4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #79

[U.N. Known]

Roommates, early suspects…IMO

I suspect that the real people they are "hiding" are people whose names are not generally known, even if their connection to the case is. The roommates' names have been out there for months, so IMO, keeping their identities secret won't lessen any harassment they may receive.

 

[jepop]

IMO ICBW More complex things ... here are my top examples:

1. warrant for AT&T and not for the victims or BK and completely sealed, not just redacted (warrant and affidavit) on 1.6.23, after BK was in custody:

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823%20Order%20to%20Seal%20-%20ATT.pdf

Why completely seal a warrant for AT&T?

<RSBMff>

This is my take on the sealed AT&T warrant. I see it as linked to the other AT&T warrant that was granted and returned on 23 DEcember.

References to PCA are all from page 16

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/122922%20Affidavit%20-%20Exhibit%20A%20-%20Statement%20of%20Brett-Payne.pdf

1. Sealed AT&T. IMO this is probably the second Warrant LE applied for on 23rd Dec (and returned same day) as per PCA for historical records/ping data relating to BK phone number. The motion and sealing dates are the same as the AT&T 23rd Dec warrant detailed below. That the warrant remains sealed makes sense if it is for all historical data for BK number since opening Acc in June 2022 as per details revealed in PCA. MOO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal - ATT.pdf

-Initial Motion to seal: 6th/7th? Jan 2023.
*interfere with LE proceedings
*invasion of privacy
*Confidential source; and
*Investigative techniques and procedures

-Initial Order to Seal based on Motion: 7th Jan 2023.

- Second Order to Seal: 27 Feb 2023.
*Disclose investigative techniques and procedures
*Intimate facts or statements

2. Sealed and Redacted AT&T. IMO, extremely likely to be AT&T Warrant of 23rd Dec 2022 as referred to in PCA, for data for 24 hours surrounding murders, for account associated with BK's number. MOO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - ATT 1.pdf

-Served and Returned: 23rd Dec 2023.

"...the AT&T account associated with the phone number...[blank]... between November 12, 2022 at 12:00 am. PST to November 14,2022 at 12:00 am. PST. Information should include user accomt information, location data,and stored communications held by AT&T, described in further detail as follows..."

-Return of Inventory notified to Court: 6 Jan 2023.

-Initial Motion to Seal: 6th/7th? Jan 2023
*interfere with LE proceedings
*invasion of privacy
*Confidential source; and
*Investigative techniques and procedures

-Initial Order to Seal based on Motion: 7th Jan 2023

-Order to Seal and Redact: 27 Feb 2023.
*Intimate facts or Statements
*Preserve Right to a fair trial.

Another reason why I'm speculating the Sealed AT&T Warrant (number1 above) is probably the historical BK phone data warrant referred to in the PCA, is because that return inventory (If I am correct) would contain details of the at least 12 Pings referred to in the PCA, perhaps including time ranges and dates that investigators chose not to reveal in the PCA. This would make partial sense of the reasons given for the warrant to remain totally sealed and not simply redacted ie protect investigative techniques and procedure, protect LE proceedings etc. MOO

Also there is no other warrant for AT&T listed (apart from the geo-fence warrant served on 30th Dec) and the PCA makes clear LE applied for two warrants from AT&T re BK's number on 23rd Dec. MOO

EBM to fix link to PCA
EBM bolded word last sentence.

 

[jjleroche]

Thank you @gliving

I have enormous respect for all the victims' parents. Every. Single. One. However they decide to proceed.
They have had to deal with the rabbit holes, rumors, wild speculation, and insinuation via the Internet while trying to live with the deepest grief possible. If someone can't understand a parent speaking out in these circumstances, be thankful. I could still hear the pain in Steve Goncalves' voice today. Monday when seats are being filled by the families, Moms, Dads, or siblings, (I think I will get started on the Dads first) I will be yelling at them in my loudest voice, "You can do this. You will find the strength. You got this." Yes, I will start with the Dads.

Real life "nutters" live in this world where free speech is too often taken as a right to be cruel. They take ball bats or worse to people they never met, people they read about on the Internet or heard about. People they just plain don't agree with. They hate an idea and go to kill the person. They hate period. I don't need to know the nutters' names; their aftermath in the news tells me they exist.

The grand jury had the same outcome I believe the Prelim would have; that being there is enough proof to charge BK with the murders and proceed to trial. Selfishly I wanted to hear the evidence at Prelim. Now I have to wait for the trial. What, maybe a year? IMO Thompson has a strategy and probably a better criminal mind than BK. Possible but doubtful there was only one reason connected to that GJ. I don't get to know why. All the evidence has not been released to the public from either side.


I respect we all have differing opinions, different backgrounds, speculations, beliefs. Call it what you want. It's somebody's voice. This is mine.

My speculation only. Random thoughts on reads today.

JMO, IMO, MOO
edit tyypo

Magnificent post. Especially the first paragraph, which got me tearing up. Bravo!

 

[jepop]

This is my take on the sealed AT&T warrant. I see it as linked to the other AT&T warrant that was granted and returned on 23 DEcember.

References to PCA are all from page 16

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/122922%20Affidavit%20-%20Exhibit%20A%20-%20Statement%20of%20Brett-Payne.pdf

1. Sealed AT&T. IMO this is probably the second Warrant LE applied for on 23rd Dec (and returned same day) as per PCA for historical records/ping data relating to BK phone number. The motion and sealing dates are the same as the AT&T 23rd Dec warrant detailed below. That the warrant remains sealed makes sense if it is for all historical data for BK number since opening Acc in June 2022 as per details revealed in PCA. MOO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal - ATT.pdf

-Initial Motion to seal: 6th/7th? Jan 2023.
*interfere with LE proceedings
*invasion of privacy
*Confidential source; and
*Investigative techniques and procedures

-Initial Order to Seal based on Motion: 7th Jan 2023.

- Second Order to Seal: 27 Feb 2023.
*Disclose investigative techniques and procedures
*Intimate facts or statements

2. Sealed and Redacted AT&T. IMO, extremely likely to be AT&T Warrant of 23rd Dec 2022 as referred to in PCA, for data for 24 hours surrounding murders, for account associated with BK's number. MOO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - ATT 1.pdf

-Served and Returned: 23rd Dec 2023.

"...the AT&T account associated with the phone number...[blank]... between November 12, 2022 at 12:00 am. PST to November 14,2022 at 12:00 am. PST. Information should include user accomt information, location data,and stored communications held by AT&T, described in further detail as follows..."

-Return of Inventory notified to Court: 6 Jan 2023.

-Initial Motion to Seal: 6th/7th? Jan 2023
*interfere with LE proceedings
*invasion of privacy
*Confidential source; and
*Investigative techniques and procedures

-Initial Order to Seal based on Motion: 7th Jan 2023

-Order to Seal and Redact: 27 Feb 2023.
*Intimate facts or Statements
*Preserve Right to a fair trial.

Another reason why I'm speculating the Sealed AT&T Warrant (number1 above) is probably the historical BK phone data warrant referred to in the PCA, is because that return inventory (If I am correct) would contain details of the at least 12 Pings referred to in the PCA, perhaps including time ranges and dates that investigators chose not to reveal in the PCA. This would make partial sense of the reasons given for the warrant to remain totally sealed and not simply redacted ie protect investigative techniques and procedure, protect LE proceedings etc. MOO

Also there is no other warrant for AT&T listed (apart from the geo-fence warrant served on 30th Dec) and the PCA makes clear LE applied for two warrants from AT&T re BK's number on 23rd Dec. MOO

EBM to fix link to PCA
EBM bolded word last sentence.

Just correcting a date in post above as too late to edit. Last paragraph, geo-fence warrant for AT&T was served 17 Nov, not 30 Dec.

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823%20Order%20to%20Seal%20and%20Redact%20-%20ATT.pdf

 

[maskedwoman]

No.

As I posted earlier, there are multiple reasons the Dad thought also this was the best option.

As @BUF commented earlier the superseding indictment means the accused quadruple murderer will not have a chance to attack the evidence used to arrest him at a preliminary hearing that had been scheduled.

But, most importantly it also spares the two surviving housemates and other potential witnesses from having to testify under cross-examination prior to trial.

I'll concede that it's possible they have a weak case, although I certainly hope that is NOT the situation. It think it's more likely that there is some evidence not yet available from the FBI. I would also think both sides are glad to keep the public from getting a peek at the evidence and have it discussed and analyzed ad nauseum, then twisted into something bearing little resemblance to the truth, in front of potential jurors.

 

[arielilane]

Good morning, Y'all, for anyone that may have missed this from last night:

#BryanKohberger’s grand jury indictment means there is no preliminary hearing in the #IdahoFour case, which could have included witness testimony ahead of the trial.
@TVAshleigh talks to Kaylee Goncalves’ father about the news. More: https://trib.al/a5QdSSH #Banfield

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659046780393390082

 

[maskedwoman]

MSN

Waiving its rights to a speedy trial was a "big gamble" that didn't bode well for the defense, Coffindaffer said.

Former FBI Agent Jennifer Coffindaffer said the decision to convene a grand jury likely stemmed from Kohberger's decision to waive his right to a speedy trial. By doing so, the defense gave the prosecution time to gather a grand jury—a loss for the defense, according to Coffindaffer.

"I thought it was a huge mistake at the time, it opens the door for the grand jury," Coffindaffer told Newsweek.

It's unclear when the defense found out about the grand jury, as Coffindaffer said it's conducted in "complete silence."

Most times, the legal defense prefers a preliminary hearing, which allows them the opportunity to cross examine witnesses and hear evidence from the prosecution. With a grand jury, the defense isn't even in the room. The chances of the grand jury determining probable cause are high.

I wish I had more confidence in Ms.Coffindaffer's thoughts about the judicial proceedings. She just keeps saying things that strike me poorly thought out. GJ's are conducted in secret, not silence. She clearly had a stellar career in law inforcement, but I would really like to some of these shows put a former prosecutor on to comment.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Could there be an undercover operation going on in Moscow?

Yes, it's very possible, IMO. I've been questioning this from the time SGH did her first deep dive into the warrants. IMO, this is much more than an infatuation/rejection murder. BK may be the killer, but I think there was something going on that involved many others, which is why the gag order was supported by the prosecution and why so many documents were redacted and sealed. It's also one reason I think the prosecution went for a GJ, to protect those individuals who were unfortunately drawn into this mess. MOO

 

[schooling]

I don't know if the issue is who will pay for the proceedings.

But under our system, the idea is that public trials keep the government honest. Frankly, the way this case has been handled so far shows us why. I realize the Kohberger case doesn't strike us as particularly political, but imagine if he were black!

I tend to agree with you, Isabella, but I assume you are an American as am I. Under the British system--with a democracy much older than ours--almost all pre-trial publicity is banned. The public has to wait until the actual trial to learn what is happening in court. (As I understand it.)

As a black person, I’m imagining. And I still don’t see anything wrong with what’s been done. His defense attorneys should have known the risks and that this was a possibility. He himself has had the privilege of studying law and likely played a big part in the decision.

They all miscalculated.

Prosecutors want justice and they are pulling the widely known and recognized levers that are available to them. It’s explicitly listed in the constitution.

Nothing here looks or smells like misconduct of any kind.

 

[SpiderFalcon]

I respect what you're saying here. IMO, I think the prosecution's answer to the 3rd discovery motion, and also, the Motion to Compel, says that they DO HAVE the evidence, and that they have turned it over. It was a massive amount of evidence, IIRC. I have started wondering more, WHO IS BEING PROTECTED, since they did that Grand Jury indictment. I had vaguely wondered that before, since the gag order, but now I really do. All of those orders to seal say:

View attachment 422957

OR:

View attachment 422958
IMO, that could have been done to protect ANYONE, including, but not limited to: the murder victims, the living victims, the perpetrator, anyone they investigated (DD driver, friends, Rideshare person, etc.)

Do you have any thoughts about whether that could be?

REPOST

 

[arielilane]

Update in Bryan Kohberger case raises question about witnesses

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659126533171060736

Update in Bryan Kohberger case raises question about witn...

"Some of those people, you never know what they're capable of," former FBI agent Jennifer Coffindaffer told Newsweek.

www.newsweek.com

On the same day that accused Idaho murder suspect Bryan Kohberger was indicted by a grand jury, the state issued an order sealing the names of witnesses who have testified in the case.

Kohberger, 28, is accused of fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students—Kaylee Goncalves, 21, Madison Mogen, 21, Xana Kernodle, 20, and Ethan Chapin, 20—in the early morning hours of November 13 in an off-campus rental home in Moscow, Idaho.

Charged with one felony count of burglary and four felony counts of murder in the first degree, he is expected to enter his plea at 9 a.m. Monday, Shanon Gray, an attorney for the Goncalves family, confirmed to Newsweek.

According to the motion made Wednesday and signed by prosecuting attorney William Thompson, the Third Judicial Court in the county of Latah has reportedly received numerous complaints from potential or prospective witnesses, as well as families and associates, regarding being harassed both in person and via social media—in addition to threats and what appears to be intimidation.

"Given this, and the broad publicity surrounding these proceedings, the State respectfully submits that releasing the names of the witness who appeared before the grand jury would invite additional harassment, intimidation and possible threats, and undermine not only the integrity of this case, but the parties' prospective rights to a fair trial with an impartial jury," the motion states.

The sealing of witnesses was agreed upon by Kohberger's defense counsel and also approved Wednesday.

 

[NyxNY]

DBM. Decided my post was too speculative.

 

[Pitsleuth]

The clown/wizard doll in that one picture is beyond creepy.

I wanted to comment on this but wasn’t sure if it would be allowed. It jumped right out at me… such a weird choice.

 

[Wallendo]

I don't quite get the complaints about defense miscalculations. The defense in this case will need time to evaluate all the evidence, discuss strategies to exclude or downplay the evidence, develop alternative theories, obtain adequate experts, and so forth. I suspect a speedy trial could be beneficial to the prosecution or the defense. My suspicion is that BK doesn't have a good alibi for the time of the murders and the two eyewitnesses don't have a good description of the perp, and that technical evidence will be necessary, and it will take a lot of time for both sides to make their cases.

As for the secrecy about witnesses. One factor is likely the rise of internet sleuths (not from the forum) who dox any person named in the press or seen on video. In this case, we know about the bartender, several men at the food truck, the rideshare driver, the door dash driver, and the ex-BF. On less restrictive sites, person even more peripherally involved have been doxed. Another factor is likely that the early warrants were very nonspecific. A geo-fence warrant, for example, would identify hundreds or thousands of uninvolved persons minding their own business driving in their cars. Cell phone warrants would catch many people making or receiving calls from the suspect's, victim's, or witnesses's phones.

 

[arielilane]

The indictment allows prosecutors to skip a planned week-long preliminary hearing that was set for late June.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659121665664483328

Grand jury indicts man in 4 University of Idaho stabbing deaths, eliminating need for hearing

A grand jury has indicted a man who was already charged in the stabbing deaths of four University of Idaho students, allowing prosecutors to skip a planned week-long preliminary hearing

www.kxly.com

 

[arielilane]

Shanon Gray said this indictment is good news the judicial process is moving forward, but the time it took to get here hasn’t been easy on Kaylee Goncalves' family.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659061267200454656

Goncalves family attorney reacts to Moscow murder suspect's grand jury indictment

Shanon Gray said this indictment is good news the judicial process is moving forward, but the time it took to get here hasn’t been easy on Kaylee Goncalves' family.

www.krem.com

SPOKANE, Wash. — It's been four months since Moscow murder suspect Bryan Kohberger appeared in court.
It's also been four months since attorney Shanon Gray addressed dozens of media correspondents, following the court appearance.
"It’s obviously an emotional time for the family seeing the defendant for the first time," Gray said back in January. "This is the beginning of the criminal justice system and the family will be here for the long haul.”

The next step in the "long haul" is coming sooner than expected.
Wednesday, a grand jury indicted the murder suspect, moving his next court date to May 22.

 

[jepop]

This is my take on the sealed AT&T warrant. I see it as linked to the other AT&T warrant that was granted and returned on 23 DEcember.

References to PCA are all from page 16

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/122922%20Affidavit%20-%20Exhibit%20A%20-%20Statement%20of%20Brett-Payne.pdf

1. Sealed AT&T. IMO this is probably the second Warrant LE applied for on 23rd Dec (and returned same day) as per PCA for historical records/ping data relating to BK phone number. The motion and sealing dates are the same as the AT&T 23rd Dec warrant detailed below. That the warrant remains sealed makes sense if it is for all historical data for BK number since opening Acc in June 2022 as per details revealed in PCA. MOO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal - ATT.pdf

-Initial Motion to seal: 6th/7th? Jan 2023.
*interfere with LE proceedings
*invasion of privacy
*Confidential source; and
*Investigative techniques and procedures

-Initial Order to Seal based on Motion: 7th Jan 2023.

- Second Order to Seal: 27 Feb 2023.
*Disclose investigative techniques and procedures
*Intimate facts or statements

2. Sealed and Redacted AT&T. IMO, extremely likely to be AT&T Warrant of 23rd Dec 2022 as referred to in PCA, for data for 24 hours surrounding murders, for account associated with BK's number. MOO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal and Redact - ATT 1.pdf

-Served and Returned: 23rd Dec 2023.

"...the AT&T account associated with the phone number...[blank]... between November 12, 2022 at 12:00 am. PST to November 14,2022 at 12:00 am. PST. Information should include user accomt information, location data,and stored communications held by AT&T, described in further detail as follows..."

-Return of Inventory notified to Court: 6 Jan 2023.

-Initial Motion to Seal: 6th/7th? Jan 2023
*interfere with LE proceedings
*invasion of privacy
*Confidential source; and
*Investigative techniques and procedures

-Initial Order to Seal based on Motion: 7th Jan 2023

-Order to Seal and Redact: 27 Feb 2023.
*Intimate facts or Statements
*Preserve Right to a fair trial.

Another reason why I'm speculating the Sealed AT&T Warrant (number1 above) is probably the historical BK phone data warrant referred to in the PCA, is because that return inventory (If I am correct) would contain details of the at least 12 Pings referred to in the PCA, perhaps including time ranges and dates that investigators chose not to reveal in the PCA. This would make partial sense of the reasons given for the warrant to remain totally sealed and not simply redacted ie protect investigative techniques and procedure, protect LE proceedings etc. MOO

Also there is no other warrant for AT&T listed (apart from the geo-fence warrant served on 30th Dec) and the PCA makes clear LE applied for two warrants from AT&T re BK's number on 23rd Dec. MOO

EBM to fix link to PCA
EBM bolded word last sentence.

Something else I want to point out with regard to the second (No 2 above) warrant served on AT&T. I think what this warrant tells us is that we can't assume that a redacated warrant that does not name BK, necessarily means that it doesn't concern him. The redacted AT&T warrant served 23 Dec almost certainly has to be the one mentioned by the Affiant in the PCA for data connected to BK's phone number during the 24 hours surrounding the crimes. Yet the warrant is redacted so neither BK's name or phone number are visible. MOO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823%20Order%20to%20Seal%20and%20Redact%20-%20ATT%201.pdf

Some warrants do name BK specifically, but in this case he is not named. Yet per PCA, logic says that this is one of the two 23 Dec warrants related to BK's provider. In a way, I think we're lucky to have this clue thanks to the PCA (which besides the AT&T warrants only refers generally to several geo-fence warrants). MOO it is something to keep in mind when speculating and thinking about what may be behind some of the warrants and the connections between them.

 

[maskedwoman]

I have thought this from the beginning. There appears to be a drug connection whether it is related to people living at the house or those visiting or even watching it. I wonder if part of the targeting was financial, theft, or even related to the purchase of the vehicle. Could it have had (unknowingly) contraband hidden inside? What is the vehicle backstory? In the process of the targeting, did the infatuation occur and the messaging start?

Four people don't just get murdered arbitrarily. There has to be more going on than meets the eye and, IMO, redacting witnesses names and even the grand jury process sort of points to something much larger (at least as background). I don't think there's any evidence of this that has been brought forward. Pure speculation.

I know that many young people are casual drug users, but I don't see drugs being at the heart of the murders. IMO. From what I have read, drug related crimes are generally either to pay for a habit, focused on getting a message across to someone or eliminating someone as quickly as possible. Like competition or a witness.

Since we haven't heard that valuables were missing, I think an addict is an unlikely perp. And I don't see drug dealers stabbing multiple people across a house and risk being overpowerd. Shooting is much quicker and there is almost no risk of being on the losing end of a fight. And, if there was a juicy secret to be told, I would be dumfounded that not one single person in the victims' circle of friends or acquaintances failed to blab and grab their 15 minutes of fame/infamy.

OTOH, Moscow is a small department and this was a huge investigation. I have wondered if a narcotics officer might have helped with the investigation, and then testified for something. I'm sure they would want that person's identity to remain secret, for their own safety. MOOooo

 

[10ofRods]

Besides phone experts, DNA experts, etc. there are also expert eyewwitness witnesses. The new attorney for BK (Massoth) worked with a well-known eyewitness expert witness in an earlier case.

When I listed witnesses, I was speaking only of the already-concluded Grand Jury, not the witnesses at trial, just to be clear.

The sealing of the names makes me think it's possible that DM was one of them, but who knows? At any rate, that attorney would have been hired after the GJ was already convened.

IIMO

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Will Judge John Judge preside over the prospective trial or are trial Judges drawn after arraignment? IMO this current Judge is Judge by name, judge by nature.

Not sure, honestly. I haven't followed the Daybell-Vallow case very closely, which is the only other current murder case in Idaho that could provide an example of judge selection.

Perhaps Judge John Judge is just presiding over the arraignment, or presided over the GJ and so is signing off on the court orders leading to the arraignment.

I'm guessing based on watching other cases that by the time there is a prospective trial, things could be different in terms of which judge is available and best qualified or suited for the type of trial it will be, but don't know, and the Idaho Criminal (ETA: and Administrative) Rules available online don't seem that specific.

JMO