2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[Trt]

Wow, Gitana, thanks for that post! I had read the whole guideline book from
Oregon FAPA ROs and you still gave me some great info that I couldn't quite decipher in the statutes. I thought it was mentioned, back when the divorce and RO were first filed, that the judge had chosen to treat them
as one case instead of two seperate cases. Maybe it was just for the purposes of the initial hearings.

Again, thanks for that post. It really brings home the point that if Terri really is innocent, she is doing herself such a disservice if she wants to regain some type of custody of baby K in the future.

Jmo

 

[Billylee]

At issue were financial questions and an abatement proposal by Terri's lawyers to speed up the case. But a judge ruled the issues would all be addressed at one joint hearing on October 7.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Kaine--Terri-Horman-expected-in-court-today-101470199.html

I think this is the report you're referring to. Interestingly it doesn't specifically mention anything about the RO. If I'm reading Gitano's post correctly, the RO is separate from the dissolution, so it wouldn't be challenged during the disso whether it's abated or not. ??


I guess my question is, IF in fact TH is innocent, of both the MFH and the disappearance of Kyron, and that is the basis for the RO, which it is, would not the judge have to throw the RO out if and when it was proven in court that she is? And what happens to the RO if she is never, ever indicted for those charges, since that is the basis of the RO?

Not, sayng she IS innocent, just wondering what if.

 

[ThoughtFox]

In sum, I have seen repeatedly that TH is doing something strategic so she can get custody later on and not prejudice her future rights by contesting custody now. My professional opinion is that she has absolutely done the opposite. I see no legitimate, legal way of maneuvering out of the legal position she is now in, without custodial rights to her child. IMO, that shows that she had a very, very serious reason to compromise her ability to be in her child's life in any meaningful way, for the foreseeable future. We all have our opinions as to what that serious reason could be.

Thank you, Gitana1 for the really clear explanation! I understand it better now.

But you've confirmed for me what we talked about here when the RO was first filed ~ that perhaps Terri's main reason for not contesting the order is to avoid any psychiatric evaluation. Her strategy (if you can call it that) is to not go on the record about any of her strange behavior because she must know that she would never get visitation or custody privileges.

However, not fighting the RO makes her look as if she just doesn't care, which is almost worse.

But I think it's self-preservation, pure and simple.

Also, if she got some kind of visitation, then she might have to talk to Kaine. And her attorney is not going to let her talk to him because she might say something crazy or inflammatory, or make some threat again about taking the baby away. Fuel on the fire.

 

[Trt]

Hi BillyLee,

this is the article I'm referring to from way back in July. I'm not sure what this means, if the hearings were consolidated or of the judge is indeed treating these as one case going forward.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07...ulton-horman-to-appear-in-court-next-tuesday/

ETA: my understanding of the civil proceeding (ro) is that the judge has already received enough evidence to meet the burden of proof to decide that Terri was/is a danger to her daughter. Thus, a criminal court proceeding would not have any bearing on whether or not the RO stands. Nor would her being found not guilty(or never charged) of any of the allegations contained in the RO.

Jmo

 

[Billylee]

Terri Moulton Horman is scheduled to appear in front of Judge Keith Meisenheimer next Thursday, July 22, for a preliminary hearing in the combined divorce and restraining-order case brought by her husband, Kaine Horman.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07...ulton-horman-to-appear-in-court-next-tuesday/


Yes, I see what you mean it does look the RO and disso are being combined, but I wonder if that's just an error in reporting?

 

[debs]

The RO filed, with an attached affidavit from Kaine's attorney, gives reasons why the RO should have remained sealed. Listed were:


#2 Releasing it would make the parties subject to more media scrutiny. Kaine has been rather regular on the media circuit. Terri has yet to appear even once.

Also listed is the detriment to Kaine's privacy rights. What privacy has been determined to have been adversely affected, outside that which he himself has given to media?

#3 in the list of reasons to keep the RO sealed is that information in the proceedings could prove to be an embarrassment for the parties or for family members. Have these embarrassing reasons come out now that the RO has been released? How could they be financially damaging to the parties if they do come to light?

These are questions I have regarding the RO.

From these questions, I wonder whether Terri not challenging the RO was an act of good faith on HER part that things would proceed rapidly to end the marriage. Once that became apparent that it would not happen, an abatement was filed in order to proceed with the divorce and leave those "embarrassing" things to a later time.

 

[Donjeta]

The RO filed, with an attached affidavit from Kaine's attorney, gives reasons why the RO should have remained sealed. Listed were:


#2 Releasing it would make the parties subject to more media scrutiny. Kaine has been rather regular on the media circuit. Terri has yet to appear even once.

Also listed is the detriment to Kaine's privacy rights. What privacy has been determined to have been adversely affected, outside that which he himself has given to media?

Wasn't there talk about revealing his temporary address? It wasn't given to the media by him that I have seen. IIRC he didn't say anything about the MFH plot either before it was already out in the media. Not on record anyway.

When did Desiree and Kaine give the first interview that they stated openly that they think Terri did it?

#3 in the list of reasons to keep the RO sealed is that information in the proceedings could prove to be an embarrassment for the parties or for family members. Have these embarrassing reasons come out now that the RO has been released? How could they be financially damaging to the parties if they do come to light?

I don't know about finances but I think embarrassing may be a slight understatement. It would be very painful to me to have a document containing such allegations out in the open about me if I was an innocent stepmother, and it might have been better for her children to not have the world to know or erroneously believe all that stuff about their mother. Her parents and other members of her family might also find it a heartache.

It could have been embarrassing for the LS and MC as well but I don't know if Kaine worries about them at all.

These are questions I have regarding the RO.

From these questions, I wonder whether Terri not challenging the RO was an act of good faith on HER part that things would proceed rapidly to end the marriage. Once that became apparent that it would not happen, an abatement was filed in order to proceed with the divorce and leave those "embarrassing" things to a later time.

Why do you say that it became apparent that things would not proceed rapidly to end the marriage? What things?

 

[brighidin]

Also, if she got some kind of visitation, then she might have to talk to Kaine. And her attorney is not going to let her talk to him because she might say something crazy or inflammatory, or make some threat again about taking the baby away. Fuel on the fire.

I'm sure she wouldn't have to speak with him. Some sort of mediator/neutral third party would facilitate the visitation.

And I would like to join the chorus and thank gitana1 for the helpful explanation!

 

[debs]

Wasn't there talk about revealing his temporary address? It wasn't given to the media by him that I have seen. IIRC he didn't say anything about the MFH plot either before it was already out in the media. Not on record anyway.

But his temporary address wasn't given out, he was back in his own home before the RO was made public. I don't recall the MFH plot being discussed until after the RO was made public.

When did Desiree and Kaine give the first interview that they stated openly that they think Terri did it?

June 26 is one of the interviews I recall hearing that they talked about Terri's involvement. This was 2 days before the RO was issued.

I don't know about finances but I think embarrassing may be a slight understatement. It would be very painful to me to have a document containing such allegations out in the open about me if I was an innocent stepmother, and it might have been better for her children to not have the world to know or erroneously believe all that stuff about their mother. Her parents and other members of her family might also find it a heartache.

This was Kaine's attorney making the motion, and I am certain she doesn't give a rat's tooter about what would be embarrassing for Terri. But as to what Terri's children would read about her in the media, again, this attorney has not made it her business to protect Terri's reputation. I can only surmise that whatever embarrassing things she spoke of related to Kaine.

It could have been embarrassing for the LS and MC as well but I don't know if Kaine worries about them at all.

Again, it is not Kaine's attorney's business to issue protection for the reputation of this LS and MC.

Why do you say that it became apparent that things would not proceed rapidly to end the marriage? What things?

Terri was slapped with a restraining order keeping her from her child, and slapped with a divorce. In the RO, she was accused of kidnapping a child and attempting a mfh. I can't imagine anything else which would slow down a divorce than claims such as these.

 

[gitana1]

SBM.
Thank you gitana1 for taking the time to explain.

A little OT but does the above mean that Desiree would have had to show that Kaine was an unfit parent if she had wanted to change the custody orders after she got better after her illness and Kaine didn't agree?

Based on the law I recently reviewed, it kind of looks like that is what she would have had to show, to get primary custody back. Of course that is assuming she officially switched custody when she was sick.
However, the parties could change a custody order if both were in agreement. If not, it seems it would be very hard to regain custody but she could get much more "parenting time" (visitation). It looks like that's what happened.

At issue were financial questions and an abatement proposal by Terri's lawyers to speed up the case. But a judge ruled the issues would all be addressed at one joint hearing on October 7.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Kaine--Terri-Horman-expected-in-court-today-101470199.html

I think this is the report you're referring to. Interestingly it doesn't specifically mention anything about the RO. If I'm reading Gitano's post correctly, the RO is separate from the dissolution, so it wouldn't be challenged during the disso whether it's abated or not. ??

I guess my question is, IF in fact TH is innocent, of both the MFH and the disappearance of Kyron, and that is the basis for the RO, which it is, would not the judge have to throw the RO out if and when it was proven in court that she is? And what happens to the RO if she is never, ever indicted for those charges, since that is the basis of the RO?

Not, sayng she IS innocent, just wondering what if.

The RO is over. This is even if the cases have been consolidated. There are no more and will not be any more hearings on the RO unless she appeals the ruling, which found her to have committed DV, or unless she seeks to modify the no contact order with her daughter. She could do that, asking for some visitation, but that would not act to vacate the RO. It would only act to modify the contact she has with Baby K.

Also, IMO, the RO would not be vacated if she was cleared. I don't even think being cleared would be the basis of an appeal.

Hi BillyLee,

this is the article I'm referring to from way back in July. I'm not sure what this means, if the hearings were consolidated or of the judge is indeed treating these as one case going forward.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07...ulton-horman-to-appear-in-court-next-tuesday/

ETA: my understanding of the civil proceeding (ro) is that the judge has already received enough evidence to meet the burden of proof to decide that Terri was/is a danger to her daughter. Thus, a criminal court proceeding would not have any bearing on whether or not the RO stands. Nor would her being found not guilty(or never charged) of any of the allegations contained in the RO.

Jmo

My guess is that either the cases have been consolidated into one case number, or are being handled by the same judge. But the RO is over. She has been found to have committed DV and that is done.

 

[debs]

I looked on the RO for where it was claimed she committed domestic violence, even passively by not responding. There is no claim of that outside of Kaine's statement that in his opinion Terri tried to hire someone to kill him and kidnapped his son. It seems to me the RO was granted on unsubstantiated statements, which then forces Terri into a civil suit against Kaine at some point in time for defamation.

All very perplexing.

 

[gitana1]

The RO filed, with an attached affidavit from Kaine's attorney, gives reasons why the RO should have remained sealed. Listed were:


#2 Releasing it would make the parties subject to more media scrutiny. Kaine has been rather regular on the media circuit. Terri has yet to appear even once.

Also listed is the detriment to Kaine's privacy rights. What privacy has been determined to have been adversely affected, outside that which he himself has given to media?

#3 in the list of reasons to keep the RO sealed is that information in the proceedings could prove to be an embarrassment for the parties or for family members. Have these embarrassing reasons come out now that the RO has been released? How could they be financially damaging to the parties if they do come to light?

These are questions I have regarding the RO.

From these questions, I wonder whether Terri not challenging the RO was an act of good faith on HER part that things would proceed rapidly to end the marriage. Once that became apparent that it would not happen, an abatement was filed in order to proceed with the divorce and leave those "embarrassing" things to a later time.

Lawyers often put everything they can into a request for orders, in the event that the judge likes one reason over another. But I think it was very clear that the main reason for sealing was to protect the investigation, not the # 2 and #3 reasons you listed:

Judge Keith Meisenheimer sealed the restraining order to prevent it from compromising the investigation into Kyron's disappearance, according to the clerk in Meisenheimer's office."The highest priority we all have in the justice system is the effort to find Kyron," Meisenheimer said. "We don't want to do anything that would compromise that effort."

http://www.kptv.com/news/24083257/detail.html

You did not list the number one reason to seal the RO application. Could that be it? I cannot find it but I do see that the prosecutor's office filed an affidavit stating that they believed sealing was necessary to protect the on-going investigation:

Here is a letter that Chief Deputy District Attorney Norman Frink sent to judge Meisenheimer

Your honor:
This confirms my discussion with you earlier this evening. After speaking with Mr. Bosworth and Ms. Rackner, I called you and informed you that, given the media coverage over the past long weekend, the Multnomah County Major Crimes Team could no longer stand by its assertion in my affidavit of July 2 that unsealing the sealed matters before you would undermine our on-going criminal investigation. I express no opinion on any position Terri Horman might have in the matter.
You told me of your intent to decide what further action was warranted after you reviewed the sealed documents when your court was open again on Thursday, July 8.
Yours very truly,
Norman W. Frink
Chief Deputy District Attorney
Multnomah County, Oregon

http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/n...Kyron-Horman/Dz4uMChK60KCWjy3W5FG4Q.cspx?p=12

 

[Donjeta]

But his temporary address wasn't given out, he was back in his own home before the RO was made public. I don't recall the MFH plot being discussed until after the RO was made public.

That was my point, sort of. IIRC Kaine didn't go on the media circuit to talk about the MFH until the damage was done and the RO and the plot were made public. It says to me that he and/or his attorney didn't want the allegations in the media.

June 26 is one of the interviews I recall hearing that they talked about Terri's involvement. This was 2 days before the RO was issued.

Would you happen to have a link to that? June 26 was when Kaine moved out, I couldn't find any interviews from that day from the Today's current news thread. On June 25 they gave several interviews and I didn't watch them all but he minimized Terri's involvement in this one:
http://www.kptv.com/news/24037975/detail.html

Reporter: Also, in an unusual move, they put out this flier to anyone associated with Kyron's school. They put Terri's pictures and pictures of the white truck on it. What was your reaction when that happened? What was Terri's reaction?

Kaine Horman: I can't speak to Terri's reaction, but my reaction to it -- photos of the things that were last seen associated with him that day. Through the process we've gone through, we've been asked the same question dozens of times. In a lot of cases, when you change the frame of reference, you think of new things and new angles that you haven't thought of before. From my perspective, issuing that questionnaire is just another way to get another angle or perspective from people who were at the school that day -- and hopefully, more data points and leads that perhaps they didn't think of the first time through when they were interviewed by the detectives and investigators at the school. I actually view it as a very positive step.

Reporter: Police have said they don't have any suspects yet or persons of interest. Did you feel like that flier being out with your wife's pictures on it painted her as a suspect at all?

Kaine Horman: No. She was one of the last people who saw him that day. It just helped associate things that were seen along with him on that particular day, so no.

This was Kaine's attorney making the motion, and I am certain she doesn't give a rat's tooter about what would be embarrassing for Terri. But as to what Terri's children would read about her in the media, again, this attorney has not made it her business to protect Terri's reputation. I can only surmise that whatever embarrassing things she spoke of related to Kaine.

IMO the attorney did what she could to protect Terri's reputation when she wanted the RO petition sealed but of course it's not her client's main concern and no doubt her reputation became less of a concern when it was already damaged beyond easy fixing.

Kaine and Desiree have become more vocal later but IMO the above quote among a few others seems to indicate that in the early days Kaine avoided throwing her under the bus and shielded her. I think it was partly concern for the children, partly for Terri (who he must have cared for if he married her?), maybe concern for some other relatives. He could be embarrassed for his own sake as well to have the trainwreck of his marriage go public. It is not pleasant to have marital dirty laundry in the media if you like your privacy and especially if it can always lead to a lot of speculation about what terrible things he did and didn't do to make his wife want to kill him. Some people might come up with true things and others with false speculation and both could be embarrassing or painful for him now and his daughter later when she understands it.

Again, it is not Kaine's attorney's business to issue protection for the reputation of this LS and MC.

No but she might have thought that it might be wise to play nice, avoid putting the negative spotlight on them if possible because it might cause them difficulties and make them mad. They might be needed as witnesses at some point and I assume that they wouldn't like their witnesses to be made more hostile than necessary.

Terri was slapped with a restraining order keeping her from her child, and slapped with a divorce. In the RO, she was accused of kidnapping a child and attempting a mfh. I can't imagine anything else which would slow down a divorce than claims such as these.

Yeah but it doesn't make sense to me that she failed to contest the RO because she thought that they'd have a quickie divorce and then filed the abatement because she later realized that the kidnapping allegations would slow the divorce down. She already knew about the divorce-slowing MFH and the kidnapping allegations at the time she didn't contest the RO.

 

[debs]

Right. That letter states they could no longer make the claim (assert) that talking about the RO would have any affect on their criminal case. I believe the point I wanted to make was that, while this was listed first, it was not listed prolifically. Kaine's attorney was making the point that her client would be embarrassed or bugged by the media.

what could that embarrassment be, and if the media was an issue, why did she not ask her client to cease speaking with the media?

 

[gitana1]

But his temporary address wasn't given out, he was back in his own home before the RO was made public. I don't recall the MFH plot being discussed until after the RO was made public.

Terri was slapped with a restraining order keeping her from her child, and slapped with a divorce. In the RO, she was accused of kidnapping a child and attempting a mfh. I can't imagine anything else which would slow down a divorce than claims such as these.

Respectfully snipped by me for space.

Kaine did not move back in before the RO was unsealed. It was unsealed on 7-8-10. He amended the RO to request to be able to move back in on the very same day.
http://🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978357768

 

[SmoothOperator]

Originally posted by Donjeta

Would you happen to have a link to that? June 26 was when Kaine moved out, I couldn't find any interviews from that day from the Today's current news thread. On June 25 they gave several interviews and I didn't watch them all but he minimized Terri's involvement in this one

You're right, Donjeta!

There were no interviews on the 26th of June. D and K had a media blitz on the 25th where he stated that Terri was cooperating and wanted the same as they all did, for Kyron to be found. It was on the 26th that Kaine was revealed by LE the MFH and the involvement of Terri in Kyron's "disappearance". The only interview on the 26th is the reporter asking Terri in their driveway of the rumor of Kaine moving out and Terri replying, "Everything is fine and that is a rumore that needs to be squashed"... Kaine nor Desiree gave any interviews that weekend and the only thing that was released was a statement from the 3 parents(minus Terri) about that they all were seeking Kyron to be found and were still being briefed by LE... Still nothing negative whatsoever about Terri.

It wasnt until Terri, herself violated the RO by showing to MC and having it photoed, along with sharing Kaine's address, at this time is when the details became public of the RO. Which led to the RO being unsealed and the contempt charges against Terri.

She threw her own self under the bus by violating the order, among other very poorchoices that she's made. Kaine and Desiree spoke about Terri's involvement only afterthefact of Terri's detrimental choices and violations..

 

[debs]

Respectfully snipped by me for space.

Kaine did not move back in before the RO was unsealed. It was unsealed on 7-8-10. He amended the RO to request to be able to move back in on the very same day.
http://🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978357768

you're right. My bad eyes added a 1 where there was none.

 

[Donjeta]

Right. That letter states they could no longer make the claim (assert) that talking about the RO would have any affect on their criminal case. I believe the point I wanted to make was that, while this was listed first, it was not listed prolifically. Kaine's attorney was making the point that her client would be embarrassed or bugged by the media.

what could that embarrassment be, and if the media was an issue, why did she not ask her client to cease speaking with the media?

I don't know if she recommended it at some point or not but IMO things might change depending on the current situation. Sometimes you might prefer not to have the media in your private business at all, but once they are all over your business anyway you might prefer to have the chance to get your own perspective out there on your terms.

 

[debs]

I don't know if she recommended it at some point or not but IMO things might change depending on the current situation. Sometimes you might prefer not to have the media in your private business at all, but once they are all over your business anyway you might prefer to have the chance to get your own perspective out there on your terms.

It still stands to reason that whatever Kaine's attorney believed might be embarrassing would be embarrassing for her client, whose interests she is paid to protect. Preferring to get things out on your own terms seems a lot like manipulating the judicial system in order to best benefit oneself.

 

[Donjeta]

It still stands to reason that whatever Kaine's attorney believed might be embarrassing would be embarrassing for her client, whose interests she is paid to protect. Preferring to get things out on your own terms seems a lot like manipulating the judicial system in order to best benefit oneself.

That seems a bit harsh to me. Everybody prefers to get things out on their own terms and of course Kaine doesn't want himself to be damaged by the media if it's avoidable. The judicial system should be able to distinguish between evidence and between hearsay they've heard on interviews IMO. If not, we're all in trouble but it's not Kaine's fault IMO but the judicial system's.