4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 72

[Nova]

Agree. Pretty sad to hear his Dad proudly tell the officer his son was a PhD student.

I found it odd when the father told the officer, "My son is a student at WSU." As if a cop in the Great Lakes Midwest would automatically know the dad meant Washington State.

Pullman is by no means the only "WSU". There's Weber State U. in Utah, and an entire system of Wisconsin State Universities. Wayne State and Wright State are both near Indiana, the former in Detroit and the latter in Dayton.
Yet Mr. K assumed the officer would know he meant Washington State, even though it was almost 1,500 miles away and much farther than a number of other "WSUs".

I doubt this proves anything but Mr. K's lack of sophistication and knowledge of higher education. No wonder he was proud his son was in a Ph.D. program!

 

[jepop]

True, but the search warrant has to include specifics between place to be searched, things or person to be seized, and nexus to crime. They can't just search for whatevs. In this case, the search warrant includes '5. limited to dark shirt(s),dark pant(s), mask(s),shoes with diamond pattern sole." This is one reason why, IMO JMO, the PCA would have included the best possible evidence re the shoe print, not the weakest link in the chain, and one of the reasons for my questions about how one latent print, only found on second pass appeared in the PCA and no others. If they had better evidence, they'd have brought it instead of this fairly lame (no pun intended) piece imo jmo. I have theories, but so far, nothing more IMO JMO

search warrant

www.law.cornell.edu

Kohberger warrant

www.documentcloud.org

Please, I have to correct you here. I'm semi-familiar with the search warrant for BK's residence. What it actually says is this, p2 of 4. "

"4. Clothing, including but not limited to dark shirt( s), dark pant (s), mask (s ) , shoes withdiamond pattern sole."

NOT
"'5. limited to dark shirt(s),dark pant(s), mask(s),shoes with diamond pattern sole." as above in your post.

You left out the words "including but not" to in your post and I think that changes the meaning of what the search was limited to and to the premise in your post. I think we need to be careful about indavertently misleading and misinforming. MOO

Fuller quote below.

"...2. Seize, iflocated, evidenceofthe above- listed crimes, including:
1. Blood, or other bodily fluid or human tissue or skin cells , or items with blood or other
bodily fluid or human tissue or skin cells on the items.
2. Knives, sheaths , or other sharp tools , including any dagger , dirk , or sword, and any written
indicia of ownership of same , including sales receipts.
3. Any images, whether digital or on paper or any other format , which show Ethan Chapin ,
Kaylee Goncalves , Xana Kernodle, Madison Mogen and/or
and/ or the house at 1122 King Road , Moscow , ID and/ or the surrounding
neighborhood.
4. Clothing, including but not limited to dark shirt( s), dark pant (s), mask (s ) , shoes withdiamond pattern sole.
5. Trace evidence including DNA from blood or skin cells or other source , footprints ,
fingerprints , hair (whether human or animal/ dog)...."

My copy of Search Warrant and Application for Search Warrant. I checked. Both pages 2/4 in mine and in your cloud document match. They are the same document.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/search%20warrant%20for%20bryan%20kohberger%20apartment/ddb059f6cc8e24c1/full.pdf

edited spelling

 

[Charlot123]

I still can't wrap my mind around that an (alleged) murderous maniac worked as TA with students at university, and mind you, in Criminology field.

As TA - sexist, unfair, patronising, passive-aggressive, making girls uncomfortable.

What kind of example did he set to students?

What does it say about this university and its teaching staff?
Didn't he ridicule them??

And what about a professor at another university, who wrote a book "How to catch a serial killer"?
Isn't it ironic??

Well, it seems theoretical knowledge does NOT necessarily mean practical wisdom.

Not very inspiring for young people who pay lots of money to gain this knowledge

JMO

I am not surprised at all.

What do we usually hear from neighbors/coworkers when these murderers are finally caught? “Oh, he was the nicest guy on the block, he saved my (relative’s) life, he was active in the church, we are totally shocked…”.

And as to the professor, she probably saw a student who read her book and was interested in the subject. I understand how she could “miss the vibes”. I totally understand how the university could have missed it, after all, his background check probably came back clean.

My personal observation, people who usually get bad vibes in such cases are young women, of the type he’d like to date/hunt. They are the ones to comment on “the guy giving them creeps”. So of the whole criminology academia, a young, pretty office manager would potentially have the best chance of “stopping” BK from entering the program, but no one asks these girls what they think of applicants, and maybe the whole initial conversation with BK was online.

 

[Nova]

Here,upthread not far, someone posted about PCAs and how they are constructed, in a generic/legal sense I think. Haven't had a chance to read and absorb that post yet. Your point about committees is interesting. Committee of involved and perhaps specialist LE, experienced in PCA writing (speculation only) perhaps? (and probably very familar with the investigation in an overall sense)? I'm not meant to be here right now, but will probably have to look this up now!

edited spelling

I'm sure it varies by jurisdiction. But it wouldn't surprise me--IANAL and this is IMHO--if one person wrote the cell phone info while another addressed the security tape sightings of the Elantra, and yet another interviewed and summarized DM's testimony.

I'm not saying the effort wasn't supervised by the DA and reviewed by the signer before the PCA was filed. I'm sure it was.

But when we treat the PCA as if it were the Rosetta Stone, I'm not sure we're doing ourselves any favors. THIS IS NOT A REBUTTAL to jepop or any other poster. However, when I see numerous posts about this word choice v. that one, I recall all the times when I was handed legal briefs and told to rewrite them to make sense of the language, even though I had no knowledge of the case or evidence.

 

[maskedwoman]

Odd that he left his fire stick and computer tower behind. Maybe to lead his father into believing things were okay>

Dunno. Not even an opinion, really, just a question.

IMO>

Maybe he never thought they would actually fire him? The human mind's ability to delude itself can be pretty remarkable. I've seen people who made no pretense of even attempting to learn or do the job they were hired for, and then be genuinely stunned and sometimes angry when invited to leave. Or maybe things had fallen so thoroughly apart that he couldn't think of anything to do but pretend everything was fine.

 

[Dotta]

I am not surprised at all.

What do we usually hear from neighbors/coworkers when these murderers are finally caught? “Oh, he was the nicest guy on the block, he saved my (relative’s) life, he was active in the church, we are totally shocked…”.

But...

The thing is he was NOT!!!! "the nicest guy on the block".

He was a walking, talking RED FLAG

Tell you what,
I studied at the state university in my city, not the fanciest, just regular

but....

the teaching staff was TOP NOTCH - from TAs to professors.
They were up to the mark, with the highest standards both moral and academic.

One day of such boorish, primitive behaviour towards students as BK exhibited would be one day too many!

JMO

 

[maskedwoman]

Opinion:

Several of us are on the same page. His nocturnal habits didn't start at age 28+, when he moved to Pullman (where he annoys the neighbors with being awake and very active at night; even going running in the middle of the night). He's nocturnal.

And I asked yesterday where people think he got his money for heroin. It's not cheap. His parents gave him an allowance? He has had **no known jobs,** ever - until TA'ing. Journalists digging for more info on BK every day, but no employment history (because he had none). So where does the money for the heroin come from?

IMO.

If someone can post his employment history, I'd be much obliged.

Addicts often steal from family to support their habit. Maybe he did, too. That, and their efforts to help him become a healthy person, could largely explain his parents long-term financial problems.

I suspect we may learn that BK's family life was far more complicated than it appears right now. There are certain elements of BK's situation that remind me of Casey Anthony. She created her own parallel universe by concocting an entire fake work life and stole money from her parents to support her lifestyle of partying. Her mother HAD to have known where the money was going, but clearly deluded herself for her own reasons. I'm sure in part, she did it for Caylee. And, based on a teaser for her interview, apparently continues to delude herself to this day. Probably because it's easier than accepting that her daughter murdered that beautiful little girl. IMO

BK didn't have Casey's charm, or friends to party with. And nearly everyone who came into contact with BK found him strange and unnerving. We all know he had few friends, no girlfriends. He was derisive, condescending and lots of other unpleasant adjectives. But he too, seems to have created his own parallel universe, worked no real job, and lived something of a shadow life. Literally watching from the shadows as other people actually lived. Yet, his parents either somehow deluded themselves he was doing well and finally on his way, or they had given up and waited with dread for the next shoe to fall. MOOooo

 

[Nila Aella]

They wouldn't know that any of the bloody prints they may have found matched BK's size. Now that they have searched his apartment and got his shoes at time of arrest, they can see if any prints match his size. Even if a bloody print matches his size it doesn't prove he wore the shoes.

I've been following a murder case where bloody shoe prints were found and the shoes were never recovered but LE found a receipt and Walmart video of the mother buying those same exact type of shoes for her sons to wear to the murder scenes.

Just having evidence that BK bought shoes that match prints at the crime scene would be circumstantial evidence.

If the prosecution finds any evidence that may damage their case, evidence that would be favorable to BK, it has to be turned over to the defense. Doesn't have to be in a PCA, but does need to go to the defense.the prosecution turn over exculpatory evidence.

Re: the prosecution handing over exculpatory evidence.

I would hope they would hand it over, and promptly. However, I wonder if LE found something exculpatory, are they required to hand it over to the prosecutor or can they file it under "current investigation" protection? If they do hand it over to the prosecutor, how quickly is he required to provide it to the defense and does he provide it openly or inserted in thousands of pages? Can the exculpatory evidence be filed under "work product" and non disclosable?

IMO The defense has to go searching for it.

JMO

 

[NCWatcher]

(BTW, there is incredible cultural difference between the coasts, and migration from E to W might be objectively difficult, for many. Which of course doesn’t condone being rude or misogynistic or trying to ascertain yourself instead of spreading the knowledge, what BK was expected to do).


I can get the financial details tomorrow, but yes, it seemed to be inexpensive. Also, and I’d like to get people’s opinion, but mine is, TA is not a prerequisite for a Ph.D., merely a way to support oneself if there is no other, such as, indeed, a good summer internship, for example.

BBM

Well, that seems to sort of be true.
But some doctoral programs won't admit self-pay students. (One concern is that working an outside job may lead to failure in the program. And attrition is bad for the program especially with speciality accreditors.) So if an RA/TA isn't available admission isn't offered.

Regardless, this is a blurb from WSU.

"Teaching/Research
In addition to the course requirements, each student in the Ph.D. program is required to have formal teaching and/or research experience in an institution of higher learning before receiving the Ph.D. degree. Serving as a teaching assistant in the Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology satisfies this teaching requirement. Collecting original data also fulfills this requirement." Doctor of Philosophy in Criminal Justice and Criminology | Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology | Washington State University

Honestly the blurb doesn't make much sense to me. Is it saying it's possible to earn a Ph.D in the Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology WITHOUT collecting original data? Some people on WS made a big deal of the kind of thesis BK did. Personally I thought it was not a big deal. COVID, master's level, not knowing what any other students in the program did...no biggie. But a doctoral degree? Maybe it's saying theoretical dissertations are ok? Or maybe a meta-analysis of existing findings?

Of course, one might be able to argue BK DID serve as a TA. He wasn't fired until after the semester ended and the above blurb doesn't say served "successfully" (nor does it say the collected original data has to be analyzed much less disseminated in any way.) I do wonder what that requirement really means.

JMO

 

[NCWatcher]

Re: the prosecution handing over exculpatory evidence.

I would hope they would hand it over, and promptly. However, I wonder if LE found something exculpatory, are they required to hand it over to the prosecutor or can they file it under "current investigation" protection? If they do hand it over to the prosecutor, how quickly is he required to provide it to the defense and does he provide it openly or inserted in thousands of pages? Can the exculpatory evidence be filed under "work product" and non disclosable?

IMO The defense has to go searching for it.

JMO

Unethical prosecutors do try to hide exculpatory evidence. Fortunately some do caught, fired and later are disbarred. Sometimes though trial outcomes are changed.

I do hope this DA's office doesn't try to actually hide evidence. (Making it hard to find is part of the game both sides play like listing lots of extra witnesses to create extra work.) I wouldn't think once a case is going to trial actual evidence related to the case could be called a non-disclosable work product. But I'm not an attorney and I'm sure there are lots of ways to cheat. I can't say I have sympathy for the cheaters though whether they are attorneys or rank and file LE.
JMO

 

[ag513]

Maybe he never thought they would actually fire him? The human mind's ability to delude itself can be pretty remarkable. I've seen people who made no pretense of even attempting to learn or do the job they were hired for, and then be genuinely stunned and sometimes angry when invited to leave. Or maybe things had fallen so thoroughly apart that he couldn't think of anything to do but pretend everything was fine.

This is not totally in direct response to maskedwoman’s post, but I’ve fallen a bit behind in keeping up with these threads and I’ve seen many posts that seem to presume that because he was fired from his TA position, he was also therefore kicked out of the PhD program at the same time. Do we actually know this? Often a TA position provides funding for the PhD (i.e., covers the student’s tuition) and gives the student a small stipend for living expenses. Students without an assistantship (i.e., Teaching Assistant or Research Assistant position) have to self-fund their studies. Do we know if he was actually kicked out of the entire PhD program at the time (before he was arrested), or did he simply lose his assistantship at that time?

I would presume that even if he were fired as a TA, he would’ve been allowed to carry on as a student in the program provided he could self-fund (i.e., take out student loans). It’s very difficult to kick a student out of an academic program without clear violation of a university rule or unless the student exhibits poor academic performance over a sustained period of time. As a faculty member I’ve dealt with numerous cases of plagiarism, male students creeping female students out and sending inappropriate texts/private messages, & students found to have committed sexual misconduct before they were enrolled at the university. I also once had a student targeting me personally (as a faculty member) with explicit private messages that were totally inappropriate and creepy. Couldn’t kick any of them out. Some plagiarism or cheating cases, yes, but typically an ethics board gives them a second chance if they’re a first-time offender. In PhD programs, if you want a student gone it’s tough to do that until they reach their qualifying exams, which is usually after 2 years of their PhD study. At that point if you don’t believe they should carry on, you fail them in quals and they don’t continue.

All of this is to say I don’t think he was actually kicked out of his PhD program (pre-arrest) unless someone can point us to a source saying that he was? I think he fully intended on going back to WSU after the Christmas break and carrying on with his PhD, even if that meant he’d have to take out student loans to do it. I don’t think he thought he’d ever be caught for the crimes he committed.

JMO

 

[ag513]

BBM

Well, that seems to sort of be true.
But some doctoral programs won't admit self-pay students. (One concern is that working an outside job may lead to failure in the program. And attrition is bad for the program especially with speciality accreditors.) So if an RA/TA isn't available admission isn't offered.

Regardless, this is a blurb from WSU.

"Teaching/Research
In addition to the course requirements, each student in the Ph.D. program is required to have formal teaching and/or research experience in an institution of higher learning before receiving the Ph.D. degree. Serving as a teaching assistant in the Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology satisfies this teaching requirement. Collecting original data also fulfills this requirement." Doctor of Philosophy in Criminal Justice and Criminology | Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology | Washington State University

Honestly the blurb doesn't make much sense to me. Is it saying it's possible to earn a Ph.D in the Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology WITHOUT collecting original data? Some people on WS made a big deal of the kind of thesis BK did. Personally I thought it was not a big deal. COVID, master's level, not knowing what any other students in the program did...no biggie. But a doctoral degree? Maybe it's saying theoretical dissertations are ok? Or maybe a meta-analysis of existing findings?

Of course, one might be able to argue BK DID serve as a TA. He wasn't fired until after the semester ended and the above blurb doesn't say served "successfully" (nor does it say the collected original data has to be analyzed much less disseminated in any way.) I do wonder what that requirement really means.

JMO

I agree, the wording is vague. Probably purposefully so to give them some leeway with their PhD students and how they can attain these teaching/research experiences.

My personal interpretation of the collecting original data part is that a student could work as a Research Assistant (RA) under a professor and help with data collection for the professor’s research, which would give them supervised experience in data collection, which they’d definitely need when they work on their own dissertation. I may be wrong, but that’s how I would interpret it. JMO

 

[NCWatcher]

I agree, the wording is vague. Probably purposefully so to give them some leeway with their PhD students and how they can attain these teaching/research experiences.

My personal interpretation of the collecting original data part is that a student could work as a Research Assistant (RA) under a professor and help with data collection for the professor’s research, which would
give them supervised experience in data collection, which they’d definitely need when they work on their own dissertation. I may be wrong, but that’s how I would interpret it. JMO

Maybe. If the program will require a research dissertation that's not merely theoretical or a lit review, then some practice in conceiving projects and carrying them out would be needed. And free grad student help is how professors get their research done. So everybody is supposed to benefit from the apprentice model. But if every student has to collect original data for a required dissertation, why have this additional vague requirement about teaching and/or collecting data? (I agree it's probably vague on purpose. And whatever the purpose for making it vague had nothing to with BK!)

 

[Dotta]

"Family of Idaho murder victim could be witnesses against Bryan Kohberger, filings say."​

​

Family of Idaho murder victim could be witnesses

Bryan Kohberger faces four counts of first-degree murder and a felony burglary charge over his alleged role in the brutal murder of four university students

www.express.co.uk

 

[CSIDreamer]

I too have been pondering the question of whether DM will be called to testify. And if she is how the defense might cross examine her. I too hope that in the end the prosecution will decide her testimony is not necessary, or that a sworn affadavit or similar could do instead. But I guess that may not be possible because there is the defense right to cross examination, in terms of "what' she saw and "when" she saw it, IMO. I would feel easier about DM testifying if the defense were directed by judge (or could be objected to on every count by prosecution) from asking her questions outside of what she saw (her description of the stranger) and her timeline of events leading up to that sighting.MOO. Perhaps, if there is phone evidence between DM and BF that helps with time line, that evidence could be entered separately as forensic evidence somehow. Just thoughts and questions. MOO

edited spelling

What if she wants to testify?

I know we have no information either way, but what if she wants to testify? What if she decides this is something she can do for her roommates? I realize she can't demand to testify but she can make herself available. Maybe take some power back. JMO

 

[gizmobtj]

Time of Arrival?

snipped for focus @gizmobtj
Good observation, re big city detectives arriving at crime scene promptly.

Seems occasionally Lt. Detective Friday on Dragnet would show up before the perp left. I think once Columbo arrived before the murder even happened. That's L.A. for ya.
[J/K. Wink]

Thanks for getting that Columbo reference in there. It warmed my heart

 

[maskedwoman]

This is not totally in direct response to maskedwoman’s post, but I’ve fallen a bit behind in keeping up with these threads and I’ve seen many posts that seem to presume that because he was fired from his TA position, he was also therefore kicked out of the PhD program at the same time. Do we actually know this? Often a TA position provides funding for the PhD (i.e., covers the student’s tuition) and gives the student a small stipend for living expenses. Students without an assistantship (i.e., Teaching Assistant or Research Assistant position) have to self-fund their studies. Do we know if he was actually kicked out of the entire PhD program at the time (before he was arrested), or did he simply lose his assistantship at that time?

I would presume that even if he were fired as a TA, he would’ve been allowed to carry on as a student in the program provided he could self-fund (i.e., take out student loans). It’s very difficult to kick a student out of an academic program without clear violation of a university rule or unless the student exhibits poor academic performance over a sustained period of time. As a faculty member I’ve dealt with numerous cases of plagiarism, male students creeping female students out and sending inappropriate texts/private messages, & students found to have committed sexual misconduct before they were enrolled at the university. I also once had a student targeting me personally (as a faculty member) with explicit private messages that were totally inappropriate and creepy. Couldn’t kick any of them out. Some plagiarism or cheating cases, yes, but typically an ethics board gives them a second chance if they’re a first-time offender. In PhD programs, if you want a student gone it’s tough to do that until they reach their qualifying exams, which is usually after 2 years of their PhD study. At that point if you don’t believe they should carry on, you fail them in quals and they don’t continue.

All of this is to say I don’t think he was actually kicked out of his PhD program (pre-arrest) unless someone can point us to a source saying that he was? I think he fully intended on going back to WSU after the Christmas break and carrying on with his PhD, even if that meant he’d have to take out student loans to do it. I don’t think he thought he’d ever be caught for the crimes he committed.

JMO

That's a very good point and I certainly didn't mean to suggest that he was kicked out of the whole program. But for someone who prided himself on being smarter than everyone else, being fired from his position would have been devastating. Having to tell his parents would have been worse.

 

[ag513]

Maybe. If the program will require a research dissertation that's not merely theoretical or a lit review, then some practice in conceiving projects and carrying them out would be needed. And free grad student help is how professors get their research done. So everybody is supposed to benefit from the apprentice model. But if every student has to collect original data for a required dissertation, why have this additional vague requirement about teaching and/or collecting data? (I agree it's probably vague on purpose. And whatever the purpose for making it vague had nothing to with BK!)

Probably not that relevant to the whole BK case, but a lot of RA positions are paid just like TA positions. I have funds through my university to pay RAs to assist with my research. It gives the PhD students some much-needed income, allows them to learn from experienced researchers, and often allows them to understand a research method or data analysis procedure they wouldn't have used or understood well otherwise. All making them a more well-rounded researcher for when they finish a PhD program and are looking for jobs. And it's a massive help to the professor, as you pointed out.

My thought with WSU's vague wording (thank you for posting that, by the way!) was that maybe they offer some TA positions and some RA positions (although those might be more ad hoc and not quite as formalized as the TAs based on the wording?) So I wondered if perhaps he could have eventually ended up in an RA position where he wouldn't necessarily be as public-facing (if he was doing online surveys, content analysis, or another method that didn't require face-to-face interaction, as the university would probably be pretty careful with that given the complaints against him).

I suppose we'll never know, and probably doesn't really matter much in the context of this case given everything we know now. I do think if other options were available to him to either self-fund or earn some money through RA work, he would have absolutely been planning to go back to WSU after the Christmas trip to PA, and he could've probably gotten by without ever telling his family he was fired from the TA position. JMO.

 

[ag513]

That's a very good point and I certainly didn't mean to suggest that he was kicked out of the whole program. But for someone who prided himself on being smarter than everyone else, being fired from his position would have been devastating. Having to tell his parents would have been worse.

Thank you! I realized you didn't say he was kicked out of the whole program, so apologies I addressed it on your post. I read that in other posts maybe even a few threads back and never had time to respond and never saw anyone else question it, so I ended up going on a tangent.

I agree that being fired would have been devastating for him and he would've felt gutted if he had to tell his family. I suspect he would've been able to get by without ever telling his parents if he took out student loans or had any future opportunities to serve as a paid Research Assistant. Then he could have kept up the TA facade with his family. I've seen several students get in sticky situations and do everything possible to keep their parents from finding out. I feel like the dynamics between his parents and him would be very interesting to know. I get the sense his parents probably did not understand a lot about how PhD programs work and were just proud of him for being in that program, so they may have never suspected or questioned anything if he didn't admit it to them. JMO

 

[Dotta]

Probably been planning to go back to WSU after the Christmas trip to PA, and he could've probably gotten by without ever telling his family he was fired from the TA position. JMO.

I guess he had different things on his mind