4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #79

[Nila Aella]

Another response from State: Response to motion to compel

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/051223%20States%20Response%20to%20Defendants%20Motion%20to%20Compel%20Discovery.pdf

ETA response to motion to compel

 

[DFWNF]

Interesting. Now I'm trying to figure out how that would help either the State's case or the defense.

I can't figure out how either. Irrelevant and would be inflammatory and victim shaming imo.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I wish I could see that. I'd like to hear him speak.

The video of the commencement will be uploaded here at some point, I'll keep looking and post here when it's up:

Videos of Past Commencements - University of Idaho

 

[10ofRods]

Snake River you say....parking by the Snake River.....

Hummm....We know what rivers are used for.

To me, there has to be a good reason why he drives down that way two different times within a 24 hour period, both trips after the Elantra is seen leaving 1122 King area.

First time, it was still dark. He might have been unable to find his way easily to the river (doesn't strike as a good navigator/driver, JMO). He drives past a second time after going back to 1122 King. It's even possible (PURE SPECULATION) that he realized fully, in the light of day, that he had left the sheath in the house. He may have gone back hoping it was outside the house somewhere. Finding the house still unawake and no police present, I do wonder if he thought about going back inside (maybe he even did - but got spooked and left without the sheath).

My own profile of BK is that he is fastidious, believes in certain theories of crime, and must have been somewhat agitated by the missing sheath. Did he delay his evidence dumping until the second trip? I don't think the PCA actually mentions many stops on that second trip (but that doesn't mean stops didn't happen).

Since we know that Albertson's has a video record of him in the aisles, they can compute his approximate time of going through the check-out stand pretty closely. If he paid cash for his purchases, that may be a weak link. However, both the store video and the coffee worker have him in Clarkston that Sunday at around noon (but he was only at the house at 9:30? For how long? What was he doing in between?)

I also think he's fairly naïve about the landscape of that part of Idaho/Washington. He may have thought he'd easily find a forest road or something, where he could dump his evidence. He makes that first pass just before dawn, stops a few times, but apparently in towns or near the road. Second time through, we have a missing hour or so for that route. And he has his phone on!

IIRC. IMO. Speculation.

 

[Boxer]

An intoxication level of a key witness would be very important. Because her perception and memory would be impaired.

How would impairment affect her statement which was given without any other reference point? Due to the mask, her information can only be
"not excluding," cannot be an ID.

I think her statement is very important and will be important, and her level of intoxication is immaterial. It is only an issue because it can be used by the defense as a subtler method of character impeachment.

 

[Boxer]

To me, there has to be a good reason why he drives down that way two different times within a 24 hour period, both trips after the Elantra is seen leaving 1122 King area.

First time, it was still dark. He might have been unable to find his way easily to the river (doesn't strike as a good navigator/driver, JMO). He drives past a second time after going back to 1122 King. It's even possible (PURE SPECULATION) that he realized fully, in the light of day, that he had left the sheath in the house. He may have gone back hoping it was outside the house somewhere. Finding the house still unawake and no police present, I do wonder if he thought about going back inside (maybe he even did - but got spooked and left without the sheath).

My own profile of BK is that he is fastidious, believes in certain theories of crime, and must have been somewhat agitated by the missing sheath. Did he delay his evidence dumping until the second trip? I don't think the PCA actually mentions many stops on that second trip (but that doesn't mean stops didn't happen).

Since we know that Albertson's has a video record of him in the aisles, they can compute his approximate time of going through the check-out stand pretty closely. If he paid cash for his purchases, that may be a weak link. However, both the store video and the coffee worker have him in Clarkston that Sunday at around noon (but he was only at the house at 9:30? For how long? What was he doing in between?)

I also think he's fairly naïve about the landscape of that part of Idaho/Washington. He may have thought he'd easily find a forest road or something, where he could dump his evidence. He makes that first pass just before dawn, stops a few times, but apparently in towns or near the road. Second time through, we have a missing hour or so for that route. And he has his phone on!

IIRC. IMO. Speculation.

MOO Maybe he had panic the next day triggered by a fear of the same kind error Leticia Stauch made, of not ensuring all evidence was under water.
Or maybe he just wanted to feel
like he was still commiting the crime.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

An intoxication level of a key witness would be very important. Because her perception and memory would be impaired.

Does LE drug test witness's to a crime?

 

[jjleroche]

Snake River you say....parking by the Snake River.....

Hummm....We know what rivers are used for.

Mmmm. Is Snake River fast-flowing? IIRC here in Australia, there have been sections of waterways where the sediment* beneath the water has been very closely inspected -(successfully) - not "dredging" as such, but using teams of divers.

If the knife was located, is it of evidentiary value now?

*I don't think this is the correct term - can't think of the correct name.

 

[10ofRods]

Another response from State: Response to motion to compel

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/051223%20States%20Response%20to%20Defendants%20Motion%20to%20Compel%20Discovery.pdf

ETA response to motion to compel

Ah. So it is as some of us expected. The State does have a response. The State does not have any further documentation, notes or videos from the PA arrest in its possession.

State has given over ALL forensic evidence it has from the parental home and now it is incumbent on the defense to specify what further thing they think the State may have - as the State says it has nothing more from that group of requests. The Judge will almost certainly agree that it has to be more specific than already stated.

State also responds that it's also clarified another matter and so declares before the Court.

State says it has complied with everything except the training records (which it says it needs more justification to produce under Idaho rules of evidence, as I understand it).

Great response by the State. And thank you (and @Sister Golden Hair and others) for keeping this evidence saga in our view.

This is a fascinating read for us trial-watchers.

IMO.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Interesting. Now I'm trying to figure out how that would help either the State's case or the defense.

MOO

One scenario that I recall was discussed here early on, maybe mid-January, is the possibility that the indoor air in the house was "gassed" by the perpetrator with something that put them all to sleep or was intended to disable them and prevented them from being able to "come to" and fight back.

And in the case of the surviving victims could have kept them from reacting sooner. ETA: Or could have made them disoriented.

There was speculation some type of disabling gas could have been distributed throughout the house via the central air heating/ventilation system.

IIRC, this came up as speculation based on MSM articles after the murders as to why there was an HVAC contractor seen at the crime scene with LE. Why was HVAC contractor at the crime scene?

And because there was information BK had some HVAC training (in HS) once he was arrested and identified as LE's only suspect. Kohberger enrolled in the law enforcement program at the district's technical school during his sophomore year, then switched to the HVAC program his junior year, Yozwiak said.

So there was speculation about whether maybe there was a possible connection and BK had spiked the indoor air to have a physical or tactical advantage over the victims when he allegedly stabbed them, and he came prepared and wore a protective half face mask/breather so he wouldn't breathe it in himself.

And this may have been one of the reasons the front door may have been left open (this has not been confirmed, AFAIK), to air it out some and/or kick on the heat to flush the gas out of the system to eliminate the evidence.

Under this possible scenario, if any or all of the victims had some type of gas in their blood that was consistent with something like carbon monoxide exposure or poisoning, that would show up on a toxicological screen.

If it did, that could be helpful to the prosecution in demonstrating that BK had premeditatedly planned to disable them with gas, and then once disabled, to murder them.

All MOO

 

[U.N. Known]

In any case MOO why would a witness being drunk or high make any difference?

She told what she saw, later her information did not exclude a primary suspect.

Humans are notorious for having imperfect recollections of events and people, yet many of us, jurors included, want someone to say, I know "he " is the guilty one because I saw him do it. If either side can prove that the witness was impaired in any way, that testimony could be impacted.

If a witness got on the stand and said, "I saw Boxer steal that car," but the opposing attorney proved that the witness was drunk or otherwise impaired at the time she witnessed the theft, I would have doubts as to whether you were really the person the witness saw.

I don't know that it would matter much in this case unless there is an unknown witness who actually saw the murders or the unmasked face of the intruder. I would not find BK guilty or not guilty based on what I know of DM's information.

 

[U.N. Known]

At 4 am, I doubt the two early-retiring housemates were still under the influence. But I also doubt that they were asked to do a breathalyzer (makes no sense in the circumstances - bloodwork would be needed; I doubt LE decided to do that for two non-suspects).

Thankfully. If it turns out they did test the two survivors, that's going to change some people's views on the victim friendliness of the otherwise apparently compassionate MPD.

IMO.

Yes, a breathalyzer would have been useless at that point. Considering the nature of the case and the lack of obvious, immediate suspects, I would not fault LE if they had requested bloodwork.

 

[Boxer]

Humans are notorious for having imperfect recollections of events and people, yet many of us, jurors included, want someone to say, I know "he " is the guilty one because I saw him do it. If either side can prove that the witness was impaired in any way, that testimony could be impacted.

If a witness got on the stand and said, "I saw Boxer steal that car," but the opposing attorney proved that the witness was drunk or otherwise impaired at the time she witnessed the theft, I would have doubts as to whether you were really the person the witness saw.

I don't know that it would matter much in this case unless there is an unknown witness who actually saw the murders or the unmasked face of the intruder. I would not find BK guilty or not guilty based on what I know of DM's information.

MOO Saying you saw a specific person and this is them would be a positive identification.

DM provided a description of an intruder before BK was identified by other evidence as a suspect.

Her description of an intruder is not an identification.
Her description of the intruder does not exclude BK.

 

[ktm44]

MOO

One scenario that I recall was discussed here early on, maybe mid-January is the possibility that the indoor air in the house was "gassed" by the perpetrator with something that put them all to sleep or was intended to disable them and prevented them from being able to "come to" and fight back.

And in the case of the surviving victims could have kept them from reacting sooner.

There was speculation some type of disabling gas could have been distributed throughout the house via the central air heating/ventilation system.

IIRC, this came up as speculation based on MSM articles after the murders as to why there was an HVAC contractor seen at the house with LE. Why was HVAC contractor at the crime scene?

And because there was information BK had some HVAC training (in HS) once he was arrested and identified as LE's only suspect. Kohberger enrolled in the law enforcement program at the district's technical school during his sophomore year, then switched to the HVAC program his junior year, Yozwiak said.

So there was speculation about whether maybe there was a possible connection and BK had spiked the indoor air to have a physical or tactical advantage over the victims when he allegedly stabbed them, and he came prepared and wore a protective half face mask/breather so he wouldn't breathe it in himself.

And may have been one of the reasons the front door may have been left open (this has not been confirmed, AFAIK), to air it out some and/or kick on the heat to flush the gas out of the system to eliminate the evidence.

Under this possible scenario, if any or all of the victims had some type of gas in their blood that was consistent with something like carbon monoxide exposure or poisoning, that would show up on a toxicological screen.

If it did, that could be helpful to the prosecution in demonstrating that BK had premeditatedly planned to disable them with gas, and then once disabled, to murder them.

All MOO

I'm not a HVAC expert but I feel that the gassing theory is quite far fetched. We have a statement from one roommate that she awoke multiple times and there was a comment in the PCA about forensic downloads being taken from both roommates phones so that suggests congnitive ability.

At the initial time of the investigation, nobody would have known that the suspect had HVAC experience so that's also a non starter for me but furnaces are not a sealed system where you could easily pump toxic fumes into a house.

I would suggest HVAC was called for much more benign reasons such as assisting LE in assisting to removing the filter for potential evidence or possibly verifying that that the furnace hadn't malfunctioned by way of a simple carbon monoxide test (which doesn't make sense because LE was already inside investigating).

It was mentioned at one time that the furnace was older and if the front door was left open, the pilot light on older model furnaces may have gone out because of a draft and they may have been required simply to restart the furnace to prevent pipes from freezing and evidence being destroyed.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I'm not a HVAC expert but I feel that the gassing theory is quite far fetched. We have a statement from one roommate that she awoke multiple times and there was a comment in the PCA about forensic downloads being taken from both roommates phones so that suggests congnitive ability.

At the initial time of the investigation, nobody would have known that the suspect had HVAC experience so that's also a non starter for me but furnaces are not a sealed system where you could easily pump toxic fumes into a house.

I would suggest HVAC was called for much more benign reasons such as assisting LE in assisting to removing the filter for potential evidence or possibly verifying that that the furnace hadn't malfunctioned by way of a simple carbon monoxide test (which doesn't make sense because LE was already inside investigating).

It was mentioned at one time that the furnace was older and if the front door was left open, the pilot light on older model furnaces may have gone out because of a draft and they may have been required simply to restart the furnace to prevent pipes from freezing and evidence being destroyed.

I agree it could be far fetched, @ktm44

I posted about it as a reminder that it was one possible scenario, from 3 plus months back, that was discussed here that some more recent people following this thread may not know of.

And that could tie in to toxicological results from the victims' being relevant, that would have nothing to do with the victims' toxicology being of the self-induced kind, which has been discussed of late.

MOO

 

[Sundog]

MOO Saying you saw a specific person and this is them would be a positive identification.

DM provided a description of an intruder before BK was identified by other evidence as a suspect.

Her description of an intruder is not an identification.
Her description of the intruder does not exclude BK.

I think the new attorney who was recently added to BK's defense team will try to get the description of the person DM describes thrown out, or at least put DM's description in doubt by the jury. The new attorney is an expert in eye witness testimony and had a famous case on America's Most Wanted overturned due to issues related to eye witness testimony.

I suspect the bushy eyebrows testimony and height and physique of the person DM described will be put into question by this new attorney, along with the experts who she puts on the stand regarding witness testimony.

The witness' state of mind and other conditions will be of interest to the experts who will testify about the credibility of witness testimony. DM is certainly a victim, but in a death penalty case, her testimony will come under intense scrutiny as the stakes are so high.

 

[10ofRods]

Mmmm. Is Snake River fast-flowing? IIRC here in Australia, there have been sections of waterways where the sediment* beneath the water has been very closely inspected -(successfully) - not "dredging" as such, but using teams of divers.

If the knife was located, is it of evidentiary value now?

*I don't think this is the correct term - can't think of the correct name.

It certainly can be. It has some really deep sections, as well. I know that there are dams along its length. Probably very silty on the bottom, though. It was never an easy river to navigate, either (so not many places where one can get into the river or put in a boat - Clarkston is one of those places, though; both Lewis and Clark used the area as a base of operations, having found big sections of the Snake to be unpassable by boat, that area was their best field camp.

If a Ka-Bar knife is found in the Snake River, I would say it has evidentiary value; I think the jury's ears would prick up. Especially as phone records and the video in Albertson's show the defendant to have been right in that area. However, it's a needle in a haystack.

(I think you used your terms properly, btw - its evidentiary value would be lessened by having all relevant biological evidence scraped off in the sandpaper bottom of that river, IMO).

But it would still form a nice link in the circumstantial trail, if found in the Snake. And I do believe it's possible that it's in the Snake and that LE is monitoring the traps at the various dams down river from there (as they did in the Suzanne Morphew case, but in that case, to no avail).

We will likely hear at the PH whether they sent divers into the water near that coffee stand (I bet they did).

IMO.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I think the new attorney who was recently added to BK's defense team will try to get the description of the person DM describes thrown out, or at least put DM's description in doubt by the jury. The new attorney is an expert in eye witness testimony and had a famous case on America's Most Wanted overturned due to issues related to eye witness testimony.

I suspect the bushy eyebrows testimony and height and physique of the person DM described will be put into question by this new attorney, along with the experts who she puts on the stand regarding witness testimony.

The witness' state of mind and other conditions will be of interest to the experts who will testify about the credibility of witness testimony. DM is certainly a victim, but in a death penalty case, her testimony will come under intense scrutiny as the stakes are so high.

I think the defense should tread lightly when questioning the roommate or experts called to testify about her statements.

The jury will understand that she was traumatized by the murders and any perceived "attack" on her may anger them. JMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

@BeginnerSleuther, I think your original opinion is quite valid, and I'm providing the links to support this.

IMO the prosecution would know what valid affirmative defenses BK might have and if there were evidence to support those defenses. They would know this because the laws for murder are codified, so it's not a grab-bag of excuses.

Here are the ID statutes for Justifiable Homicide, Excusable Homicide, and Manslaughter. Those are the statutes that would allow for a 'yes, I did it, but... ' affirmative defense.

Chapter 40 – Idaho State Legislature

legislature.idaho.gov

Manslaughter, though I doubt this could be reduced to manslaughter:

Section 18-4006 – Idaho State Legislature

legislature.idaho.gov

Justifiable Homicide: Section 18-4009 – Idaho State Legislature

Excusable Homicide: Section 18-4012 – Idaho State Legislature

That's it. We would have to look to case law to see how the court has interpreted those laws specifically, but they're pretty straightforward on the surface. There may be variations on the themes, but the affirmative defenses from those would be along the lines of which, on the surface, don't seem to fit:

Yes, but it was self-defense so they didn't murder me or commit a felony or hurt another.
Yes, but I was defending my home or business or car, etc.
Yes, but I was defending my spouse, child, etc.
Yes, but I was apprehending them.

or

Yes, but it was an accident.
Yes, but it was in the heat of passion.

And insanity is not a defense in Idaho, so mental condition is not a defense - scratch that one from the possible defenses:

Section 18-207 – Idaho State Legislature

legislature.idaho.gov

And unlikely any of those above would work, but the prosecution is aware of the legislation and what would constitute an affirmative defense in ID, so they would not have to throw spaghetti at wall IMO. Instead, they would look for exculpatory evidence that showed that any of the above applied. It's not a wild guess without laws to guide them.

Also, the burden of proof is discussed in detail here for those who want to dig into the ID court's analysis
(ISC Introduction & Use),

but the short version is this:

Based upon these decisions, the general rule in Idaho is that the defendant in a criminal case has the burden of producing evidence regarding any defense, but he does not have the burden of persuasion. Once the defense is properly raised, the state must disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt... In drafting these instructions, the committee has taken the position that once a defense is sufficiently raised, the state must disprove that defense beyond a reasonable doubt. The burden of persuasion has been placed on the defendant only where the legislature has expressly stated that the burden of persuasion is on the defendant and doing so would not violate the Due Process Clause of the federal constitution.

So BK can raise one of the defenses above, if he can produce evidence regarding those defenses, but that would seem unlikely - at this point. As I said above, I think a straight-up "Not Guilty" plea is more likely. Hard to fit what happened (4 brutal murders) and the facts as we know them at this point in time into an Affirmative Defense IMO. And "Not Guilty" allows the defense to chip away at the prosecution's BARD without providing evidence of an affirmative defense.

Wow, thank you for this very informative post. I appreciate the time and effort you put into this.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/special-reports/moscow-murders/idaho-murder-university-bryan-kohberger-discovery/277-015209e1-908f-4bab-b98f-5a22bd091468​

Here's what evidence prosecutors have provided to the Idaho murder suspect's defense​

"According to court filings by state prosecutors on Friday, they claim they have turned over thousands of photos and reports to the defense.

The document is in response to the defense's requests for discovery, which is commonplace for a case in the judicial system. This is so both sides get a chance to review and analyze the evidence against a defendant in order to see to a fair trial.

The prosecution tells the defense in the filing they have turned over 10,000 pages of reports and written materials, 10,200 photographs, 9,200 tips and 51 terabytes of video, audio and digital materials.

The defense previously asked for body camera and dash camera footage of Kohberger's arrest at his parents' home in Pennsylvania in December of 2022, but the state claims there is no more of this footage beyond what they have provided -- and interestingly enough, say there is no body camera footage from this time at all.
...
Kohberger's attorney Anne Taylor wrote in her earlier motion to compel discovery on May 4 that the defense believes forensic evidence collected from Kohberger's family home, including his white Hyundai Elantra, "may contain exculpatory evidence." The state says all of the analysis from items collected as evidence have already been disclosed to Kohberger -- even reports from the FBI laboratory in Quantico, Virginia.

In addition, the prosecution says the defense's own investigators and prosecutors are able to view all the items found at Kohberger's family home, as well as his car, at any time."