4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #79

[Deleted member 39678]

Right, and I think that would be the key. No one was killed in his apartment and there was no evidence of gallons of bleach etc. Just having and using cleaning supplies would not be proof. And it's hard to imagine that finding H202 or OxyClean in unusual places would prove much since they can be used for so many things IMO.

So it would make little sense for the defense to bring up a lack of blood evidence found at BK's apartment because it wasn't the crime scene. JMO.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

We don't actually know what LE found.

True, but don't you think that if they found that kind of evidence, they'd have removed some of it? And yet, it's not on the list of what's taken.

Editing to add: if there were evidence of massive chemical clean-up in the apartment, I would expect to see things like carpet samples removed, maybe some sheetrock sections, some cleaning supplies, etc. IIRC, we saw none of that, so while we don't know what LE found, we do know what they took. Pretty clearly. And WA is especially tricky with these things. For example, LE got that phone warrant for the storage unit even though the door was open and they had the key (right thing to do, but doesn't always happen).

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Referencing "questions I can ask....a lot of them", can you enlighten us? TIA

I've already asked a lot and I try to stay within the TOS. I think we need more information to ask relevant questions. Otherwise, it's just too random imo.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I would disagree.

circumstantial evidence

www.law.cornell.edu

circumstantial evidence​

Circumstantial evidence is indirect evidence that does not, on its face, prove a fact in issue but gives rise to a logical inference that the fact exists. Circumstantial evidence requires drawing additional reasonable inferences in order to support the claim.
For instance, circumstantial evidence of intentional discrimination can include suspicious timing, ambiguous statements, different treatment, personal animus, and other evidence can allow a jury to reasonably infer intentional discrimination.

Having and using cleaning supplies would require a real stretch for logical inference. It would be more like logical fallacy imo.

I don't think it's a stretch if there's evidence supporting the destruction of evidence by buying and using cleaning supplies. JMO.

 

[Helechawagirl]

If the State has evidence that BK purchased cleaning supplies and evidence of it's use could that be used to explain the lack of blood evidence?

IANAL, but I believe that would be speculation—not evidence.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

IANAL, but I believe that would be speculation—not evidence.

Thanks. So the State wouldn't be allowed to present that to a jury.

I don't like that. I would like the jury to decide what weight to give it. JMO.

 

[Helechawagirl]

If I may disagree just slightly, my guess is that BK was "trespassed" (WSU's verb) for the two altercations with his professor. I am speculating the professor felt his safety was threatened by BK's demeanor. All MOO, obviously.

If the issue were sexist grading, that was resolved by firing him from his TAship. If the issue were sexist remarks alone, I doubt the university would take the extreme step of banning BK from campus.

But I will admit again I have been retired from academia for over 15 years. It's possible there has been a sea change in policies since I was closely involved.

I, too, think it was the altercation (s) with his professor. JMO

 

[kittythehare]

Thanks. So the State wouldn't be allowed to present that to a jury.

I don't like that. I would like the jury to decide what weight to give it. JMO.

could be receipts for cleaning chemicals or other evidence he had purchased them..
this was carefully planned and premeditated.
damn sure there will be a trail.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

So it would make little sense for the defense to bring up a lack of blood evidence found at BK's apartment because it wasn't the crime scene. JMO.

IMO if there were reason to believe BK did away with people in his apt, then bleached it top to bottom, then all those chemicals could be relevant and explain the lack of blood, esp if there were other evidence to support their use (like receipts for gallons of bleach and Blood-be-gone, for ex). But it would have to be something that connected dots.

Based on what we know now, BK didn't kill anyone in his apartment, and there wasn't evidence taken by LE to indicate that he was using massive amounts of cleaning agents. For example, LE didn't cut up parts of the carpet or sheetrock, etc. or take evidence of cleaning supplies that he was using or anything to indicate this. And products like hydrogen peroxide and oxyclean can be used on a variety of things, so how would LE prove the use was unusual and/or used to clean blood from the victims? IDK, ICBW, but I think that if this were something LE was pursuing, we'd have seen evidence of that on the list of items they took.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

could be receipts for cleaning chemicals or other evidence he had purchased them..
this was carefully planned and premeditated.
damn sure there will be a trail.

Yes. LE could have found evidence of purchases of vinegar and hydrogen peroxide right before the murders. JMO.

8 Common Items That Remove Blood Stains

 

[Helechawagirl]

Thanks. So the State wouldn't be allowed to present that to a jury.

I don't like that. I would like the jury to decide what weight to give it. JMO.

Prosecution might use it to paint a scenario or to explain why no victims blood was found in the apt. If there is BK DNA evidence from the crime scene, the apt. results would become irrelevant. I wouldn’t know where to look for his DNA at King Street. Maybe Kaylee or Xana got some scratches in unless he was wearing gloves? Maybe fibers from his clothing? Sweat on a victim’s body or hair or skin cells. Idk. I tend to think he cleaned up somewhere else after the crime. JMO

 

[jepop]

oh yes.
If they find traces of something like H2O2 all over his home in places where it could not possibly have any other use..
Remember the case of YinYinZhang?
Gallons upon gallons upon gallons of bleach, industrial cleaner and even a maintenance call complaining about mold.
fed DP case.
anyways I think it's moot because there is no evidence he killed anybody in his own apartment unless he's being investigated for other crimes too..
that is a possibility.. of course, it is..

MOO, one possibility and please note this is pure speculation, if prosecution produces financial evidence that BK purchased cleaning stuff on or around 13th November (if for instance, it was cleaning products, especially perhaps car cleaning products, shower draino and that sort of thing) then in conjunction with the totality of other evidence being presented, this could be suggestive. MOO. As an aside, per PCA we know BK made some purchases in Clarkson early afternoon Nov 13th, then at around 5.30 to 8.30pm his phone disconnects in the vicinity of Johnston Idaho, which is a relatively remote and rural area south of Pullman. LE, IMO, know what BK's purchases were in Clarkson...if they included cleaning products then perhaps there is an inference to be drawn there as to what he was doing in the Johnson area (again only in conjuction with the totality of potential evidence). MOO, but I doubt the defendant would have cleaned his car post crime in the parking lot of Steptoe Appartments for fear of being noticed.

OTOH, if the defendant was mindful and careful then he may not have purchased cleaning products on that day. He may have done so already elsewhere and possibly using cash. MOO, just some thoughts.

Edited for spelling

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

I don't think it's a stretch if there's evidence supporting the destruction of evidence by buying and using cleaning supplies. JMO.

IF they could prove he used it to destroy evidence. IF. Evidence rules are quite complicated and the suppressing or allowing evidence in error is one of the primary reasons appeals are granted, so very tricky stuff. I'm already watching and waiting for some motions to suppress

 

[jepop]

Thanks. So the State wouldn't be allowed to present that to a jury.

I don't like that. I would like the jury to decide what weight to give it. JMO.

If the defense makes a point that lack of physical evidence is suggestive BK didn't do the crime and/or is somehow exculpatory, would not the prosecution be entitled to address this and counter why it is not necessarily so? MOO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Prosecution might use it to paint a scenario or to explain why no victims blood was found in the apt. If there is BK DNA evidence from the crime scene, the apt. results would become irrelevant. I wouldn’t know where to look for his DNA at King Street. Maybe Kaylee or Xana got some scratches in unless he was wearing gloves? Maybe fibers from his clothing? Sweat on a victim’s body or hair or skin cells. Idk. I tend to think he cleaned up somewhere else after the crime. JMO

I wouldn't be surprised if BK scouted out a dumpster in advance that would be emptied the morning of the murders and got rid of all bloodied clothing before anyone could even look for it.

He may have done a really good job in not bringing any evidence back to his apartment by doing that. JMO.

 

[jjleroche]

I've already asked a lot and I try to stay within the TOS. I think we need more information to ask relevant questions. Otherwise, it's just too random imo.

Thank you

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yes. LE could have found evidence of purchases of vinegar and hydrogen peroxide right before the murders. JMO.

8 Common Items That Remove Blood Stains

And if I were the defense, I'd roll up with:

150 household uses for vinegar

95 Household Vinegar Uses You Never Knew About

Vinegar is for more than just food. Learn about the uses of vinegar you've never thought of, including for cleaning around the house.

www.rd.com

60 amazing uses for hydrogen peroxide

60+ Amazing Hydrogen Peroxide Uses and Benefits

60 fantastic uses and benefits of hydrogen peroxide. From uses for hair, teeth, skin or ear up to health benefits when used as mouthwash or foot soak. Includes various cleaner recipes for cleaning with peroxide and baking soda.

www.tipsbulletin.com

Now if it were industrial-strength blood and dna remover, then that's different because most of us don't buy industrial-strength blood and dna remover for home use...

 

[Deleted member 39678]

IF they could prove he used it to destroy evidence. IF. Evidence rules are quite complicated and the suppressing or allowing evidence in error is one of the primary reasons appeals are granted, so very tricky stuff. I'm already watching and waiting for some motions to suppress

I used the word "If" in my post.

 

[jepop]

So that means this case is going to be dismissed?

Prosecution has responded to the defense's supplemental responses to discovery x2 within the time limits. Links posted in prior posts moved to this new thread. MOO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

And if I were the defense, I'd roll up with:

150 household uses for vinegar

95 Household Vinegar Uses You Never Knew About

Vinegar is for more than just food. Learn about the uses of vinegar you've never thought of, including for cleaning around the house.

www.rd.com

60 amazing uses for hydrogen peroxide

60+ Amazing Hydrogen Peroxide Uses and Benefits

60 fantastic uses and benefits of hydrogen peroxide. From uses for hair, teeth, skin or ear up to health benefits when used as mouthwash or foot soak. Includes various cleaner recipes for cleaning with peroxide and baking soda.

www.tipsbulletin.com

Now if it were industrial-strength blood and dna remover, then that's different because most of us don't buy industrial-strength blood and dna remover for home use...

I'm ready to move on from this since we are just going around in circles.