angry at social worker for not watching an unfit mother closely enough during supervised visit).

____

For some reason, cutting and pasting the link for this last one deletes the rest of the post, but if you google the father's unusual last name, you'll get plenty of msm hits:

Luke was reported missing during a supervised visit with his father. He apparently slipped away from the court-appointed supervisor while they were hanging out in a Cocoa park. The supervision was ordered because of earlier allegations that Martikainen was abusing the child. An Amber alert brought in tips that helped police track Martikainen’s vehicle to the marina. Authorities believe the abduction was planned, noting that Martikainen had painted the boat gray, both to cover identifying marks and to make it hard to spot in the ocean.

 

[BeanE]

Thank you for providing the link. Read the letter from the DA. He references an affidavit from July 2 that says that releasing information from the LE ongoing criminal investigation would undermine that investigation. The only criminal investigation at that time connected with Terri Horman is Kyron's disappearance.

It is her lawyer who tells us she is a de facto suspect in that investigation.

Thank you. I read that letter, and it says this:

I called you and informed you that, given the media coverageover the past long weekend, the Multnomah County major Crimes Team could no longer stand by its assertion in my affidavit of July 2 that unsealing the sealed matters before you would undermine our on-going criminal investigation. I express no opinion on any position Terri Horman might have in the matter.



What I'm looking for though, is this:

Kaine has a strong piece of evidence to bring to the table--the letter from the DA which says TH is the subject of a criminal investigation. This letter is referred to in the contempt motion filed by Rackner. It was included in the original RO motion.

If you are implying that the two are the same, then please disregard my request.

Thanks again.

 

[Trident]

I agree with you, Trident. But if the judge does not accept Peter Bunch's argument that TH is a suspect in Kyron's disappearance, then Terri will be forced to testify and submit to a psych eval like every other mother who is seeking visitation against the father's wishes in family court.

I hope this is exactly what happens. It is LE's best shot at getting information they can use at a trial. I think they will arrest her in a heartbeat if she testifies in family court.

Maybe TH should take a psych eval, named/de facto suspect or not. Maybe then we ALL could rest easier. Believe me, I don't know if she is guilty or not, I have other suspects in mind, but if we can eliminate them one by one, on an honest basis and find this child, I say, GO FOR IT.

 

[believe09]

This isn't an attempt to have the RO dropped against her. Outside of any court-ordered supervised visitation, she is still under the same restrictions regarding contact and proximity to the baby.

"Circumvent" in this context implies to get around the law in some fashion. What she's doing is entirely legal. That's not "circumventing" anything.

Now I think "circumvent, in this case, is to get around the normal questions and disclosure required to allow a judge to make a determination of visitation.

In her case she wants some kind of contact without presenting evidence that she is safe to contact the child. Kind of a "just because I said so."

Kaine doesnt have to present evidence supporting the RO any more because the 30 days have passed since he requested it and she had a chance to contest it.

So it appears Bunch has asked for some kind of contact repeatedly and was either told no or there were conditions set that he would not acquiece to. Now they want to take it to a judge. Fair enough, but I dont think she has a prayer.

That is jmvho, because what will the judge be using to determine the advisability of this visitation with a child of such tender years? Let's face it, it may hurt Terri very much not to see her child. But Baby K?

 

[mmmagique]

I agree with you, Trident. But if the judge does not accept Peter Bunch's argument that TH is a suspect in Kyron's disappearance, then Terri will be forced to testify and submit to a psych eval like every other mother who is seeking visitation against the father's wishes in family court.

I hope this is exactly what happens. It is LE's best shot at getting information they can use at a trial. I think they will arrest her in a heartbeat if she testifies in family court.

Exactly. It sounds like she wants it both ways; to get special treatment due to her "de facto suspect" status, AND to be treated as just another mother seeking visitation.

 

[stmarysmead]

Who is saying Terri doesn't agree with the motion Bunch served to the Court???

I was replying to a post that said this was written by her attorney and standard legalese...and therefore did not reflect Terri's arrogance or sense of entitlement. My point is that the client has the ultimate control over anything done in his/her name by an attorney.