2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[cluciano63]

Of course, no one would be expected to guess that a spouse might make a child vanish, if that is what happened, but there was never going to be a good outcome in this household. Even if Kaine tried his best to work from home often, days such as June 4th, he had to be gone for more than 6 hours and that is an eternity to leave an alcoholic in charge. I don't know how he could possibly get any work done, worrying about what might be going on at home.

I am sure there are similar households all over the country and maybe even on my street for all I know. I think it is shocking in part because in the earliest days of this case, we were presented with what looked like a well-functioning "blended" family.

I do hope Desiree was warned in advance of Kaine's recent declarations and is not just learning along with us about the level of Terri's issues.

 

[grandmaj]

Terri "would pass out" "around 7 or 8pm".

"Typically", Terri would "be passed out". The baby "would be up past midnight playing or watching tv". "Sometimes", "if" Kaine tried to put the baby to bed, Terri would be verbally combative and offended.

"It was common" for Kaine to "find the baby up and awake at 1am while Terri was asleep from alcohol".

These are Kaine's own words, firsthand, in a sworn deposition.

While Terri was passed out from 7/8pm, and the baby was awake playing up until past midnight until 1am, Kaine does not say where he was, or what he was doing, or why he didn't take care of his baby as he should have, and put her to bed. He doesn't say what he did or what happened the other times, when Terri was passed out, the baby was up and awake and playing at 12/1am, and he didn't try to put the baby to bed.

He speaks as if it was Terri's job to take care of the baby, and he was just an occasional "helper" or "intervener". He doesn't explain why he felt this exemption from his parental responsibilities to ensure the baby was supervised and safe, got to bed at an appropriate time, on a regular basis, and got adequate sleep.


6. It was common for Respondent to be visibly impaired from alcohol, i.e., slurring speech, staggering gait, etc. several nights a week. Often, Respondent would pass out on the couch around 7:00 or 8:00p.m. after drinking heavily and would wake up on and off for the rest of the night. Sometimes K would be up with Respondent rather than on a schedule. Respondent spent most nights sleeping on the living room couch with K. Respondent would typically be passed out from heavily drinking. K would be up past midnight playing and/or watching tv until I tried to intervene. Sometimes if I tried to help by putting K to bed, Respondent would become verbally combative and seem offended.

7. It was common to find K up and awake at 1:00 a.m. while Respondent was asleep from alcohol.

Kaine's deposition PDF pages 4 and 5, items 6 and 7:
http://www.kptv.com/download/2010/1026/25509272.pdf

snipped

While Terri was passed out from 7/8pm, and the baby was awake playing up until past midnight until 1am, Kaine does not say where he was, or what he was doing, or why he didn't take care of his baby as he should have, and put her to bed. He doesn't say what he did or what happened the other times, when Terri was passed out, the baby was up and awake and playing at 12/1am, and he didn't try to put the baby to bed.

I agree he doesn't say he did nothing either. He just doesn't say. I guess we must wait for a court hearing to determine if he in fact acted in a way we might consider to be responsible.

snipped

He speaks as if it was Terri's job to take care of the baby, and he was just an occasional "helper" or "intervener". He doesn't explain why he felt this exemption from his parental responsibilities to ensure the baby was supervised and safe, got to bed at an appropriate time, on a regular basis, and got adequate sleep.

I disagree totally with the first sentence. Kaine was working and caring for the children of an alcoholic Terri. It is not easy to live with an alcoholic you are forced to constantly walk on eggshells always trying to maintain harmony for the sake of the children. I believe Kaine was doing his best working to provide for his family, while at the same time having to care for an alleged drunken wife, and not to do anything which would cause her to become "verbally combative" in front of the children.

In Red.

Again I agree. He doesn't explain why he felt the exemption because he wasn't exempting himself from those duties IMO. Absence of a statement about what he did, is not an indication that he did nothing IMO.

Kaine Horman is the victim of a missing child. Even if he had not in the past done everything according to our perfect "parenting" book, he certainly is trying to protect his baby. It is more than I can say for Terri Horman who hasn't said a word, not even to claim innocence.

 

[Trt]

Bean,

I am coupling Kaine's assertion that Terri was on PPD meds initially AND his affadavit to conclude that Kaine may not have initially known that Terri's stupors were alcohol induced. I think that the information received of late, coupled with his hindsight evaluation of the home situation has led to this realization that Terri was passing out and stumbling from alchohol and not from meds as he originally thought.


I understand your concern for the baby, but the baby doesn't seem to have come to any physical harm, regardless of her mother's alchoholism. So perhaps Kaine was doing a better job at protecting her than we think, and these hindsight revelations are just ways to show that no, she wasn't the great mother that she claimed and neither was she the primary caregiver that her attorneys have painted her out to be.

Cluciano, both Kaine and Desiree have said that they knew Terri had "problems", but never did they think that her problems would lead her to disappear a child. Is Desiree just as culpable as you believe that Kaine is for not "protecting" the children in the Horman home (at the very least, her own)?

The person that put out the initial image of the well-functioning, blended family was Terri's mom. It wasn't until Kaine and Desiree started speaking out (and the media started doing some digging) that we found out that it wasn't as perfect as was originally portrayed. Desiree knew, just like everyone else, that Terri was charged with DUI while her son was in the car in 2005. I'm just saying that knowing these types of things and making the leap to remove a child before something like this happens aren't really synonymous.

IN NO WAY, do I blame either Kaine or Desiree for Terri's issues or for what happened to Kyron. Just to clarify.

JMO

 

[eyes4crime]

Posting for reference.

6. It was common for Respondent to be visibly impaired from alcohol, i.e., slurring speech, staggering gait, etc. several nights a week. Often, Respondent would pass out on the couch around 7:00 or 8:00p.m. after drinking heavily and would wake up on and off for the rest of the night. Sometimes K would be up with Respondent rather than on a schedule. Respondent spent most nights sleeping on the living room couch with K. Respondent would typically be passed out from heavily drinking. K would be up past midnight playing and/or watching tv until I tried to intervene. Sometimes if I tried to help by putting K to bed, Respondent would become verbally combative and seem offended.

7. It was common to find K up and awake at 1:00 a.m. while Respondent was asleep from alcohol.

Kaine's deposition PDF pages 4 and 5, items 6 and 7:
http://www.kptv.com/download/2010/1026/25509272.pdf

BBM
What was taking place in this household is extremely sad, dangerous, and ladened with apathy! Terri had three beautiful children in her care, did anyone try to get her help? How about ultimatums forcing her to seek help? Or was her disease overlooked because she was surrounded by enablers, people in denial, fearful, too busy, uncaring or too removed to seek options? moo

I know there are plenty of people who think that addictions are character flaws and see them as weakness, poor character, and intentional. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I happen to agree with medical science/research that it is a disease of the brain and in no way represents a flawed human being. moo mho
For me, and me alone, I see addictions as a disease, a medical disease that, as of yet, has no real treatment (AA is the only tx I know of), much less a cure. Here are a few tidbits of info regarding alcoholism:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/alcoholism.html

For most adults, moderate alcohol use is not harmful. However, nearly 17.6 million adults in the United States are alcoholics or have alcohol problems. Alcoholism is a disease with four main...*snip*

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CXH/is_2_23/ai_59246569/

On any given day, more than 700,000 people in the United States receive alcoholism treatment in either inpatient or outpatient settings. For many of those patients, detoxification--with or without pharmacotherapy--is the first step of treatment. *snip*

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/alcoholic-moms-resource-guide-info/story?id=10501667

From dumping their stash of empty liquor bottles to hiding morning glasses of wine in coffee mugs, four mothers revealed to "20/20" the intimate and destructive details of their addiction to alcohol. *snip*


The above information isn't to excuse Terri in any way, it's to point out how devastating and prevalent the disease of alcoholism is.

So Terri is an alcoholic. She joins another 17 million people in the United States with the same addiction. Millions more if you add in addictions to Vicodin, Oxycontin, and other opiates, all of which are legal and very available to the addict. Addiction to heroin is not much different except it's illegal.

"On any given day over 700,000 people are treated for alcoholism - the first step is usually to detox either as an inpatient or outpatient."

Terri had in her care, 3 beautiful children, so I'm wondering why her disease went unnoticed, unattended, and or undiagnosed? Was everyone in denial? Why no family intervention? Certainly there was insurance for outpatient/inpatient treatment. Did anyone who cared about Terri consult an addiction specialist to seek options for the family? Anyone around to suggest AA meetings? Anyone point out the devastating effects her drinking had on the children/family? Now I'm wondering if Terri turned to sexual exploitation of herself when drunk, such as in the sexting? moo mho

Terri was basically destroying herself before everyone's eyes - where were her parents, friends, her husband? Why did this woman go without help for so long and than conveniently cast to the media as a fistful of garbage who wistfully plodded through life without a care in the world? All just my opinions and that kind of stuff moo mho

 

[Billylee]

Difference is, when Terri says something that Kaine deems not to be accurate, HE responds. Its what you do in a situation where your reputation is being incorrectly sullied by someone. You present evidence and proof to fight the false accusations. JMO

Terri said something? I must have missed it. I haven't heard her say anything about Kaine that Kaine would need to correct for inaccuracies. I haven't heard Terri say a word. What are you referring to to here? Thanks.

 

[cluciano63]

No I do blame anyone, and least of all Desiree-I think she was deceived as to what was truly gonig on in Kyron's primary home. Kaine would not have wanted to lose custody and thought he could handle the issues, apparently.

 

[Skully]

Well this revelation really turns things upside down. Being quite familiar with this situation Kyron was odd man out. TH would have had a the least of patience with him than with her own kids, and she wasn't showing much regard for them if this is true. I can tell you first hand, coming from a home with a mum that drank just as much. I see this probably through different eyes than a lot her are going to see through. Poor Kyron, shame on all the parents these kids deserve better.

 

[SurfieTX]

Another possible scenario is that Kaine was planning to divorce her and she knew it. She could have been on the wagon after her initial DUI charge, but with the stress of fighting and impending divorce, she fell off again. Certainly, she wasn't drinking when she was pregnant (one would hope anyway!), and probably for some time after that if she breast fed.

I just get the feeling that their marriage was horribly on the rocks prior to June 4, 2010, and that idea is supported by the reported murder-for-hire scheme. I also have a feeling that things were really "coming to a head" at the beginning of June and again my assumption is that is when her drinking escalated. I have my doubts that she was a fall-down, passed-out drunk from the minute she delivered K.

 

[ami]

Terri "would pass out" "around 7 or 8pm".

"Typically", Terri would "be passed out". The baby "would be up past midnight playing or watching tv". "Sometimes", "if" Kaine tried to put the baby to bed, Terri would be verbally combative and offended.

"It was common" for Kaine to "find the baby up and awake at 1am while Terri was asleep from alcohol".

These are Kaine's own words, firsthand, in a sworn deposition.

While Terri was passed out from 7/8pm, and the baby was awake playing up until past midnight until 1am, Kaine does not say where he was, or what he was doing, or why he didn't take care of his baby as he should have, and put her to bed. He doesn't say what he did or what happened the other times, when Terri was passed out, the baby was up and awake and playing at 12/1am, and he didn't try to put the baby to bed.

He speaks as if it was Terri's job to take care of the baby, and he was just an occasional "helper" or "intervener". He doesn't explain why he felt this exemption from his parental responsibilities to ensure the baby was supervised and safe, got to bed at an appropriate time, on a regular basis, and got adequate sleep.


6. It was common for Respondent to be visibly impaired from alcohol, i.e., slurring speech, staggering gait, etc. several nights a week. Often, Respondent would pass out on the couch around 7:00 or 8:00p.m. after drinking heavily and would wake up on and off for the rest of the night. Sometimes K would be up with Respondent rather than on a schedule. Respondent spent most nights sleeping on the living room couch with K. Respondent would typically be passed out from heavily drinking. K would be up past midnight playing and/or watching tv until I tried to intervene. Sometimes if I tried to help by putting K to bed, Respondent would become verbally combative and seem offended.

7. It was common to find K up and awake at 1:00 a.m. while Respondent was asleep from alcohol.

Kaine's deposition PDF pages 4 and 5, items 6 and 7:
http://www.kptv.com/download/2010/1026/25509272.pdf

What's wrong with him thinking it was Terri's job to take care of the baby? And Kaine being the "helper"? He said clearly that they shared parenting - which doesn't mean both of them did every parenting job together at the same time. Shared parenting to me means division of labor. One person has one set of expectations, the other person has a different set of "jobs".

Kaine worked full time. I'm not surprised nor censorious that he did not simultaneously perform all of the jobs of the primary breadwinner while working full time, and all the jobs of a single parent, and all the jobs of a spouse and alcohol detector/traffic cop for his wife.

He doesn't explain why he felt this exemption from his parental responsibilities to ensure the baby was supervised and safe, got to bed at an appropriate time, on a regular basis, and got adequate sleep.

He never wrote he was "exempt" - that's your emotional interpretation of words that Kaine never wrote. And since he clearly wrote that a) he intervened and tried to ensure that the baby was in bed, and b) now that he is her sole parental caregiver, she IS on a schedule, and happier for it - he's showing himself to be aware of the problem and taking steps to fix it. Which in my interpretation, is the exact opposite of Kaine thinking he is "exempt" from the responsibility.

 

[redkatrampant]

IMO, if she was smart and.or had good counsel she would have entered Treatment AS SOON AS this came to light. It would have weighed in her favor, I do believe.

Is KH to blame for enabling her? Who knows. We don't know the dynamics. For all we know he was drinking too. It is hard to say without clear facts from both sides.
However, I will add this, it has been my experience that an addict if any kind will do what they can to keep the status quo. He may have truly loved her and believed her when she swore she would stop "tomorrow". But we all know when that day comes.


Again. MY mind's wanderings only.

 

[ami]

Sometimes if I tried to help by putting K to bed, Respondent would become verbally combative and seem offended.

Also, this quote doesn't indicate if Kaine meant 'sometimes if I tried to help by putting K to bed at 830pm before she fell asleep on the couch with her drunk Mom, the Mom fought with me about it'

... or if he meant....

'sometimes if I woke up at 1am to find K playing in front of the TV and mom passed out drunk, and tried to put K in her bed, her Mom would wake up and fight with me about it'.

 

[ami]

BBM
What was taking place in this household is extremely sad, dangerous, and ladened with apathy! Terri had three beautiful children in her care, did anyone try to get her help? How about ultimatums forcing her to seek help? Or was her disease overlooked because she was surrounded by enablers, people in denial, fearful, too busy, uncaring or too removed to seek options? moo

I know there are plenty of people who think that addictions are character flaws and see them as weakness, poor character, and intentional. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I happen to agree with medical science/research that it is a disease of the brain and in no way represents a flawed human being. moo mho
For me, and me alone, I see addictions as a disease, a medical disease that, as of yet, has no real treatment (AA is the only tx I know of), much less a cure. Here are a few tidbits of info regarding alcoholism:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/alcoholism.html

For most adults, moderate alcohol use is not harmful. However, nearly 17.6 million adults in the United States are alcoholics or have alcohol problems. Alcoholism is a disease with four main...*snip*

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CXH/is_2_23/ai_59246569/

On any given day, more than 700,000 people in the United States receive alcoholism treatment in either inpatient or outpatient settings. For many of those patients, detoxification--with or without pharmacotherapy--is the first step of treatment. *snip*

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/alcoholic-moms-resource-guide-info/story?id=10501667

From dumping their stash of empty liquor bottles to hiding morning glasses of wine in coffee mugs, four mothers revealed to "20/20" the intimate and destructive details of their addiction to alcohol. *snip*


The above information isn't to excuse Terri in any way, it's to point out how devastating and prevalent the disease of alcoholism is.

So Terri is an alcoholic. She joins another 17 million people in the United States with the same addiction. Millions more if you add in addictions to Vicodin, Oxycontin, and other opiates, all of which are legal and very available to the addict. Addiction to heroin is not much different except it's illegal.

"On any given day over 700,000 people are treated for alcoholism - the first step is usually to detox either as an inpatient or outpatient."

Terri had in her care, 3 beautiful children, so I'm wondering why her disease went unnoticed, unattended, and or undiagnosed? Was everyone in denial? Why no family intervention? Certainly there was insurance for outpatient/inpatient treatment. Did anyone who cared about Terri consult an addiction specialist to seek options for the family? Anyone around to suggest AA meetings? Anyone point out the devastating effects her drinking had on the children/family? Now I'm wondering if Terri turned to sexual exploitation of herself when drunk, such as in the sexting? moo mho

Terri was basically destroying herself before everyone's eyes - where were her parents, friends, her husband? Why did this woman go without help for so long and than conveniently cast to the media as a fistful of garbage who wistfully plodded through life without a care in the world? All just my opinions and that kind of stuff moo mho

Well, we've read that after drunk driving with her son in the car, she was made to attend victim impact statements (paraphrased). And Kaine has stated he thought things were getting better. That they'd recently talked and he though they were headed down a better path. I don't know if that was in reference to her depression or her addiction or just their marital problems in general.

 

[Billylee]

With all this going on, I really wonder why Kaine Horman didn't think this was a problem back when he talked with Kate Snow on Dateline.

July 26: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38420266/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports

KATE SNOW: There had been no indication in your marriage –

KAINE HORMAN: No.

KATE SNOW: – that things were that bad or that she was upset with you?

KAINE HORMAN: No.

DATELINE: Kaine has said there were more ups and downs in his marriage to Terri after the birth of their daughter 20 months ago. Still, Kaine says he never saw something like this coming.

KAINE HORMAN: Nothing so far one way or the other that would have even put that on my radar screen as something to worry about.

Nothing to worry about? And that's not the only time he's said there were no major problems. If what he's said about Terri boozing it up and passing out every evening on the couch and not taking proper care of the kids, then I'd say there were some HUGE problems in that marriage, and that Terri was obviously under some sort of emotional stress, way more than a few ups and downs. He addresses it again here:

July 16 http://www.kgw.com/news/Kaine-Horman-Terri-was-a-good-person-when-we-first-met-98620944.html

"Terri was a good person when we first met and for several years (I’d say up until 2008). She was always about children (teaching) and helping them grow and develop. Her attitude was always about those types of things first, her own self not even being a priority close to that. I believe that this is the Terri that everyone else saw and got to know as I did."

"There were some signs of emotional distress here and there over the past year and a half but not enough of that directed at any one person to conclude she would be capable of anything even remotely close to events of the severity we have all seen."

Whatever was going on, he apparently didn't think it was important enough to mention in the above interviews, as he said there was nothing going on to make him worry. He doesn't even make mention of the 2005 DUI Terri received, in fact he says during that period, before 2008, everything was hunky-dory with Terri and she was all about the children. IDK, but the guy must have been wearing blinders if what he's saying in the depo is true.

I think I tend to agree with Desquire, it's a divorce, and it's going to be nasty, I think we will perhaps see things exaggerated and blown out of scale from both sides. I feel sorry for the Judge trying to make heads or tails out of all these statements. JMO and all that jazz.

 

[SurfieTX]

I get the feeling Kaine did not want all of this dirty laundry aired in public (Look at his Intel email). And, he could have been advised by LE to keep certain things on the "down-low" for whatever reason - keep Terri comfortable (or drunk?) in the chance that she might slip up.

 

[Trt]

Once again, drinking and emotional distress is not enough to make one believe that a person will harm a child. Desiree said the same thing and they BOTH knew about the DUI when they spoke with Ms. Snow. JMO

 

[ami]

With all this going on, I really wonder why Kaine Horman didn't think this was a problem back when he talked with Kate Snow on Dateline.

July 26: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38420266/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports

KATE SNOW: There had been no indication in your marriage –

KAINE HORMAN: No.

KATE SNOW: – that things were that bad or that she was upset with you?

KAINE HORMAN: No.

DATELINE: Kaine has said there were more ups and downs in his marriage to Terri after the birth of their daughter 20 months ago. Still, Kaine says he never saw something like this coming.

KAINE HORMAN: Nothing so far one way or the other that would have even put that on my radar screen as something to worry about.

snipped for space...

Kaine didn't think the drinking and lack of schedule were warning signs that his child would be abducted or killed, or for his wife to hire someone to murder him. I wouldn't have either, frankly.

I don't know. I don't think he was a stellar husband, probably very preoccupied and perhaps quite out of touch, emotionally. However all his characterizations of his marriage say that he used to be happy, thought Terri was happy and a good mom, blips in the good parenting/happiness during her body building days, her DUI and after Baby K was born, but nothing that pointed towards Terri being a murderer.

I don't know - I don't see any signs that Terri was a potential murderer either, frankly. A poor mother at times for certain, but not a deliberately evil and physically abusive one. Maybe sometimes there are simply no signs.

 

[Trt]

Terri said something? I must have missed it. I haven't heard her say anything about Kaine that Kaine would need to correct for inaccuracies. I haven't heard Terri say a word. What are you referring to to here? Thanks.

Through her lawyers. Most recent example was her assertion that it was an "undisputed fact" that she was the primary caregiver of baby K. Not accurate, according to Kaine and he and Rackner wasted no time making sure that record was made clear. Meanwhile, Terri chooses to allow the civil court judge (the one responsible for deciding whether or not she will get to see her chid) to believe that she attempted a Murder for Hire plot against Kaine and that she is involved in the disappearance of her stepson(both items uncontested facts as it relates to the Restraining Order).

JMO

 

[Billylee]

Once again, drinking and emotional distress is not enough to make one believe that a person will harm a child. Desiree said the same thing and they BOTH knew about the DUI when they spoke with Ms. Snow. JMO

What? I'm not sure I follow. The drinking is one of the reason's Kaine is using in his depo to say that TH needs a psych eval, before she can receive a supervised visit with her child, is it not?

 

[DreamyEye]

As mentioned by many, alchoholism is no reason to assume that a person will disappear a child. Its not even a good enough reason to remove a child from a home most times. Look at J...Terri was driving in the car with him, charged with endangering him and still he lived with her until she put him out. Hindsight is 20/20 and there is no real way to know when a parent is unstable enough to do the unthinkable. JMO

I think Kaine had just started looking at TH's behavior after the dui, and it might have been like he was waking up. Looking around at the conditions in his home, seeing things he hadn't noticed before, scratching his head and thinking 'when did this happen? How long has this been going on?' I think he was probably befuddled and didn't know what to do.

A friend of mine used to raise doxies. They were pretty well behaved dogs, clean, obedient. But they do like to snoop, like most hounds. Normally the doxies weren't allowed in any of the bedrooms. One time my friend cleaned her house and prepared to entertain the family of her husband's boss. When the guests arrived, she gave them a tour of the home. Now this home was normally magazine-beautiful--clean, neat, beautifully decorated.

But when my friend opened the door to the master bedroom, half a dozen doxies rushed in and immediately sniffed their way under the bed. The guests saw the room and started to file out, so my friend shagged the dogs out from under the bed ... and here came 6 doxies out from under the bed, wearing "dust bunnies," and one of them happily carrying a box of "marital aids." Excited as can be, the doxies thronged around the guests, shaking to send the dust flying all over the visitors, and prancing around to show off their wonderful find from under the bed.

I've been thinking about this story as I read about Kaine's plight in the weeks or months leading up to his son's disappearance. I'm sure he feels bad for not knowing the dust bunnies were there for so long--and for not knowing how to get rid of them once they came to light.

When we are all so busy working, worrying about bills, trying to do things like pay taxes and renew licenses on time and make sure we've got car insurance--we're not looking for dust bunnies. I think most of us would be shocked--a little or a lot--if we knew about everything that's going on in our homes.

 

[Billylee]

Through her lawyers. Most recent example was her assertion that it was an "undisputed fact" that she was the primary caregiver of baby K. Not accurate, according to Kaine and he and Rackner wasted no time making sure that record was made clear. Meanwhile, Terri chooses to allow the civil court judge (the one responsible for deciding whether or not she will get to see her chid) to believe that she attempted a Murder for Hire plot against Kaine and that she is involved in the disappearance of her stepson(both items uncontested facts as it relates to the Restraining Order).

JMO

I'm sorry, but not saying anything, is not saying something. JMHO And, I think it will be proven in court that TH was indeed the primary care giver, be that good or bad, I believe we will all see that is a fact. We will just have to wait.