4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #77

[Gemmie]

IMHO the easiest route would have been to walk down the street between the house and the apartments and either walk to the house from down where the trash cans were or a little above that (where one could jump down or sit and then go over the embankment). From there he could have gone around the side of the house to the back. The main problems with that would be that he would have been visible to cars going by, people looking out their windows, and possibly getting caught on a camera - unless the one at the house next door only picks up audio.

The other way would have been if he'd scouted out a less difficult way to cut thru the woods from the parking lot above / behind the house. That would provide the most cover and would seem the most likely, but I still believe it would be less than ideal. Watching LE make their way down during the day (on the video) shows it is possible, but even though they could see where they're going, they still held onto trees, stepped over underbrush, etc and pushed limbs out of the way so they didn't get slapped in the face by them. In the dark, it seems like one would need a flashlight at the very least -- and maybe he did have one and stuck it in a pocket or left it sitting on the patio. IMO - or more just plain speculation than opinion with all of this.

In thread 5, page 11 @otto posted a very interesting map and wrote: "I'm always curious about the location of murders. I pulled up a topography map. Each blue line represents a 10 feet increase in elevation. The red line is the property boundary. Queen Street is at the top of the map. There are measurement tools available too. That looks like a steep, treed back yard." - the map is linked below.(BBM)

Thank you to everyone for your input, great ideas and suggestions!

The video showing LE walking thru the woods behind the house:

Local police arrive at ISP office and scour the backwoods of Idaho murders | Fox News Video

Local police arrive at ISP office and scour the backwoods of Idaho murders

www.foxnews.com

Here's what struck me when I watched the vid in the link you provided... and that's how where they are standing on the road allows a PERFECT view straight into Maddie's bedroom window for anyone parked where they are standing. How many times had BK been parked in that exact spot? How often did she close her curtains, or were they open most of the time? I hope there's a cam near that spot that captured his car there at various times and dates.

And the walk down is pretty easy. It's a great way to sneak up on the house as the front entrance is wide open with no trees for cover.

Pic source ~2 min in: Local police arrive at ISP office and scour the backwoods of Idaho murders | Fox News Video

 

[Boxer]

Moon was 80% illiminated on 11/13/22. Moon rose after sunset and moon set after sunrise.

 

[jepop]

I've given the 'where exactly might alleged killer have parked question' a little more thought lately. For now I'm imagining that he likely did park south-east of 1122 up the side road. MOO, but as the elantra was captured on camera heading east on Queen just after c4.04am/maybe 4.05am and then not seen again until leaving area at c4.20am, I'm making an assumption that he probably parked east of the camera that caught him attempting the park/u turn in front of 1122 .

More detail which is just inference bounced off PCA mixed with speculation - heading east at 4.04am approx he passes DD vehicle on Queen St heading west. Navigating the pass and processing this incident he gets flustered, misses sighting the lighting situation at 1122. Continues on past 1122 straight east to 500 block Queen and is captured on camera turning there. Now heading west, sees way is clear and lights are low or whatever it is he needs to feel confident going in. Rather than trying to park behind cars in the packed lot or right in front on the road (he might be noticed/remembered), now attempts to turn back around to go to his pre-planned park to the south-east. But it's too hard, time is of the essence & by this time he's very frustrated. So drives west to intersection does the three point turn captured by a camera in that area and returns past 1122 to his park out of sight to the south-east. By this time it could be around 4.06am IMO. I've thought and posted previously about the timing from parking to entry previously. I don't see him entering the house before 4.06-4.08am. MOO.

Yes, the time line is tight but, agreeing with some others, doable in an assumed/speculated context (and there is always a context IMO but when puzzling about such things we have to speculate context to some extent off the minimum known). My base line is that I currently believe the murders did take place between approx 4am and 4.20am. I also believe that the killer arrived at the scene in the white elantra referred to in the PCA as suspect vehicle 1. MOO

Regarding why alleged killer not concerned about being seen by other cars in area or being seen on foot south-east of 1122.. . I wonder if at this early morning hour he figured the odds of a car (or another if he did pass DD going west) entering the dead end road to the south-east were low and took his chances. Ditto re someone looking out a window (seems he's already done that just by driving up the road). MOO. I waver between speculating the killer decided to take his chances with street cameras and the elantra (via compulsion), or believed that LE would not be able to trace back to him. When on foot after parking I think it's possible he could go down that embankment, sheltered by the east wall of the house, and walk around to the back without necessarily being captured by the (I'm assuming) camera opposite 1122 lot on Queen (camera that captured his attempted turn/park). Possibly because of a combo of dark clothing, and keeping to shadows/the treeline.
All MOO.

 

[DeDee]

Here's what struck me when I watched the vid in the link you provided... and that's how where they are standing on the road allows a PERFECT view straight into Maddie's bedroom window for anyone parked where they are standing. How many times had BK been parked in that exact spot? How often did she close her curtains, or were they open most of the time? I hope there's a cam near that spot that captured his car there at various times and dates.

And the walk down is pretty easy. It's a great way to sneak up on the house as the front entrance is wide open with no trees for cover.
View attachment 415094

Pic source ~2 min in: Local police arrive at ISP office and scour the backwoods of Idaho murders | Fox News Video

These murders of the beautiful college students terrify me. I agree with your assessment on the ability to park on the street outside of Maddie's bdrm as well as the walk down to the slider being fairly easy. I wonder if LE knows where the Elantra parked that awful night.

Has it been determined if the 1122 House left the patio lights on a string turned on every night? It appears the patio lights were left on the night of the murders since they're still on in the NYP image. I suppose the ladder belonged with the 1122 House.

I recall the white food container from the GrubHub was placed on top of the trash on the patio but the trash looks differently in the NYP image than I remember. JMO It's odd that LE took the dumpster but not the trash on the patio from the 1122 House. JMO

November 23, 2022 photo credit: James Keivom
https://nypost.com/2022/11/23/plans-reveal-layout-of-house-where-killer-knifed-university-of-idaho-students/

 

[maconrich]

Here's what struck me when I watched the vid in the link you provided... and that's how where they are standing on the road allows a PERFECT view straight into Maddie's bedroom window for anyone parked where they are standing. How many times had BK been parked in that exact spot? How often did she close her curtains, or were they open most of the time? I hope there's a cam near that spot that captured his car there at various times and dates.

And the walk down is pretty easy. It's a great way to sneak up on the house as the front entrance is wide open with no trees for cover.
View attachment 415094

Pic source ~2 min in: Local police arrive at ISP office and scour the backwoods of Idaho murders | Fox News Video

I'm inclined to think the killer did watch the house from the parking lot above/behind, the road beside, from the woods and possibly from close to the house in their back yard. Or even from more secluded areas across the street. It's possible others watched as well, especially if the blinds were frequently left open. The woods behind the house might have given the illusion of privacy to those inside, but IMHO it was only an illusion. I've seen the term "fish bowl" used on here and, sadly, that seems to be an accurate description.

Another thing that stands out to me is that I don't remember seeing binoculars, etc found on search warrants or receipts. I'll look again, but if he didn't use them, he must have had a good enough view that they weren't necessary. Edited to add: he could have used binoculars, etc even if they weren't listed in the search warrants.

 

[maconrich]

It's a great video. I'd never seen it before. Beginning at about 4.24 the officers walk down quite easily from the road above to the south-east corner of the house ie to the level area below balcony outside MM's room. MOO.

To be fair, in the video, it looks like the officers went down a few different ways -- some easier than others. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if others did the same. They still had the advantage of the daylight and being able to stand in the parking lot and the road beside the house and see ways down that didn't look as challenging. The killer could have done the same, even if it would have been risky. Or he simply spent enough time observing (at night) and with a little trial and error found the path he'd take. And once he did, I'm inclined to believe he practiced going up and down until he was completely comfortable doing so.
With where he parked, I think the tight time line in the PCA comes into play as much as the route he walked. - Also taking into consideration that he needed to park somwhere close but not overly obvious (to anyone passing by etc). IMHO it seems like if he came down thru the woods, he most likely parked in the parking lot above the house. If he came in from the front he could have parked along the side road, or up in the top parking lot. As crowded as the parking in front of the house was, it seems like a less likely choice, but who knows?

 

[Boxer]

To be fair, in the video, it looks like the officers went down a few different ways -- some easier than others. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if others did the same. They still had the advantage of the daylight and being able to stand in the parking lot and the road beside the house and see ways down that didn't look as challenging. The killer could have done the same, even if it would have been risky. Or he simply spent enough time observing (at night) and with a little trial and error found the path he'd take. And once he did, I'm inclined to believe he practiced going up and down until he was completely comfortable doing so.
With where he parked, I think the tight time line in the PCA comes into play as much as the route he walked. - Also taking into consideration that he needed to park somwhere close but not overly obvious (to anyone passing by etc). IMHO it seems like if he came down thru the woods, he most likely parked in the parking lot above the house. If he came in from the front he could have parked along the side road, or up in the top parking lot. As crowded as the parking in front of the house was, it seems like a less likely choice, but who knows?

Moon was 80% all night, MOO informal paths lace the hillside and presents no problem for a young athletic man, walking down and is easier up.

 

[maconrich]

Moon was 80% all night, MOO informal paths lace the hillside and presents no problem for a young athletic man, walking down and is easier up.

Yes, even with the trees the moon would have provided light. And since it was mid Nov the foliage etc should have been thinning out (which also would have made it less difficult). If he had a headlamp like @10ofRods suggested, it would have been easier for him to go down, and for sure easier to go back up since he was carrying a knife (without a sheath). There could be informal paths. I'm not sure if the police were seeing those or just seeing ways that looked relatively easy to climb down. I don't however believe the killer went down that hill for the first time that night. Even if he is a young athletic man. IMHO he practiced his route physically and mentally - no matter if he planned to cut thru the woods or walk down the side road. (Edited to correct a word)

 

[jepop]

To be fair, in the video, it looks like the officers went down a few different ways -- some easier than others. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if others did the same. They still had the advantage of the daylight and being able to stand in the parking lot and the road beside the house and see ways down that didn't look as challenging. The killer could have done the same, even if it would have been risky. Or he simply spent enough time observing (at night) and with a little trial and error found the path he'd take. And once he did, I'm inclined to believe he practiced going up and down until he was completely comfortable doing so.
With where he parked, I think the tight time line in the PCA comes into play as much as the route he walked. - Also taking into consideration that he needed to park somwhere close but not overly obvious (to anyone passing by etc). IMHO it seems like if he came down thru the woods, he most likely parked in the parking lot above the house. If he came in from the front he could have parked along the side road, or up in the top parking lot. As crowded as the parking in front of the house was, it seems like a less likely choice, but who knows?

RSBBM: Agree. Time definately of the essence! I think he parked on the road to the south-east of the 1122's front lot, ie up the hill behind the house (I call that the side road to the south-east. Just to distinguish it from the track that runs along the west side of the house). So when heading east past 1122 on Queen, veer right, where the police are pictured in the great vid you posted, I think he parked up there somewhere. That'just what I infer from the PCA and MOO ofcourse. I don't think there were any cameras up there because per PCA the car is last seen heading east on Queen and then...the next time the car is seen it is 'leaving the area' at high speed around 15 mins later. MOO

 

[maskedwoman]

YES, Madison Mogen, Kaylee Goncalves, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin will receive appropriate recognition posthumously.

I sent an email to Pres. Scott Green because today is the last day to nominate someone for an honorary degree. I was shocked to hear back from him.
My email:
I am wondering whether or not the U of Idaho will be honoring or give honorary degrees to Madison Mogen, Kaylee Goncalves, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin at the Spring Commencement?
Please honor them with degrees.

From:
Green, Scott ([email protected]) <[email protected]>
3:22 PM (2 hours ago)

to ----------

Yes, they will receive the appropriate recognition posthumously.

C. SCOTT GREEN
President

Office of the President
Office: Administration 105
[email protected]
www.uidaho.edu/president
208-885-6365
875 Perimeter Dr | Moscow ID 83844-3151
851 Campus Dr | Moscow ID 83844-3151

Good for you - thank you for doing that!

 

[maconrich]

RSBBM: Agree. Time definately of the essence! I think he parked on the road to the south-east of the 1122's front lot, ie up the hill behind the house (I call that the side road to the south-east. Just to distinguish it from the track that runs along the west side of the house). So when heading east past 1122 on Queen, veer right, where the police are pictured in the great vid you posted, I think he parked up there somewhere. That'just what I infer from the PCA and MOO ofcourse. I don't think there were any cameras up there because per PCA the car is last seen heading east on Queen and then...the next time the car is seen it is 'leaving the area' at high speed around 15 mins later. MOO

That makes sense to me. I do wonder how he missed seeing those particular cameras when he was scouting the area, but it's helpful that he did. I'm still not comfortable with the time line that's presented in the PCA though. It might be do-able but it's just a bit too tight. IMHO, MOO

 

[jepop]

That makes sense to me. I do wonder how he missed seeing those particular cameras when he was scouting the area, but it's helpful that he did. I'm still not comfortable with the time line that's presented in the PCA though. It might be do-able but it's just a bit too tight. IMHO, MOO

I get why some feel that way and it is a valid POV. Just personally and posted only to elaborate my own thinking processes - others do and will differ and that's fine: The two main things I keep in mind are firstly an assumed context which I can't avoid and is strictly MOO - the killer had needs that he was compelled to satisfy, a mind-set and a committment to killing. In the end and on the night, this killer took his chances; and secondly, the weopen -very likely a horrendously big knife. A weopen with the ability to disable ambushed sleepy/sleeping/un-prepared victims very quickly when in the hands of someone determined and committed to doing so. MOO.

 

[maconrich]

I get why some feel that way and it is a valid POV. Just personally and posted only to elaborate my own thinking processes - others do and will differ and that's fine: The two main things I keep in mind are firstly an assumed context which I can't avoid and is strictly MOO - the killer had needs that he was compelled to satisfy, a mind-set and a committment to killing. In the end and on the night, this killer took his chances; and secondly, the weopen -very likely a horrendously big knife. A weopen with the ability to disable ambushed sleepy/sleeping/un-prepared victims very quickly when in the hands of someone determined and committed to doing so. MOO.

I actually agree with you. There are things that bother me, or that I question, including the tight time line: like how did he get to the house so fast; where did he park; did he know the layout of the house; etc etc. And we don't even know if Xana was the one who retrieved her DD order or if it was handed over or put outside the door. And there are other aspects of the crime that are unknown or debatable. But the mindset and the knife - I totally agree; and I also agree with many other things you and others have stated.

Where I'm stuck is extremely unpopular and something I can't explain. Plain and simple, my brain still glitches when it comes to BK and the murders. I strongly believe that something isn't adding up -- like something is missing (or a few things are missing). This isn't normal for me, which adds to my confusion, but I can't shake it. If BK is guilty, and if he did this by himself, I'm sure that whatever is throwing me off will fall into place (when we get more information). I'm in no way a fan of BK's, and I'm not defending him or overlooking things that point to him. But, at this point, based on what we know so far, I wouldn't be able to find him guilty. Just MOO as frustrating as it might be.

Edited to add this, which is a bit OT: If Ethan was involved in school sports, I hope he receives awards for those things too. He reminds me so much of my (deceased) son that it throws me at times - but I do see him for who he was (based on what we know) and I do my best to keep my maternal feelings out of it. All of these young people were amazing in their own right, and I do want to see justice for them.

 

[Gemmie]

Where I'm stuck is extremely unpopular and something I can't explain. Plain and simple, my brain still glitches when it comes to BK and the murders. I strongly believe that something isn't adding up -- like something is missing (or a few things are missing). This isn't normal for me, which adds to my confusion, but I can't shake it. If BK is guilty, and if he did this by himself, I'm sure that whatever is throwing me off will fall into place (when we get more information). I'm in no way a fan of BK's, and I'm not defending him or overlooking things that point to him. But, at this point, based on what we know so far, I wouldn't be able to find him guilty. Just MOO as frustrating as it might be.

SBMFF

Anything that you can elaborate on that isn't adding up for you? You might not know till those pieces fall into place but I'd like to hear what's nagging you since it's not normal for you. Your post has really aroused my curiosity.

 

[Wallendo]

I actually agree with you. There are things that bother me, or that I question, including the tight time line: like how did he get to the house so fast; where did he park; did he know the layout of the house; etc etc. And we don't even know if Xana was the one who retrieved her DD order or if it was handed over or put outside the door. And there are other aspects of the crime that are unknown or debatable. But the mindset and the knife - I totally agree; and I also agree with many other things you and others have stated.

Where I'm stuck is extremely unpopular and something I can't explain. Plain and simple, my brain still glitches when it comes to BK and the murders. I strongly believe that something isn't adding up -- like something is missing (or a few things are missing). This isn't normal for me, which adds to my confusion, but I can't shake it. If BK is guilty, and if he did this by himself, I'm sure that whatever is throwing me off will fall into place (when we get more information). I'm in no way a fan of BK's, and I'm not defending him or overlooking things that point to him. But, at this point, based on what we know so far, I wouldn't be able to find him guilty. Just MOO as frustrating as it might be.

Edited to add this, which is a bit OT: If Ethan was involved in school sports, I hope he receives awards for those things too. He reminds me so much of my (deceased) son that it throws me at times - but I do see him for who he was (based on what we know) and I do my best to keep my maternal feelings out of it. All of these young people were amazing in their own right, and I do want to see justice for them.

To be honest, I think few jurors would be able to convict based on the very limited amount of actual information that has been released.

The prosecutor is trying this case in court, not in the press.

All we really know is that LE has enough to charge him. It would seem that the evidence is strong enough for the defense to not waste time trying to get him out on bail.

 

[maconrich]

SBMFF

Anything that you can elaborate on that isn't adding up for you? You might not know till those pieces fall into place but I'd like to hear what's nagging you since it's not normal for you. Your post has really aroused my curiosity.

It's difficult to explain since I don't understand it myself. It's like I'm looking at BK on one hand and at the murders on the other. There's no coming together or connecting the two yet. As in I can question and look at the murders and see things logically (even if I dismiss some of them - like most of the News Nation stuff); but I use the terms murderer or intruder when discussing things because I'm not putting a face to the killer. BK on the other hand, despite some odd and off the wall things that have been reported, what we know of him is extremely limited. But I am inclined to believe, based on what's been reported, that he's a rather strange young man. But there are a lot of strange and even bizarre people that aren't killers. So did he do it? Maybe. Did he act alone? Maybe. Or maybe there's some sort of connection between him and the victims that goes beyond him allegedly trying to contact them on social media or even possibly stalking them. Between him and the victims or between someone else and the victims that he could have gotten pulled into (most likely by choice). Basically an illusive something that I do think (or at least hope) will come out so things will fall into place. Again, I can't really explain it because I don't understand it. I do think I'll have an Eureka moment if /when the missing information comes out though.

 

[Gemmie]

It's difficult to explain since I don't understand it myself. It's like I'm looking at BK on one hand and at the murders on the other. There's no coming together or connecting the two yet. As in I can question and look at the murders and see things logically (even if I dismiss some of them - like most of the News Nation stuff); but I use the terms murderer or intruder when discussing things because I'm not putting a face to the killer. BK on the other hand, despite some odd and off the wall things that have been reported, what we know of him is extremely limited. But I am inclined to believe, based on what's been reported, that he's a rather strange young man. But there are a lot of strange and even bizarre people that aren't killers. So did he do it? Maybe. Did he act alone? Maybe. Or maybe there's some sort of connection between him and the victims that goes beyond him allegedly trying to contact them on social media or even possibly stalking them. Between him and the victims or between someone else and the victims that he could have gotten pulled into (most likely by choice). Basically an illusive something that I do think (or at least hope) will come out so things will fall into place. Again, I can't really explain it because I don't understand it. I do think I'll have an Eureka moment if /when the missing information comes out though.

Thank you for explaining the best you can.

 

[Deleted member 718]

RSBBM: Agree. Time definately of the essence! I think he parked on the road to the south-east of the 1122's front lot, ie up the hill behind the house (I call that the side road to the south-east. Just to distinguish it from the track that runs along the west side of the house). So when heading east past 1122 on Queen, veer right, where the police are pictured in the great vid you posted, I think he parked up there somewhere. That'just what I infer from the PCA and MOO ofcourse. I don't think there were any cameras up there because per PCA the car is last seen heading east on Queen and then...the next time the car is seen it is 'leaving the area' at high speed around 15 mins later. MOO

Hey @jepop, how do the tire marks in front of the house fit in this scenario?

I've spent (too much) time trying to figure out where he may have parked compared to where he left the tire marks.

The video below shows LE measuring the marks and gives a good idea of the location.

Idaho university murders: Investigators seen measuring tire marks at house where 4 students were killed

Idaho investigators were seen measuring tire marks outside of the Moscow, Idaho, home where four University of Idaho students were stabbed to death.

www.foxnews.com

 

[jepop]

DBM

 

[Boxer]

I actually agree with you. There are things that bother me, or that I question, including the tight time line: like how did he get to the house so fast; where did he park; did he know the layout of the house; etc etc. And we don't even know if Xana was the one who retrieved her DD order or if it was handed over or put outside the door. And there are other aspects of the crime that are unknown or debatable. But the mindset and the knife - I totally agree; and I also agree with many other things you and others have stated.

Where I'm stuck is extremely unpopular and something I can't explain. Plain and simple, my brain still glitches when it comes to BK and the murders. I strongly believe that something isn't adding up -- like something is missing (or a few things are missing). This isn't normal for me, which adds to my confusion, but I can't shake it. If BK is guilty, and if he did this by himself, I'm sure that whatever is throwing me off will fall into place (when we get more information). I'm in no way a fan of BK's, and I'm not defending him or overlooking things that point to him. But, at this point, based on what we know so far, I wouldn't be able to find him guilty. Just MOO as frustrating as it might be.

Edited to add this, which is a bit OT: If Ethan was involved in school sports, I hope he receives awards for those things too. He reminds me so much of my (deceased) son that it throws me at times - but I do see him for who he was (based on what we know) and I do my best to keep my maternal feelings out of it. All of these young people were amazing in their own right, and I do want to see justice for them.

4:04 enters area. Turns around twice the heads into Queen Rd.
MOO 4:07 leaves his parked car.

MOO moving quickly but cautiously down the hill from Queen to the slider 30 seconds.
Wait at slider to hear whats happening in house 30-60 seconds.
Cautiously entering - possibly through the window if unlocked next to the slider. Proceeding quietly upstairs, 30 seconds. Enter sleeping girls room and proceed to kill 120-180 seconds.
Hears yelling from downstairs to be quiet, startled turns back and leaves sheath, creeps to landing sees light from Xana's room or try he bathroom thinks that is where sound is from 30 seconds.
Goes assumed sound source proceeds to quickly killXana and Ethan 120-180 seconds.
Leaves from Xana's room to his car 30 seconds.
9 minutes.

4:20 Elantra speeds away



MOO 4:07-4:20 =13 minutes.