2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

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Gitana, Thanks for making the asset disclosure a little more clear. I think (?).

In the Horman case, KH could argue that TH has access to funds from her parents. That she asked that those funds be used for her criminal defense expenses and not her disso attorney's fees. So, depending on the amount that was paid, she made a choice of where those funds would go and KH should not have to pay for her attorney's fees. He could also argue that because a third party essentially gifted her a large sum, she is in a better position financially than him, after all the assets and debts are divided, and thus she should pay his fees.
But he has to know how much and from where in order to make those arguments.

Okay, now clear this up for me. If, Kaine's attorney has to know how much and from whom in order to argue. Why is it that Bunch & Houze don't get to know the details behind the RO in order to argue?

Isn't that the same type of issue?
 
Gitana, Thanks for making the asset disclosure a little more clear. I think (?).

In the Horman case, KH could argue that TH has access to funds from her parents. That she asked that those funds be used for her criminal defense expenses and not her disso attorney's fees. So, depending on the amount that was paid, she made a choice of where those funds would go and KH should not have to pay for her attorney's fees. He could also argue that because a third party essentially gifted her a large sum, she is in a better position financially than him, after all the assets and debts are divided, and thus she should pay his fees.
But he has to know how much and from where in order to make those arguments.

Okay, now clear this up for me. If, Kaine's attorney has to know how much and from whom in order to argue. Why is it that Bunch & Houze don't get to know the details behind the RO in order to argue?

Isn't that the same type of issue?

I think it is because the MFH details are part of a criminal investigation.
 
Why would Kyron's residence be an issue? His primary residence is with his Dad and I would assume it would remain so, unless and until Desiree went to court to make amendments to the custody agreement?
 
Why would Kyron's residence be an issue? His primary residence is with his Dad and I would assume it would remain so, unless and until Desiree went to court to make amendments to the custody agreement?

Kaine seems to be realizing that his household was not very stable before Kyron's disappearance. Or maybe he already knew it.

The restraining order referred to both Kyron and little K--and it is part of this proceeding. Family court seems to me to be the right place for Kaine to get a judge's order that Terri stay away from Kyron after he is found. If Terri gets visitation with little K, the handoff will be at the very least a neutral place.

As his primary caregiver Terri may have some standing in Oregon to ask for contact with Kyron (in my state stepparents do not). If it turns out that Terri did not know anything about Kyron's disappearance and LE has been lying about the MFH and the sexting, I think it would be in Kyron's best interest to have some contact with Terri. Either way, the judge will have to decide if the parties cannot work it out themselves.
 
I am curious as to why the DA was in the courtroom taking notes also. Does anyone with more of a legal mind than mine (not hard to have) have any idea why? Was he maybe waiting for something that didn't happen? IDK
 
But they are the basis of the RO, how can the RO be argued against if they do not have the info?

That's a different question.

Apparently protection of the details of a criminal investigation trump a person's right to defend themselves in a civil trial. IANAL, but gitana says that is what makes this case interesting. She knows about many more cases than I, but apparently this is a bit of a gray area.

I only know about related civil trials from families who have sued a suspect in civil court (like OJ) where the standard of proof is lower to get a conviction.
 
That, and I guess for me, that "we" is inclusive in the family way, not the lawyerly way. Like there's someone else helping get those "routines" set for the kids. Like someone helping make that "household".......IMO.

Like maybe his parents? Desiree? Day care provider? What difference does it make WHO is helping this poor man with his children? I don't get your concern over this pronoun.
 
I am very confused. Is this a civil case against Terri now, the divorce? And if it is, wouldn't discovery apply, i.e. anything that caused Kaine to bring the case in front of a court? It does not seem right, somehow, that the person being sued for divorce does not get to have the information that forced the other person to sue.

Or is it all about testifying? Meaning she can't know what they have unless she gets on the stand?

I'm really trying to find a way that Terri did not do this (harm/kill Kyron) and it is getting more difficult every day. (This case is giving me nightmares. Most recently, that Terri put Kyron out of the car that day in anger, and then couldn't find him again. And still can't.)
 
I am curious as to why the DA was in the courtroom taking notes also. Does anyone with more of a legal mind than mine (not hard to have) have any idea why? Was he maybe waiting for something that didn't happen? IDK

That was my guess. And he might be trying to think of ways to frame some of Bunch's statements in the context of what he knows. For example, this incongruous argument that Terri does not want to incriminate herself with his other argument that she has done none of these things. He may try to point that out to a jury.

He may also want to bring in that Terri did not contest the restraining order. These things might help the prosecution with the jury.
 
It was stated that Terri's attorneys feel that LE is using the civil case to gather information to take a criminal case forward.

It does stand to reason if the Deputy District Attorney is sitting in a divorce case, there is some deeper meaning than he was just hanging out and had a few free hours.

I can't imagine it is typical for the DDA to do this, which is why I asked if it could appear prejudicial, and whether Terri's attorneys could argue that. If the proceeding was closed to the public and the DDA was just hanging around, he's being afforded a privilege the rest of the public is not. If the proceeding was open, free seat, yay!

That's why I asked. I don't know! :) Hope that helps

I am sure the judge, as well as Houze is familiar with all the DAs. If he thought it would be somehow prejudicial, I imagine the DA would have been asked to leave. They are pretty smart people you know. I'm sure they would have thought of that.
 
Originally Posted by 32beatspersecond
Could be that kyron's return is already prearranged as part of the original plan...

what 'original plan' would that be?
 
I am sure the judge, as well as Houze is familiar with all the DAs. If he thought it would be somehow prejudicial, I imagine the DA would have been asked to leave. They are pretty smart people you know. I'm sure they would have thought of that.

You know, I said this earlier on, and I may be all wrong here, but I said it before I knew the DA was even in the courtroom, that I really think the judge was giving the DA a bit of a warning in his decision and that the DA and LE are treading in waters that are possibly drowning a person's constitutional rights, and that they need to get their ducks in a row before they drown as well. JMHO
So, I would not be surprised if something in this case breaks within the next 90 days, one way or another.
 
Let's suppose any of us found ourselves in this situation.

One day, your child is gone. I mean...can"t all of us have the empathy to try to "feel" what that would be like? You are crazed with grief and worry. Now the police tell you that your spouse has tried to hire someone to kill you...and probably is the one who did harm to your child.

Let that sink in. Don't think of Kaine. Think it's you...or your son and daughter-in-law.

People you love.

Would you then...do what?

Stay in the marriage? Sleep in that bed? Just leave your ONLY OTHER child alone with the spouse that LE says is involved?

If you can say for sure, you would do that...then you can cast stones at Kaine.

If you can say for sure...that, having left on advice of LE... you would hand over gladly and without fear, your only other child...then you can advocate Kaine doing so to Terri.

I think about Kaine's situation so much. The thought of handing his only surviving child into the arms of the woman LE told him tried to kill him and hurt Kyron...however would he bring himself to do that?

Are there really people who would just whistle a tune, hand over Baby K...and drive away smiling...never having the slightest worry?

BBM

This was almost exactly the situation my husband faced with his ex-wife. She abducted their son (he had primary custody), disappeared him for over six months and then had to take him to an ER when he was non-responsive and in respiratory arrest from abuse he suffered in her custody.

In other words, he was about as close to dead as a child can be. If she had been delayed by even three minutes in getting him there, the doctors told my husband his son would have been dead.

As it was, his son had a major skull fracture plus bruises and third degree burns all over his body. Little round burns, exactly the size of a cigarette. His mother said that it was her second husband.

She was charged and plea bargained down the charges to custodial interference and neglect, served time in prison and was then released. When she was released, this woman convicted of custodial interference went back to court to try to get joint custody!

The judge did not grant her joint custody but ruled that it was in her son's best interests that she have X hours of supervised visitation per week, at a certain agency. That agency had armed guards and a social worker who stayed in the room with mother and son for the duration of every visit and who had the authority to stop her or remove her from the premises if she did anything that might be harmful to her son.

This was not someone my husband merely "believed" had hurt his son. This was a woman who had been convicted in a court of law and served time in prison for doing so.

The child therapist that was treating his son told my husband that in her opinion, having a limited and carefully supervised relationship with his mother would be good for his son. That children suffer when their relationship with one parent is cut off, even if that parent never had primary custody in the child's entire life. Sometimes the severing of the relationship is inevitably permanent (death of parent, for instance) but if it does not have to be permanent, why put the child through unnecessary pain?

So my husband did what I believe a good parent does: sucked it up, set aside his personal feelings of betrayal and distrust, made sure to deliver his son on time for visitation as ordered.

All went well for several months. His mother would have had to get away from a social worker, make her way through an airlock entrance past armed guards to get away with her son. So her next attempt to abduct him came when she showed up at my husband's home (which violated her RO and conditions of parole) to try to talk him into allowing her to take their son to MacDonalds for a special treat. My husband adamantly refused and threatened to call the police.

She disappeared. Her family has not heard from her in the 30+ years since then, despite hiring several PIs.

Last Mother's Day, I talked to my stepson on the phone. He made me cry because he told me that all his life he has been convinced that his mother disappeared because there was something so bad about him that she could not love him. And that discovering I loved him made him feel better, like maybe there was some hope for him after all.

I believe that is one of the kinds of pain that his therapist was trying to warn my husband about so many years ago. That his son was at risk for feeling unlovable, like a bad kid, if his mother just disappeared out of his life.

Sadly, that's exactly what she chose to do.

To answer your question then: my husband chose to put his son's best interests ahead of his own feelings once he had been assured that to do so would not expose his son to any danger from his mother.

Isn't that what good parents do? A good parent watches the pediatrician put a needle THAT BIG into their baby's tender flesh in order to protect them from diseases. That first day of preschool or kindergarten, a good parent shows up and acts happy and excited for their child, then goes back to the car and weeps a bit at that first passage to eventual adulthood.

A good parent understands that their child's emotional well being has to come before their own desires to wrap them up in cotton wool and keep them in a bubble until age forty... or so.
 
BBM

This was almost exactly the situation my husband faced with his ex-wife. She abducted their son (he had primary custody), disappeared him for over six months and then had to take him to an ER when he was non-responsive and in respiratory arrest from abuse he suffered in her custody.

In other words, he was about as close to dead as a child can be. If she had been delayed by even three minutes in getting him there, the doctors told my husband his son would have been dead.

As it was, his son had a major skull fracture plus bruises and third degree burns all over his body. Little round burns, exactly the size of a cigarette. His mother said that it was her second husband.

She was charged and plea bargained down the charges to custodial interference and neglect, served time in prison and was then released. When she was released, this woman convicted of custodial interference went back to court to try to get joint custody!

The judge did not grant her joint custody but ruled that it was in her son's best interests that she have X hours of supervised visitation per week, at a certain agency. That agency had armed guards and a social worker who stayed in the room with mother and son for the duration of every visit and who had the authority to stop her or remove her from the premises if she did anything that might be harmful to her son.

This was not someone my husband merely "believed" had hurt his son. This was a woman who had been convicted in a court of law and served time in prison for doing so.

The child therapist that was treating his son told my husband that in her opinion, having a limited and carefully supervised relationship with his mother would be good for his son. That children suffer when their relationship with one parent is cut off, even if that parent never had primary custody in the child's entire life. Sometimes the severing of the relationship is inevitably permanent (death of parent, for instance) but if it does not have to be permanent, why put the child through unnecessary pain?

So my husband did what I believe a good parent does: sucked it up, set aside his personal feelings of betrayal and distrust, made sure to deliver his son on time for visitation as ordered.

All went well for several months. His mother would have had to get away from a social worker, make her way through an airlock entrance past armed guards to get away with her son. So her next attempt to abduct him came when she showed up at my husband's home (which violated her RO and conditions of parole) to try to talk him into allowing her to take their son to MacDonalds for a special treat. My husband adamantly refused and threatened to call the police.

She disappeared. Her family has not heard from her in the 30+ years since then, despite hiring several PIs.

Last Mother's Day, I talked to my stepson on the phone. He made me cry because he told me that all his life he has been convinced that his mother disappeared because there was something so bad about him that she could not love him. And that discovering I loved him made him feel better, like maybe there was some hope for him after all.

I believe that is one of the kinds of pain that his therapist was trying to warn my husband about so many years ago. That his son was at risk for feeling unlovable, like a bad kid, if his mother just disappeared out of his life.

Sadly, that's exactly what she chose to do.

To answer your question then: my husband chose to put his son's best interests ahead of his own feelings once he had been assured that to do so would not expose his son to any danger from his mother.

Isn't that what good parents do? A good parent watches the pediatrician put a needle THAT BIG into their baby's tender flesh in order to protect them from diseases. That first day of preschool or kindergarten, a good parent shows up and acts happy and excited for their child, then goes back to the car and weeps a bit at that first passage to eventual adulthood.

A good parent understands that their child's emotional well being has to come before their own desires to wrap them up in cotton wool and keep them in a bubble until age forty... or so.

Thank you for sharing your touching story. I am glad your son survived and it sounds like he is doing ok.

However, I have to disagree with the theory the social worker put forth to you. While I agree it is detrimental for a child to be abandoned by a parent, I have to assert that it is even MORE detrimental to force a relationship with a parent that is based on physical and mental cruelty. He thought she didn't love him because she walked away. Would he have felt she loved him more if he continued his childhood with an abusive mother? At least he did not have to live his whole childhood in that abusive lifestyle, only to pass it on to another generation. Thank goodness he had you and his father to show him a better way.

I think sometimes that needle we give our kids with our eyes closed can represent excising an evil person out of their life as well. Just because a person can reproduce does not mean that person has the capacity or will to be a good parent. I do not think children should bear the brunt of bad parenting just because the latest social services theory says it is best.

Again, thank you for sharing.
 
I understand that many here believe Kaine should just hand over Baby K to Terri. I am speaking from my heart. I do feel his fear. Must be close to terror. But I am willing to consider all arguments..of those who believe he should not be concerned. I'm even curious to hear them. That's why we are here...no?

SBM & BBM

Here is part of my frustration. I have seen absolutely ZERO posts from anyone suggesting that TMH be given unsupervised visitation.

What I, and apparently others, believe is that it would be in Baby K's own best interests to have carefully supervised visitation with her mother.

Such visitation could and should involve continuous observation by a qualified third party, security measures in place (which would include armed security guards), etc.

I just made a post in which I described what my husband had to do: allow visitation with his son for his ex, who had been convicted of custodial interference and neglect (which almost resulted in their son's death).

Sometimes two empathetic people can see things differently.
 
That, and I guess for me, that "we" is inclusive in the family way, not the lawyerly way. Like there's someone else helping get those "routines" set for the kids. Like someone helping make that "household".......IMO.

If you're thinking 'we' as in another adult, such as a female - you know, how Terri moved in with Kaine after he and Desiree separated to take on the role model of 'live in nanny and mistress' - I would say, NOT! Kaine has already lost his son in the hands of another woman. Unlike Terri, I seriously doubt he is standing there with cell phone in hand, sexting away with the next 'nanny' candidate. I find it very insensitive and insulting, to say the least. As a matter of fact, I will go one step further and say that the dissection of Kaine's statement is nothing but a red herring.
 
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