2010.11.18 - Hearing on Clarification of DNA Testing

  • #81
Remain calm. Judge Perry has got this! This may be some of the best money spent on this case. For the same reasons Mr. Ashton set out he was uncomfortable with a lab that did not have these specific qualifying bona findes, we must have the defense have the items with a lab that does. The judge , who has tried his share of murder cases, both as a ADA and as a Judge, surely knows the importance of this accrediation. Judge Perry is making it virtually impossible for this case to be overturned on appeal. The two thousand is nothing in comparison to the cost of trying this case a second time. He has his eye on that at all times. Very few pieces of the puzzle compare in importance to the items the baby was found with and the car. When we study this Judge we note that he brings with him to his hearings piles of appeals from the Supreme Court to quote from in his rulings. It seems to me he sits down with his pad and plays the role of the judge the appeal is in front of and imagines what and how, o n what issues would his ruling be vulnerable. Then he looks up examples, then decides on his ruling. This is what I assume they all do.
If money is to be skimped...it will be on lesser matters, I assure you. The judge is going to be abundantly fair, within the guidelines, but more generous leaning on these imperative pieces of evidence than , hmmmm, let's say the fishing expedition regarding the TES volunteers. Indeed he had already ruled that they could have the DNA testing done, so it truly was just a formality today that the amount was approved. In relative terms when you view it through the eyes of the judge this was not even a close call. Think of it this way,
if the PI s (one or more of whom have questionable tactics), are charging $40.00 per hour, they could use up two thousand in a very short time period. I would venture a guess that DNA work for a couple of weeks would require someone far more educated, indeed likely a staff of folks will work on this, rather than the one PI charging for his time, the folks at the lab are clearly more credentialed and use far more expensive equipment than Mort's shaky, poor quality video camera.
Perhaps Joypath can chime in, but imo the two thousand indeed sounded reasonable to me. The judge certainly thought so. If I were a Florida taxpayer, I'd much sooner want to pay 2K for the DNA on the clothes the baby had on and the bag she was found in, then to have these PI s making their troublesome phone calls.
So many other things are peripheral, the things with the remains are the nuts and bolts. Nothing could matter more than the defense having the opportunity to have them examined.

He knows what he is doing.

Remain calm.
Judge Perry has got this. I'd bet my life on it.

I am far, far more upset about the thousands and thousands of dollars the local, state even national law enforcement agencies had to spend and deplete resources and man hours on, all the while there were folks who knew that baby's body was just down the street. This matter is just perfunctory, it has to get done, it has to be done beyond reproach and the judge is making damn sure it will be. I take it back, never mind just remaing calm, be happy.

The big dawg is guarding the house and nobody is getting by him! Feel safe. Exhale.
Eleven minutes flat! Love, love , love this judge!!!

Thanks Nums for the hearing!

WESH Video Report:

Judge Perry's Approves Defense Request:
http://www.wesh.com/video/25842542/detail.html
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  • #82
Here's a list of the ASCLD/LAB accredited laboratories. Looks like the ones in FLA are all government labs (although I'm not 100% sure), in which case the defense would indeed need to go out of state.

http://www.ascld-lab.org/accreditedlabs.html#fl
 
  • #83
Was this hearing televised? I couldn't find it.

I do not think the defense should be allowed to have the evidence tested out of state. That seems absurd to me, but I trust Judge Perry. Let them test and test and retest. Nothing is going to save our little murderess. I pray for whoever may be victimized by the defense over this latest DNA testing. This case is about 31 days!!

I thought the testing requested was for low copy/touch DNA. Surely that's the reason they have to go out of State.

I'd have thought if there was a Florida Lab that was prepared to do the work, Jeff Ashton would have raised an objection.

Judge Perry is imo trying hard to strike the balance of keeping costs down whilst balancing her 6th amendment rights.

Best this case gets tried just the once. :)
 
  • #84
Here's a list of the ASCLD/LAB accredited laboratories. Looks like the ones in FLA are all government labs (although I'm not 100% sure), in which case the defense would indeed need to go out of state.

http://www.ascld-lab.org/accreditedlabs.html#fl

Thank you! I was just about to try to look this up! You are so valuable here!! We sure appreciate your help.
 
  • #85
Raw video of a phone conversation? :waitasec:

Perhaps I'm missing something. So we'll see HHJP talking on a phone. How fascinating...........

that was too funny...i needed that today.

:crazy:

Well... not to name names :innocent:, but there are certain persons here on WS who would pay good money to watch HHJP read the phone book.

:blushing:
 
  • #86
  • #87
Well... not to name names :innocent:, but there are certain persons here on WS who would pay good money to watch HHJP read the phone book.

:blushing:

Hi Y not,

Any law student, author or producer who works on true crimes would love to just sit in his chambers or courtroom and listen and watch him work for an afternoon. The same goes for the Assistant District Attorneys on this case. Their dedication is something to aspire to, no matter what field you work in. Who I feel sorry for is the interns that work for Baez, and those kids that sit in his class. It very well may be more instructive to watch this Judge read things than to be a student of someone who is wrong on the facts, wrong on the law, ninety nine percent of the time. In the words of Mark Nejame, "I am being overly generous in my characterization".

If I were a law student in Orlando Florida, I would pay to intern with him. I have, thankfully only twice, worked for people that I did not like trust or respect and I have quit immediately as soon as that was apparent to me. If I can't learn something from someone, they are a waste of my time. It would be even worse if not only could I learn nothing from the person, but if they were teaching me wrong, misguided, borderline unethical things. I think Jose could learn from watching the Judge read, seriously. To be fair, I think Mason could learn too. Lord knows he sure hasn't read any discovery yet. Reading and understanding the case law is something the prosecutors and the judge do, but apparently reading is not the defense's specialty. Some folks you could work with for a year, and it would be just a year's worth of first days. Others you can work with for one day and learn so very much and be inspired by. I think I know what the cause of the defense not reading their file is, hubris. I am not plagued by that, so I learn a lot from him.
 
  • #88
Baez made a mention that the ones in Florida are Crime Labs (the Defense won't use Crime Labs)

Isn't it also that they are State or government agencies?
 
  • #89
I'm going to be the FIRST to admit that I'm very biased here but ....... I am absolutely fed up with the attitude that just because the laboratory is associated, nay, funded under the law enforcement budget does NOT mean that the testing of any and all exemplars submitted are evaluated under the guise of "get 'em at all COSTS to close cases, screw justice!".

The point of the ASCLD accreditation is to have the work performed by an agency who lives under a set of rules and regulations, abides by the rules, holds the accreditation in high regard and performs with a level of ethics and pride.


I totally agree that the option to have the items tested at a private ASCLD laboratory was the way to go for this or ANY case when the defense team wants to incur the expense. AND the state of Florida is getting a great bargain, as it is retail pricing for DNA paternity testing runs in the 600-800 range and that type of testing is "nuts & bolts" DNA, not "touch"!
 
  • #90
Yup. "Drillin' fer awl when thar's bin no induhkashun thet awl iz prezent."

-----------------------------
Aw shucks thank ye::sleuth:
 
  • #91
pg 188...The Real World of a Forensic Scientist by Henry Lee
prometheusbooks.com

"As the offender / arrestee databases increase in size, new evidence based issues arise. For example, should familial searches be allowed? In some cases, a search of the offender database does not result in an exact match, but the presence of an individual with many matching alleles may indicate a close relative of the offender likely deposited the unknown sample. Familial leads could provice an important investigative tool for law enforcement. Detractors have questioned the value of this practice in light of the possible violations of the constitutional rights of family members."


So........I think it is clear why the defense wants DNA
testing to be by an independant lab that does not automatically link to CODIS and SDIS / NDIS (State DNA Index and National DNA Index).
 
  • #92
pg 188...The Real World of a Forensic Scientist by Henry Lee
prometheusbooks.com

"As the offender / arrestee databases increase in size, new evidence based issues arise. For example, should familial searches be allowed? In some cases, a search of the offender database does not result in an exact match, but the presence of an individual with many matching alleles may indicate a close relative of the offender likely deposited the unknown sample. Familial leads could provice an important investigative tool for law enforcement. Detractors have questioned the value of this practice in light of the possible violations of the constitutional rights of family members."


So........I think it is clear why the defense wants DNA
testing to be by an independant lab that does not automatically link to CODIS and SDIS / NDIS (State DNA Index and National DNA Index
).




Very very Interesting ~
 
  • #93
pg 188...The Real World of a Forensic Scientist by Henry Lee
prometheusbooks.com

"As the offender / arrestee databases increase in size, new evidence based issues arise. For example, should familial searches be allowed? In some cases, a search of the offender database does not result in an exact match, but the presence of an individual with many matching alleles may indicate a close relative of the offender likely deposited the unknown sample. Familial leads could provice an important investigative tool for law enforcement. Detractors have questioned the value of this practice in light of the possible violations of the constitutional rights of family members."


So........I think it is clear why the defense wants DNA
testing to be by an independant lab that does not automatically link to CODIS and SDIS / NDIS (State DNA Index and National DNA Index).

Whoa...is this actual proof that they ARE going to blame this on another family member? I mean I knew they were throwing mom and pop under the bus already, maybe Lee too, but wow. They're going THIS far? At least that's how I interpreted what Dr. Henry Lee said...
 
  • #94
Not sure I understand regarding family because members of the family's DNA would be expected to be found in the car or on the victum. jmo
 
  • #95
Dr. Lee's statement on familial DNA is not about this case, nor is that type of DNA testing required for this case. It is the "new" way of finding offenders and is very controversial right now. Just google it, every State is debating it.

LambChop, you are right. All of the A family DNA would be present on Caylee, her clothes or belongings, and in the car.

ETA: Just one of many links about the debates:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7641971
 
  • #96
Dr. Lee's statement on familial DNA is not about this case, nor is that type of DNA testing required for this case. It is the "new" way of finding offenders and is very controversial right now. Just google it, every State is debating it.

LambChop, you are right. All of the A family DNA would be present on Caylee, her clothes or belongings, and in the car.

I could see the defense team try to use this in a 'backwards sort of way' and say something along the lines that just because Casey's DNA was found w/Caylee's remains (if it is found), it doesn't make her guilty of anything since it would be expected to be there. It would be a bonus for the defense if other close family member's DNA (like George, Cindy, or Lee) was found there, too.
 
  • #97
Also, if it's going to the international data base of DNA, and searching all allele matches, perhaps Caylee's bio dad would be revealed?
 
  • #98
Also, if it's going to the international data base of DNA, and searching all allele matches, perhaps Caylee's bio dad would be revealed?

I believe LE already knows who Caylee's dad is. I'm sure Casey would have told her own defense who the dad is, but who knows. But that would be interesting if what you said was true.
 
  • #99
I believe LE already knows who Caylee's dad is. I'm sure Casey would have told her own defense who the dad is, but who knows. But that would be interesting if what you said was true.

I'm not convinced ICA knows who the bio dad is. I know she would rather be with a man, or at least any man who wasn't "on" to her than be at home with her parents. That kind of silence from her doesn't make sense. ICA loved to taunt her parents, but to give up a man and a life to do it - nah!
 
  • #100
pg 188...The Real World of a Forensic Scientist by Henry Lee
prometheusbooks.com

"As the offender / arrestee databases increase in size, new evidence based issues arise. For example, should familial searches be allowed? In some cases, a search of the offender database does not result in an exact match, but the presence of an individual with many matching alleles may indicate a close relative of the offender likely deposited the unknown sample. Familial leads could provice an important investigative tool for law enforcement. Detractors have questioned the value of this practice in light of the possible violations of the constitutional rights of family members."


So........I think it is clear why the defense wants DNA
testing to be by an independant lab that does not automatically link to CODIS and SDIS / NDIS (State DNA Index and National DNA Index).
Ok...I thought I was understanding all this DNA stuff, but this confuses me. Wouldn't they then want the larger database?
 

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