2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

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bbm

I don't recall this...

It wasn't. It was in the RO contempt thingie, which Kaine dropped.

http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib/107/b/2/c/b2c0c26c-4221-4fde-a923-fa5788b1ad69/Horman.pdf

Sexting is off the table. So to speak. :)

ETA: Wait a minute. I'm gonna ask in the lawyer thread whether sexting is off the table since Kaine tossed the contempt thingie.

ETA 2: Here's my question in the lawyer thread on this, so if anyone wants to get to the answer quickly, it should be soon after this post:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5690961&postcount=358"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Questions for our VERIFIED LAWYERS*~*~*NO DISCUSSIONS*~*~*[/ame]
 
I don't think she will. What I meant by HOW she was asking was the tone of this motion. She's not getting up there and begging the court to see her own child and why that would be in baby K's best interests. She's letting some expert who doesn't even know her, and who can only quote on general cases and studies that seeing a child is best for the mother. That's it. No begging, no nothing by Terri herself to see her own child. She doesn't even want to pay for seeing her own child! I haven't seen her lift one finger to do anything to benefit this child. That just isn't right to expect everyone else to get do the work for her. She can't just sit there silently and expect to get what she wants. She has SUCH an attitude of entitlement. It's just crazy that she says she love this child, but doesn't say or actually do anything herself to see her. Let the lawyers, experts, and Kaine handle it. That has been her attitude thus far.

I understand she has the legal right to ask, but that doesn't mean that the judge has to give her the answer she wants. If she's not willing to beg, plead, and do whatever she has to do to see her own child to keep CYAing herself, that is just morally wrong to me. And to expect Kaine to pay for supervised visitation is just reprehensible. So she has a deep pocket for a good defense, but no money whatsover for this supposed, beloved child? Wow, if that isn't blatantly saying where her priorities are, I don't know what else could be more obvious. I'm sure friends and family would help her see her own child. But she'd rather make sure she has a dream defense lawyer instead.

But I understand that this is probably SOP for her lawyer. I understand that she legally has the right to ask. It doesn't mean I agree with how she asked and what she is asking for. I'm just waiting for the judge to answer her with a big, fat NO.

It's painfully obvious that Terri still only cares about Terri. I think I'm more on the moral side while others are more on the legal side. But we can agree to disagree.

I love my DD dearly, but if I were in TH's shoes, I would probably try to keep myself out of jail as my #1 priority as well. What good does visitation do if I'm in jail, kwim? Keeping myself out of jail so I can spend the rest of my life with my children would be my priority.

She has deep pockets? No job, no unemployment, no home, no car? Where are those deep pockets? Or do you mean the deep pockets that paid the undisclosed amount to Houze?
 
AZLawyer is clarifying lots of this in the "Questions for our Verified Lawyers" thread and has a wonderful talent for putting legalese into an answer that's easy to understand. It's very much worth a visit to the last page of that thread.

ETA: ALL the verified lawyers on that thread are wonderful. It's just that AZLawyer has answered lots of questions specific to the visitation we are discussing.
 
I love my DD dearly, but if I were in TH's shoes, I would probably try to keep myself out of jail as my #1 priority as well. What good does visitation do if I'm in jail, kwim? Keeping myself out of jail so I can spend the rest of my life with my children would be my priority.

She has deep pockets? No job, no unemployment, no home, no car? Where are those deep pockets? Or do you mean the deep pockets that paid the undisclosed amount to Houze?

Not saying I wouldn't try to keep myself out of jail as well but people can have visitation in jail too and while it's a more uncomfortable and more restricted environment I'm sure it can do good in terms of keeping up the parent-child relationship.
 
It may be SOP to ask for a client to have visitation granted without needing to answer any questions from the court when there is a standing RO. I know a woman who had an RO and the "bad guy" constantly called to ask to see the children. Who were included in the RO. We see this story play out everyday on the boards-people have RO's and invite the offender back into their lives....or even for a simple visit. They give in just a little.

Apparently Kaine is not so inclined without a little give and take or some kind of stipulation. I think that is fair. He has to ensure the safety of his present child. JMVHO.
 
Our verified attorney desquire posted that it's not illegal:

Just an observation: this thread and the web comment pages to the news stories about this motion are Exhibit #1 in support of why abatement was the right thing to do. Divorce proceedings can be nasty messy things. Here we have people castigating TH for wanting supervised visitation with her own daughter and including pretty standard fee requests in her motion. Imagine what the public reaction will be when she has to start filing and responding to the standard discovery requests. People are (incorrectly) branding the discussions between counsel as criminal violations of the RO. Imagine the public beating TH will take if/when she pursues any line that questions KH's suitability for custody. Yikes.
 
It wasn't. It was in the RO contempt thingie, which Kaine dropped.

http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib/107/b/2/c/b2c0c26c-4221-4fde-a923-fa5788b1ad69/Horman.pdf

Sexting is off the table. So to speak. :)

JMO but I don't think the sexting ever was a very significant factor in the parenting issue. Lots of parents sext and take good care of their children regardless. Infidelity is not a reason to forbid parents to see their children. Even if the circumstances in Terri's case show a some bad judgement since it became a public embarrassment sexting does not endanger anybody's children directly if it's strictly between adults.

Mere sexting is not even a reason to grant a RO between ex-spouses IMO unless it involves harassment or some kind of threat.
 
"When a court handling a restraining order case designs the order so that the abusive parent can have contact with the children, this is NOT the same thing as giving the abusive parent visitation rights. Under the law, courts are not supposed to give visitation rights (that is, legally enforceable visitation rights) to a defendant in a restraining order case. Visitation rights can only be established in a family law case such as a divorce or custody case or a case involving determination of paternity for children whose parents are not married to each other. Visitation rights can only be established in a Probate & Family Court."
http://www.masslegalhelp.org/childre...and-visitation
----------------

This is posted on the Verified Lawyers thread and hopefully one of these very nice attorneys will give their opinion on it.
 
This isn't a motion for custody talks related to the dissolution. It's for a hearing to modify the parenting time in the RO, which Terri has a right to request, by law. I don't believe Kaine can interfere with that process.

Hmmm. This was posted in response to my post about Kaine having the same right as Terri to keep his evidence silent because of the case. Not sure it matters if they are making the same argument based on the same exact thing or the same argument based on related issues, but if it's logical that Terri keeps her evidence hidden because of the potential court case, then Kaine should have the same right to protect his own evidence for the potential court case, IMO.
 
If what her attorney did was illegal or against the rules of the court, there would not have been repeated attempts --- just one.

Asking what they asked is not illegal. It would have been illegal for Kaine and Rackner to agree to the requests. Kaine and his lawyer have zero authority when it comes to granting Terri time with her child.

Jmo
 
Of course it would have been an option. That's obvious, because that's what Bunch attempted to do; had it been outside the rules of procedure, Rackner would have jumped on it. And I don't think the RO prevents Mr. Bunch from contacting or coming within x feet of Ms. Rackner.

In attempting to go this route, they could have then approached the court and given him their agreement hammered out between themselves (the attorneys for both sides), thus saving the judge a lot of headache knowing the parties were in agreement and him not having to sort through motion / response / response to the response, and then conducting a hearing. He would be under no obligation to grant the parenting time, and he could add or delete specific requirements for the supervised visitation, of course.

These attempts by Bunch were not "circumventing" anything. It simply relieves the burden on the court and streamlines the process.


Again, Terri has an RO against her. An RO that can ONLy be modified IF Terri or Kai e requests that it be modified and then either motioning party would have to provide the judge with answers as to why Terri is now not a danger to her daughter based on the allegations contained in the RO. A mutual agreement between both parties is a moot point and would hold little weight in a proceeding where the judge has already determined that Terri IS a danger to baby K.

Yeah, they could have gotten Kaine to motion for the modification, but he would then have to explain why he has changed his mind about the allegations that led him to file for the RO. Assuming he hasn't, he nor his lawyer could assist Terri with what she needs to do to try and get visitation with K.

This is not a standard custody case where Terri canjust come in with Kaine's blessing and pictures of her and a happy K and get the order modified. Their attempts to try and get Kaine and his lawyer to do something that Terri and her lawyers have been unwilling to do to date seems like circumvention to me. Jmo
 
Our verified attorney desquire posted that it's not illegal:

I don't think anyone has said it was illegal. I stand by my assertion that it was an attempt to circumvent the procedures that Terri and her lawyers have to follow in order to get the RO modified. I also believe that it would have been illegal for Kaine to agree to Any contact outside of a judge's ruling. That is in the RO. Both petitioner and respondent can be held accountable for not following the order. Jmo
 
Our verified attorney desquire posted that it's not illegal:

It most certainly WOULD violate the restraining order if Kaine were to allow Terri to visit K without the judge modifying the order first. It absolutely IS against the law to take it upon oneself to disregard the provisions of the RO, whether one is the petitioner or the respondent.

And Bunch is WELL aware of this, which makes his assertion that Terri has asked for parenting time with K all the more obvious that it's a ploy to soften her public image. He's quite aware that--whether it's lawyer via lawyer or respondent via petitioner--the order cannot be modified until the modification request is presented to and presided over the appropriate judge. That regardless if Terri asked 100 times to visit K, neither Kaine nor his attorney can grant that permission--Bunch is aware that only the judge can do so.
 
I don't think anyone has said it was illegal. I stand by my assertion that it was an attempt to circumvent the procedures that Terri and her lawyers have to follow in order to get the RO modified. I also believe that it would have been illegal for Kaine to agree to Any contact outside of a judge's ruling. That is in the RO. Both petitioner and respondent can be held accountable for not following the order. Jmo

It most certainly WOULD violate the restraining order if Kaine were to allow Terri to visit K without the judge modifying the order first. It absolutely IS against the law to take it upon oneself to disregard the provisions of the RO, whether one is the petitioner or the respondent.

And Bunch is WELL aware of this, which makes his assertion that Terri has asked for parenting time with K all the more obvious that it's a ploy to soften her public image. He's quite aware that--whether it's lawyer via lawyer or respondent via petitioner--the order cannot be modified until the modification request is presented to and presided over the appropriate judge. That regardless if Terri asked 100 times to visit K, neither Kaine nor his attorney can grant that permission--Bunch is aware that only the judge can do so.

This is the post and conversation stream to which I was responding:


Or it falls into one of those gray areas...


It was regarding the conversations and negotiations between the attorneys. Again, as I posted upthread, I never said they didn't have to go to court to finalize it.

Thanks though.
 
The beauty of Terri filing to modify is that it will bring Kaine out on the record, and it quite possibly will bring witnesses out on the record. Terri has to be there... and, if I understand correctly, she expects to remain silent during the hearing.

She may receive supervised visitation. It's happened in other cases with parents every bit as [suspicious] as Terri.

But it will be intriguing to watch how she expects to "fight" for her rights to visit K when she has no intention of opening her mouth at the hearing. Will be very interesting indeed.

In my opinion, Terri waiting four months to "fight" for parenting time while having no intention of speaking at the hearing--rings hollow.
 
This isn't a motion for custody talks related to the dissolution. It's for a hearing to modify the parenting time in the RO, which Terri has a right to request, by law. I don't believe Kaine can interfere with that process.


I am not an attorney, but I don't see how Terri can modify parenting time. She has no parenting time.

It would seem that this type of modification would apply when there is parenting time already established.

I am curious. Do people feel that Diane Downs should have been granted parenting time with her daughter?
 
Just want to say that you all make such good points, that I have nothing to say......I think we will find out from the judge what can and cannot be done, and I wonder if anyone has any kind of inside knowledge as to when that may be. ?
 
This is the post and conversation stream to which I was responding:





It was regarding the conversations and negotiations between the attorneys. Again, as I posted upthread, I never said they didn't have to go to court to finalize it.

Thanks though.

Not trying to be argumentative, but the OP didn't state that the talks were illegal either. The talks were moot because they would not be able to go into court with just a mutual agreement and get a judge to sign off and finalize it. This is a restraining order, not a custody hearing or mediation attempt. Terri has some very serious allegations against her which the judge deemed credible enough to keep her child away from her for at least a year without any input from her being required. There is nothing in the Oregon law statutes that I've read that allow Kaine and Terri to come to a mutual agreement about contact with K once the order is in effect. Jmo
 
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