2012.02.07 - 911 Tapes Released

[LinasK]

The closest location would probably have been a latitude & longitude with a radius. The radius can narrow it down quite close or it can be miles. I am not sure why different radius' are obtained.

Hubby tells me they may be able to triangulate from more than one tower...

 

[Yoda]

I believe the responsibilities of a 911 operator are great. Trying to gather information from a person who is most likely panicked, in shock, or in danger themselves requires a great deal of skill. They must get the caller to focus on giving them information that is critical to what type of response will be required. Just like being a police officer, firefighter, suicide counselor, this job is not for everyone. IMHO I do not believe the dispatcher who spoke with the case worker is a good fit for this job. I do not want to have to listen to the audio again but I believe the caseworker told him at least three times all of the following- she was there to supervise a visitation, Josh Powell shut the door on her, and she was very concerned. He still seemed unable to understand why she was there, if she lived there and who she was supervising. Considering what had just happened to this caseworker she was consistently able to restate the situation and keep a level head, all while hearing a child crying from inside and smelling gasoline. This is the type of person I would want in a crisis situation. The dispatcher did not seem to be able to focus on what she was telling him. In crisis situations every second counts. I am not implying that anyone else caseworker/dispatcher/judge/lawmakers had a role in the outcome, Josh alone is responsible. But every part of the children's safety net needs to be checked, repaired if needed and strengthened if possible.

 

[LinasK]

I'm in agreement with Paige on that the 911 dispatcher may be at fault if he delayed dispatch by 7 or 8 minutes, assuming it wasn't life-threatening priority. That time was valuable and could possibly have saved the boys' lives. To not do so, and just have the "oh well, it was unpreventable" attitude, is unconscionable...JMO

 

[ami]

So then we should all ask "Why have supervised visits at all ?" Especially when outside vendors don't require MUCH IF ANY training on how to deal with an emergency situation involving the children they are there to supervise. What's the point? Obviously, in this particular case, there should have been NO visits but g-d forbid we put the safety of innocent kids before the rights of psychotic parents.

Supervised visits in the parent's home aren't meant for keeping kids safe from psychotic, murderous or suicidal parents. So "the point" is that the visits are time for the child to interact naturally with the parent while the case worker observes and takes notes. It has a place in custody and visitation issues.

In this case, the case worker would've had to have physically stood between the two children and a homicidal, suicidal, hatchet-wielding psychopath, waiting for his attack. What kind of training would you suggest for social workers entering that type of visitation?

In any case, I think others have made the point very well - the visitation itself was the mistake, and the only people who could have stopped it were far above the case worker. She was defenseless and I doubt even Green Beret training would have altered the end point.

 

[KMouse]

Hubby tells me they may be able to triangulate from more than one tower...

Our 911 system uses the latitude & longitude but if the radius is large then it is useless.

 

[Paige SC]

What difference will it make?

I mean really.

It will not help those boys and I doubt our conversation here will help change the procedures.

I'm sure it will all be looked at by the proper authorities and handled accordingly.

JMO

Here, in this thread, it feels like the sw and the dispatcher are being picked apart. I just don't feel it's the right place or time considering the situation.

But that's just my opinion.

I think it's absolutely the right time to question EVERYTHING that happened that day. This isn't the grief and condolences forum. We are all upset. I like to channel my energy on what could be done BETTER to avoid something similar in the future. You may not feel that way but I don't get why some here seem to have a problem with wanting to know, discuss and understand the details of that fateful day? Makes ZERO sense to me.

 

[Isabelle]

King5.com has a news video with interview with case worker's husband. It is so sad. She evidently supervised many other visits between Josh and his sons and felt no fear around him. (when she made the 911 call, she knew something bad was gonna happen because he had never shut her out before on other visits). She is having a bad time with these events.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I'm in agreement with Paige on that the 911 dispatcher may be at fault if he delayed dispatch by 7 or 8 minutes, assuming it wasn't life-threatening priority. That time was valuable and could possibly have saved the boys' lives. To not do so, and just have the oh well, it was unpreventable attitude, is unconscionable...JMO

So you think if LE would have gotten there 7 or 8 minutes earlier it would have really made a difference?

He was chopping at their necks and lighting gas.

I agree the dispatcher could have handled things quicker but I do not think IN THIS CASE it would have made one bit of difference.

Those boys were going to die that day.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

King5.com has a news video with interview with case worker's husband. It is so sad. She evidently supervised many other visits between Josh and his sons and felt no fear around him. (when she made the 911 call, she knew something bad was gonna happen because he had never shut her out before on other visits). She is having a bad time with these events.

Well I hope she does not read this thread.

JMO

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I think it's absolutely the right time to question EVERYTHING that happened that day. This isn't the grief and condolences forum. We are all upset. I like to channel my energy on what could be done BETTER to avoid something similar in the future. You may not feel that way but I don't get why some here seem to have a problem with wanting to know, discuss and understand the details of that fateful day? Makes ZERO sense to me.

Monday morning quarterbacking rarely does any good.

The proper people will look over every detail of every taped call.

They are the ones who can make changes.

 

[Isabelle]

I disagree! While he did not seem as sympathetic as most want him to... he was doing was doing his job! 911 dispatchers have a very very tough job. They have to gather information. He had no way of knowting what was going to happen. He had to treat the call as it was. A woman calling concerned about children ...... From her first call, it seems like a domestic, or a family matter. I really wish people would quit with the blame. JP and JP alone was to blame.

Unless you know what 911 dispatchers go through or how they work, you should not be so quick to judge. :twocents:

Thanks, I know how 911 dispatchers (don't) work from my own experiences. What first call? She only made one call to 911, and it went on and on - what difference does it make what kind of car she drives or who she supervises. The dispatcher may not have been able to prevent what happened, but he sure could have used better judgement in handling the call. Three words, supervised, children and gasoline should have been all he needed to act immediately. Yes, JP did what he did, but that does not relieve others of their responsibilities where lives are concerned.

 

[Paige SC]

Monday morning quarterbacking rarely does any good.

The proper people will look over every detail of every taped call.

They are the ones who can make changes.

This forum is full of armchair generals ?? And I disagree that it rarely does any good - it's the very thing prompts change and improvement. The "proper" people were in charge and the system failed. It can be better. If you don't agree, so be it but don't dismiss those of us who want to discuss it. It's what the site is all about.

 

[Paige SC]

Thanks, I know how 911 dispatchers (don't) work from my own experiences. What first call? She only made one call to 911, and it went on and on - what difference does it make what kind of car she drives or who she supervises. The dispatcher may not have been able to prevent what happened, but he sure could have used better judgement in handling the call. Three words, supervised, children and gasoline should have been all he needed to act immediately. Yes, JP did what he did, but that does not relieve others of their responsibilities where lives are concerned.

I thought she made two calls? The 7 minute initial call and then another to report the house had exploded? I agree, the whole "supervising" portion of the call was exactly like "who's on first".

 

[Isabelle]

In my simple mind, I imagine all 911 systems are computerized by now. As the 911 operator takes the information, it is being entered into the system. I would think all it takes is the push of a button to send out a dispatch notice. It's not like the 911 operator has to call LE in the field and mane get a busy signal and have to keep calling back. Sorry, no I'm not really sorry, the 911 operator was negligent! He was just as bad as the 911 operator that handled the call from the little boy whose mother needed help and chose to admonish him for making prank calls, the mother was dead when help arrived!

 

[Yoda]

I think it's absolutely the right time to question EVERYTHING that happened that day. This isn't the grief and condolences forum. We are all upset. I like to channel my energy on what could be done BETTER to avoid something similar in the future. You may not feel that way but I don't get why some here seem to have a problem with wanting to know, discuss and understand the details of that fateful day? Makes ZERO sense to me.

My way of dealing with awful situations is to go into action. Helping, organizing things, taking control. But when I am physically not a part of the situation and can not take an active role I analyze. What happened, why did it happen, what can be done to make sure it doesn't happen again. Like a lot of posters on here that can't think about the technical aspects right now, I can't think about the emotional aspect-it is something I know I can't handle.
I hope all the posters on here realize we are all grieving.

 

[Softail]

Thanks, I know how 911 dispatchers (don't) work from my own experiences. What first call? She only made one call to 911, and it went on and on - what difference does it make what kind of car she drives or who she supervises. The dispatcher may not have been able to prevent what happened, but he sure could have used better judgement in handling the call. Three words, supervised, children and gasoline should have been all he needed to act immediately. Yes, JP did what he did, but that does not relieve others of their responsibilities where lives are concerned.

I still disagree. 911 Dispatchers are giving information to the police as they are getting it. Most people cannot type and chew gum at the same time. So while you sit in judgement of them, they are doing 3 or 4 things at the same time getting the info out to the proper people. They juggle ALOT!! Usually while they are talking you, they are disseminating the information to the people on the street! So again, until you sit their shoes.... I would not judge!

JP and JP ALONE is responible for this. Nobody else!

 

[Isabelle]

I thought she made two calls? The 7 minute initial call and then another to report the house had exploded? I agree, the whole "supervising" portion of the call was exactly like "who's on first".

Sorry, thought the poster meant two calls prior to the explosion. She may well have called after the explosion, I haven't seen that call though. Thanks.

I hope the 911 operator doesn't have a job by the end of the workday this Friday. He needs to work in a menial job that requires absolutely no critical thinking, maybe wally world stocking shelves.

 

[LinasK]

Our 911 system uses the latitude & longitude but if the radius is large then it is useless.

I was just going to respond, when the server crashed!
Here's what we found: In 2005, the FCC required that, for the purpose of locating cell phone callers in an emergency, when a cell phone user rang 911 it should automatically transmit information on the caller’s location to the PSAP (Public Safety Answering Point). Cell phone manufacturers responded to the new requirements (known as E911) by building phones with GPS receivers built-in that could provide location information, pinpointing a caller’s position to within 6 meters. When a caller dials 911, the GPS-enabled cell phone sends the latitude and longitude information it has received from the GPS network to their cell phone company using their cell phone network. The cell phone company releases that information to the PSAP receiving the call, so they can pinpoint the caller’s location. This is particularly useful if the person is unable to communicate their address or doesn’t know where they are.
http://gpssystems.net/cell-phone-gps-how-does-it-work/

So... it only would work if she had a GPS-enabled phone, otherwise, they'd have to use the old-fashioned triangulation method to try to determine her location.

 

[Isabelle]

I still disagree. 911 Dispatchers are giving information to the police as they are getting it. Most people cannot type and chew gum at the same time. So while you sit in judgement of them, they are doing 3 or 4 things at the same time getting the info out to the proper people. They juggle ALOT!! Usually while they are talking you, they are disseminating the information to the people on the street! So again, until you sit their shoes.... I would not judge!

JP and JP ALONE is responible for this. Nobody else!

If there was no dispatch for 8 minutes after the call from the case worker ended, the 911 operator was not dispatching a call during the phone conversation. His critical thinking is flawed. My experience has found that the majority of 911 workers and EMT's are nothing more than frustrated wannabe's and like to be in control, in the wrong way!

 

[Adrienne37]

Maybe what the state of Washington needs is something similar to what Florida will adopt effective October 2012 after the tragedy of the Denise Amber Lee murder. I know many of my fellow Sleuthers have followed Denise's case. Lord knows, Florida doesn't do much right with these cases but hopefully something like this won't happen here again. I think it would be a great idea to mandate all states to adopt a program such as the Denise Amber Lee bill.

For more info (from the link)...

Here in Florida, one of the biggest changes for the public safety telecommunicator is state-mandated standardized training (also known as the Denise Amber Lee Bill). Effective October 1, 2012, all public safety telecommunicators must be state-certified, in addition to continuing education with re-certification every two years. A 232-hour curriculum framework was established with the Florida Department of Education. The Florida Department of Health (DOH) has been tasked with overseeing certification, equivalency and compliance. Subject matter experts worked with DOH in creating a certification exam. The bottom line: October 1, 2012 begins the evolution of public safety telecommunications in Florida, moving in to an era of professionalism based on statewide standardized training, expecting the same level of service whether 9-1-1 is called in the panhandle or the keys.

http://deniseamberlee.org/news-and-media/blog/1-blog/39-the-denise-amber-lee-bill.html