2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

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But, it's testimony in a separate civil action. I think you'd have to prove that LE is behind Kaine's legal maneuvering in the civil case, which would be difficult. I agree with you in concept, I'm just not sure if procedurally, it would be counted as coercion, given that it's a separate action.

I guess the reason the Assistant DA was sitting in that courtroom has been solved, then. Seems to me, in case there was an ability to get Terri on the stand that day, he was there to take notes. No pressure, of course.

ETA: Unless he was there for a different testimony. This case is quite confusing.
 
But, it's testimony in a separate civil action. I think you'd have to prove that LE is behind Kaine's legal maneuvering in the civil case, which would be difficult. I agree with you in concept, I'm just not sure if procedurally, it would be counted as coercion, given that it's a separate action.

I think you are right. And I'll also add that it's not "th being kept from her baby" in the civil context, it's "baby being kept from th." It is baby's best interests that are at issue. Which, imo, makes it even less likely, and maybe impossible, to argue coercion in the legal sense. jmoo
 
You're right. Kaine doesn't have to give Terri anything. By the same token, Terri doesn't have to answer anything Kaine wants her to answer. She doesn't have to be forced into losing her Fifth Amendment Rights to give the same answers she's already freely given him and LE. But somehow people believe it is fair for him to make accusations. Her non-response to these accusations is then deemed proof of her criminality rather than what it truly is: Her exercising her rights to not have to testify against herself EVEN IF WHAT SHE SAYS IS THAT SHE HAS NO OTHER INFORMATION THAN WHAT SHE HAS ALREADY GIVEN. The assumption on Kaine's part that she's lying is just that: an assumption. And this is a civil hearing, and he's searching for information for the DA to incriminate Terri with. She can't speak without it being used against her, and I don't know why people keep insisting that if she's innocent she has nothing to worry about. She's said nothing yet publicly and she's already been charged, tried, convicted, and in one thread, hanged for her crimes. That is not how the justice system works. She is being forced to keep her mouth shut or give evidence against herself. It's just that simple.

But Kaine has an unfair advantage. He has now asserted in a civil court that LE has given him information pertaining to a criminal case about his wife that leads him to believe she's committed a crime against himself and his son. LE will not give that information to Terri because it is an active investigation. So through Kaine, we learn Terri is the "de facto" suspect, even though her lawyers put a name to what it is Terri is being subjected to by LE.

The fact of the matter is, if LE isn't going to bring the ball to the game, then Kaine should not be allowed to use that ball to throw at Terri.

But hey. It's just my opinion, and I'm glad she doesn't play their game. Her daughter needs her out of jail. Kaine's lack of cooperation for parenting time for his daughter with her mother will eventually lead to K having a guardian ad litem assigned because Kaine is not looking out for her best interests. Terri hasn't been charged, and no evidence has been shown which would prove she's a bad mother. Just accusations from a disgruntled husband with an axe to grind. IMO.

First, the statement "I'm glad that Terri does not play their games" is a total slap in the face to our justice system(the same system that is repeatedly stated is "protecting" Terri and her rights). The justice system doesn't play games with the ppl of this country or their rights. The justice system does not base it's decisions, nor rulings on "disgruntled husbands w/an ax to grind"... The truth of this matter is dealing with some extremely important issues involving one child that has already "disappeared" most likely at the hands of this woman(this stated in court doc that this info LE shared with Kaine and Rackner)and the courts are legally keeping the other living child, baby k safe from being influenced or abused by this woman.

Regarding the use of guardian ad litems... Just as someone upthread has already posted it is NOT Kaines actions that will bring about a guardian ad litem for baby K, but rather is standard procedure for guardian ad litems to become involved in divorce/custody proceedings to ensure the child's best interest is being met.

The only persons actions that are bringing about every single ounce of all of this heartache, stress, and what will be long and drawn out is Terri Horman's actions, behaviors, etc. (and unless someone needs to be reminded of the entire list of what all actions, behaviours, etc) I think we all know too well the long litany of inappropriate, uncooperative, and needless to say strong, strong signs of some very severe mental and emotional issues that we are talking about.

But to suggest that Any type of "games" are being played is disrespectful and a slap in the face to our justice system and to those whose lives have been dedicated to the workings of that justice system.

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But hey. It's just my opinion, and I'm glad she doesn't play their game. Her daughter needs her out of jail. Kaine's lack of cooperation for parenting time for his daughter with her mother will eventually lead to K having a guardian ad litem assigned because Kaine is not looking out for her best interests. Terri hasn't been charged, and no evidence has been shown which would prove she's a bad mother. Just accusations from a disgruntled husband with an axe to grind. IMO.

First, the statement "I'm glad that Terri does not play their games" is a total slap in the face to our justice system(the same system that is repeatedly stated is "protecting" Terri and her rights). The justice system doesn't play games with the ppl of this country or their rights. The justice system does not base it's decisions, nor rulings on "disgruntled husbands w/an ax to grind"... The truth of this matter is dealing with some extremely important issues involving one child that has already "disappeared" most likely at the hands of this woman(this stated in court doc that this info LE shared with Kaine and Rackner)and the courts are legally keeping the other living child, baby k safe from being influenced or abused by this woman.

Regarding the use of guardian ad litems... Just as someone upthread has already posted it is NOT Kaines actions that will bring about a guardian ad litem for baby K, but rather is standard procedure for guardian ad litems to become involved in divorce/custody proceedings to ensure the child's best interest is being met.

The only persons actions that are bringing about every single ounce of all of this heartache, stress, and what will be long and drawn out is Terri Horman's actions, behaviors, etc. (and unless someone needs to be reminded of the entire list of what all actions, behaviours, etc) I think we all know too well the long litany of inappropriate, uncooperative, and needless to say strong, strong signs of some very severe mental and emotional issues that we are talking about.

But to suggest that Any type of "games" are being played is disrespectful and a slap in the face to our justice system and to those whose lives have been dedicated to the workings of that justice system.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Where are Kyron's rights? Terri had the knowledge, the ability to reason, the strength, the education, and the means to walk away from a relationship she was unhappy in. Terri chose to make the decisions she has, rather than rationalize before she took the steps she took.

Terri and Terri alone has herself to blame for the situation she is in. She not once, but two times gave up her chance to regain visitation and /or custody of her daughter.

IMO she is asserting her right not to talk, because she doesn't want pay for a crime she may have played a role in. So that becomes Kaine's fault? That her keeping herself out of jail has superceded what she and her lawyers claim to be her desire to be with her child?

In the Zahra case the SM and the Dad have both given police the information needed to find her body. She is dead it is too little once again for the child victim. But at least they had a tiny amount of decency to let her be found. They will spend the rest of their lives in jail if convicted. So what? That is where they belong if they killed a defenseless child, or played a role in abuse that caused her death.

I don't know in what frozen depths of consciousness the likes of Casey Anthony and Terri Horman live? Their rights are protected, while the children lie or did lie out in the woods decomposing like the garbage, or are in the hands of very deviant people. I'm all for rights but lets not forget Kyron's rights were snatched from him. He didn't get to say I demand my rights.

Don't blame Kaine Horman for trying to protect K from a person like Terri Horman. He is a victim, not by choice you see, Terri took his rights away on the fateful day in June also. I Scream for Kaine's rights!

Yes she has a right to remain silent to protect her from self incrimination. But then I don't feel sorry either, that she can't see her daughter who could potentially be at great risk with a woman who refuses to help bring Kyron home.

Where are Kyron's rights to a full life, a life of love, not betrayal. A life with laughter and play? All those rights have been taken from him. He is a child and couldn't know what was happening to him on that morning. I Scream for Kyron's rights! He isn't able to scream for his own rights and it appears that the woman who we have heard all of these curious sugar coated tales about, how she was in his life forever, and she was a good mom, and she was great with kids,,,, thought more about her happiness, greed and devious control of Kaine than she ever cared for Kyron. She continues to think more about herself than a little guy who was caught in the middle. Terri is the one and only one who can tell what happened to Kyron. And she won't. If she didn't do something to Kyron herself, then tell who was in her life that might have used her to get to him.

Where are Kaine's rights to have his son in his life? Does he not now have rights to protect his last remaining child? I would say yes, he most certainly has more rights than the woman who won't restore Kyron's rights, his most basic of all rights not to be lying out in the woods somewhere all alone and decaying, or in the hands of a sexual deviant or hidden away and afraid.

The fact that we even have to talk about Terri's rights rather than she acting like Marc Klass, Elizabeth Smart's parents, and many many other parents who were innocent and made that known in a hundred different ways, makes her only look more involved. So just what if she is innocent, and LE is wrong? I don't personally believe LE is wrong but lets just say they may be. So Terri may have to jump through a million hoops to prove it? So what? Say what you have to say and do what you have to do. But tell what you know and help find Kyron!

My opinion is it isn't that Terri has the right to protect herself from self incrimination, it is that she MUST protect herself from self incrimination. So sorry, I have no need to worry about Terri's rights she has her high priced attorney. But then don't ask me to feel sorry that rightfully Kaine is trying to protect his other child from the likes of Terri Horman.

Where are the rights of these babies I ask? Why do they have no rights?

It is pretty much a mute issue. I blame Terri. She didn't have to put herself in this position. Terri chose 2x. Both times she chose Terri and not BabyK .
 
Where are Kyron's rights? Terri had the knowledge, the ability to reason, the strength, the education, and the means to walk away from a relationship she was unhappy in. Terri chose to make the decisions she has, rather than rationalize before she took the steps she took.

Terri and Terri alone has herself to blame for the situation she is in. She not once, but two times gave up her chance to regain visitation and /or custody of her daughter.

IMO she is asserting her right not to talk, because she doesn't want pay for a crime she may have played a role in. So that becomes Kaine's fault? That her keeping herself out of jail has superceded what she and her lawyers claim to be her desire to be with her child?

In the Zahra case the SM and the Dad have both given police the information needed to find her body. She is dead it is too little once again for the child victim. But at least they had a tiny amount of decency to let her be found. They will spend the rest of their lives in jail if convicted. So what? That is where they belong if they killed a defenseless child, or played a role in abuse that caused her death.

I don't know in what frozen depths of consciousness the likes of Casey Anthony and Terri Horman live? Their rights are protected, while the children lie or did lie out in the woods decomposing like the garbage, or are in the hands of very deviant people. I'm all for rights but lets not forget Kyron's rights were snatched from him. He didn't get to say I demand my rights.

Don't blame Kaine Horman for trying to protect K from a person like Terri Horman. He is a victim, not by choice you see, Terri took his rights away on the fateful day in June also. I Scream for Kaine's rights!

Yes she has a right to remain silent to protect her from self incrimination. But then I don't feel sorry either, that she can't see her daughter who could potentially be at great risk with a woman who refuses to help bring Kyron home.

Where are Kyron's rights to a full life, a life of love, not betrayal. A life with laughter and play? All those rights have been taken from him. He is a child and couldn't know what was happening to him on that morning. I Scream for Kyron's rights! He isn't able to scream for his own rights and it appears that the woman who we have heard all of these curious sugar coated tales about, how she was in his life forever, and she was a good mom, and she was great with kids,,,, thought more about her happiness, greed and devious control of Kaine than she ever cared for Kyron. She continues to think more about herself than a little guy who was caught in the middle. Terri is the one and only one who can tell what happened to Kyron. And she won't. If she didn't do something to Kyron herself, then tell who was in her life that might have used her to get to him.

Where are Kaine's rights to have his son in his life? Does he not now have rights to protect his last remaining child? I would say yes, he most certainly has more rights than the woman who won't restore Kyron's rights, his most basic of all rights not to be lying out in the woods somewhere all alone and decaying, or in the hands of a sexual deviant or hidden away and afraid.

The fact that we even have to talk about Terri's rights rather than she acting like Marc Klass, Elizabeth Smart's parents, and many many other parents who were innocent and made that known in a hundred different ways, makes her only look more involved. So just what if she is innocent, and LE is wrong? I don't personally believe LE is wrong but lets just say they may be. So Terri may have to jump through a million hoops to prove it? So what? Say what you have to say and do what you have to do. But tell what you know and help find Kyron!

My opinion is it isn't that Terri has the right to protect herself from self incrimination, it is that she MUST protect herself from self incrimination. So sorry, I have no need to worry about Terri's rights she has her high priced attorney. But then don't ask me to feel sorry that rightfully Kaine is trying to protect his other child from the likes of Terri Horman.

Where are the rights of these babies I ask? Why do they have no rights?

It is pretty much a mute issue. I blame Terri. She didn't have to put herself in this position. Terri chose 2x. Both times she chose Terri and not BabyK .

If we could give you a standing ovation grandmaj, we definitely would. Your post is absolutely incredible and mirrors my thoughts exactly!!
 
snip

PORTLAND, Ore. -- The legal war of attrition in the divorce of missing Portland boy Kyron Horman's father and stepmother continued as more documents were filed in court Friday.
Attorney's for Kaine Horman filed a response to his estranged wife Terri Moulton Horman's withdrawal of a request to seek visitation with the couple's young child last week. In it, they argue that Terri's attachment of a "declaration" was only an attempt to "blame Father and his lawyer for Mother's situation," and that there was no legal need for such statements. Read: Kaine's latest filing

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Kaine-Horman-Terris-silence--107562544-kyron-missing-portland.html

pdf link here w/docs filed today

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/kaine+horman+court+1112.pdf
 
But Terri hasn't been charged with a crime and it is not a crime to not be forced to testify against oneself.

LE hasn't determined that Kyron's rights were violated or terminated by Terri. If they have, why haven't they come forward with it? Why are they waiting for her to say something more to them than what she already has. It cannot escape everyone's notice that if she's guilty, the only thing she'll say is what she's already given them.

This motion to withdraw, based in the very real grounds that unless she does withdraw, she will be forced to testify against herself, is the only option anyone has at this point. It should be something Kaine runs with to tell LE to get their damn proof and bring her in finally. But they aren't. Why not? Because they need this legal loophole of Terri on the stand to make the arrest. Terri HAS to say something, anything, and then they will arrest her. She's not giving them anything to bite on.

She's protected by law from LE doing that to her, taking her child from her and seeing her husband leave her. But Kaine has only stated LE gave him reason to believe. He doesn't say "I saw proof of it."

I have reason to believe my neighbor is as nutty as her locked up son, but I don't have proof of that. LE has told me I have reason to believe it, but they can't tell me more than "Yeah, well, that apple didn't grow on the tree just to fall off and become an orange. Everyone on that tree is alike."

If LE has it, they should bring it. If they don't, they should clear her. It's becoming apparent that they're looking for something that Terri says that will ADD her to their suspicions. As yet, they don't seem to have evidence that shows that. It's wrong, and I will defend Terri's Constitutional Rights until I'm blue in the face (long past).

I don't do it because I think she's innocent or guilty. I do it because it could someday be me. Or you. And I would be as loud and obnoxious about it then, too.

As for Kyron's rights. Someone took them from him. Took him from his family. Destroyed a bunch of lives by taking him. I can't do much more for Kyron's rights than I am right now: Posting on a public website to show my horror that people like that exist. But I am unwilling to announce I know who did it when I do not know who did it. I will fight, however, to do what I can to change things so that children stop being taken.
 
Thanks Free, haven't read the docs yet; but once again it's on a Friday.
 
He has an objection to the motion to withdraw. So she wants this motion for revision of the FAPA to carry forward in the court.
 
I LOVE IT! From the cheap seats out here, I think Rackner is doing a fantastic job. But I'm not a lawyer and won't pretend to understand all the complications of this case!
 
As long as she realizes that reasonable discovery will be required by the court from Kaine's attorney. I hope he's ready for that.
 
Wait. He's asking the court to consider her silence as guilt. But I thought the court was not permitted to consider silence as guilt.

I need a lawyer.

:)
 
If LE has it, they should bring it. If they don't, they should clear her. It's becoming apparent that they're looking for something that Terri says that will ADD her to their suspicions. As yet, they don't seem to have evidence that shows that. It's wrong, and I will defend Terri's Constitutional Rights until I'm blue in the face (long past).

LE doesn't need to "bring" anything, nor do they need to clear her. LE doesn't operate according to John Q Public's timetable.

And as for defending anyone's constitutional rights, I stand for Kyron and his 14th Amendment rights-- to life and liberty.
 
I hope everyone notes that these documents KGW published came from Houze. There seemed to be some question a while back where the news outlets were getting these filings. Looks like Houze may have been the source all along?
 
Also, I think this filing was 100% brilliance! I have a girl crush on Laura Rackner.
 
if you read the entire document the quoting of case law was astounding.
------

yes BeanE we will all need the lawyers to further delve into this one...that being said

------

she made very good points here and I applaud her for her representation of not only Kaine.. but of Kyron and his baby sister.

I pray that soon there will be actual movement in Kyron's case... I think that is what all of this bickering back and forth hinges on. MOO.

and even than.. the bickering may not end.... but this all about Kyron right? where is Kyron and who took him from his school that day.

thanks for this link/thread free!
 
Also, I think this filing was 100% brilliance! I have a girl crush on Laura Rackner.

I do so agree with you gwenabob. I'm sure it is a blessing for Kaine that he has someone so knowledgeable on his side but more importantly on Kyron and baby K's side. JMO.
 
Since we're talking rights, how about Baby K's right to see her mother - who hasn't even been charged in a crime?

debs has the right of it. LE either needs to act on the evidence they have, or publicly clear Terri. Until the criminal case proceeds (if it ever will), she's unable to present her case to the best of her abilities. This also hampers Kaine, in a way. The court can only rule on what it hears. Kaine may end up with a less than equitable result regarding the division of property and spousal support if Terri can not testify on her own behalf.

Frankly, a divorce action is not a test run for criminal proceedings. For Kyron to have justice, LE must assemble enough evidence to bring the case to trial. They do not have that evidence at this time - therefore, Terri is presumed innocent in the eyes of the law.
 
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