4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 73

[Auntie Cipation]

Apropos of nothing -- I was just scrolling Twitter when I came across the phrase "he slid into her DMs".

It caught my eye and I looked with interest, assuming this case was being discussed, but no, it was unrelated.

It was, however, referring to a man who was sending uninvited and unwelcome messages to a woman.

So I guess it's a known phrase, though still not something a professional (in either LE or in journalism, in my opinion) should be using in a formal document.

MOO

 

[Spec-u-lator]

My personal opinion is that BK didn't tell his parents that he had been sacked from his TA job. I think he would have left his parents' home in due course, in order to "return to Moscow". But wherever he went, he would have continued to communicate with his parents "from Moscow". Hoping that before too long he could honestly let them know that he had a position elsewhere. Just my opinion, of course.

Some WSers, including me, have wondered if BK knew before leaving WSU that his TA would be terminated/not renewed. As former Higher Ed faculty (MOO), it seems more likely than not that he knew he'd been sacked. Consider the following:
-Finals were scheduled for the week of 12/12/22-12/16/22.
-As TA he would have been required to grade and submit all student final exams (150 students has been mentioned as the approximate # who witnessed his "defense" of his grading criteriah) well before end of semester on 12/19/22.
-BK presumably had his own finals to take
***That would mean taking his finals, grading student finals, and submitting student finals ALL on 12/12 in order to depart on 12/13 with his father. Add in packing, possibly getting father at airport, etc. MOO, this timeline is much too brief to allow time for all that, which is why the uni allows a week.

Given BK was essentially told on 12/2, a little over a week before finals, that he had not sufficiently improved on his professional behavior, (was there an altercation on this date?) it could well be that he was relieved of grading the finals. In which case he DID know before leaving WSU he had lost his TA position, MOO.

 

[10ofRods]

SO, in other BK news, did anyone yet post the article from InsideEdition? I found several media threads across WS where Inside Edition is a source, so I'm going to post this:

Bryan Kohberger supporters send Valentine's Day gifts, form online groups supporting murder suspect

One subReddit is called Brynation, and it is where one admirer posted the receipt for the $50 she placed in Kohberger’s commissary account as a Valentine’s Day gift.

www.insideedition.com

It's about another group of true crime enthusiasts, actually. At any rate, if it's already been posted, I apologize. It's about BK's Valentine's Day in jail.

Link to a recent use of Inside Edition on a media page.

Trying to do due diligence. This is the article where there's a screenshot for a $50 commissary gift sent to BK by an anonymous admirer. Odd thing is how many people wanted to do the same after learning about it on SM.

 

[Nova]

Thanks for the timeline clarification.

To me, there is no "evidence" of planning to go back. Do we have any inventory of what he left behind that he couldn't easily replace? I doubt he even owned any furniture, etc., of great value.

Also, why would a person like BK remain in an environment where he would likely depend on the very people who have summarily rejected him. It seems to me that he had an avoidance pattern when called out for his behavior.

Wouldn't he have had a funding issue as well? I doubt they would be eager to have him as an RA.

It really doesn't matter which scenario one believes now, I guess. I just can't see him finding a way to continue in such a small doctoral program.

JMO

My gut response is the same as yours, but I had colleagues from my grad-school days who persevered long after it was obvious they were not well received in our program. They weren't literally carried out the door, but they were metaphorically. (OT but I also worked at a law firm where co-workers had longstanding lawsuits against our firm. It wouldn't have occurred to me to continue working for an employer I was suing, but they did and it seemed to work out for them.)

Most important re timeline: BK didn't know he had lost his TA job until sometime after he was back home in PA. IIRC, he left behind a couple of expensive pieces of computer equipment--I'm not inclined to search back through 70 threads to find a link, so everyone please ignore this sentence if it doesn't jive with your memory. We have seen claims that BK never took responsibility for his own behavior, so perhaps he was able to convince himself that the problems with his supervising professor were trivial or even resolved.

It is at least possible he planned to return when he and his dad left Pullman, but had given up the notion by the time he was arrested.

 

[Nila Aella]

I came across these articles today:

Kaylee had her phone next to her, per SG Jan 6.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/06/us/idaho-killings-suspect-bryan-kohberger-friday/index.html#:~:text=The%20man%20accused%20of%20murdering,law%20enforcement%20source%20tells%20CNN.

AT will challenge probable cause at the preliminary hearing. End of this article.

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger has distant admirers who lavish praise, question guilt

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger has a small but active following among sympathetic social media users as he faces four counts of first-degree murder.

www.foxnews.com

BF never went upstairs.

Why Idaho survivor Bethany Funke never witnessed roommate...

Bryan Kohberger, 28, is charged in the murder of four University of Idaho students this past November.

www.newsweek.com

MOO

 

[WingsOverTX]

I came across these articles today:

Kaylee had her phone next to her, per SG Jan 6.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/06/us/idaho-killings-suspect-bryan-kohberger-friday/index.html#:~:text=The%20man%20accused%20of%20murdering,law%20enforcement%20source%20tells%20CNN.

AT will challenge probable cause at the preliminary hearing. End of this article.

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger has distant admirers who lavish praise, question guilt

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger has a small but active following among sympathetic social media users as he faces four counts of first-degree murder.

www.foxnews.com

BF never went upstairs.

Why Idaho survivor Bethany Funke never witnessed roommate...

Bryan Kohberger, 28, is charged in the murder of four University of Idaho students this past November.

www.newsweek.com

MOO

I'm not finding the mention of Kaylee's 0hone location in the articles you posted. Relevance? She had no time or ability to do anything with it IMO. Maybe those who think she was awake would disagree.

Of course, AT (or whomever is counsel is in June) will challenge the PCA. That's her job. If he was easy to defend wouldn't he have wanted a quick preliminary hearing as opposed to sitting in jail for months before "being freed" with proof by his clever counsel?
JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

My gut response is the same as yours, but I had colleagues from my grad-school days who persevered long after it was obvious they were not well received in our program. They weren't literally carried out the door, but they were metaphorically. (OT but I also worked at a law firm where co-workers had longstanding lawsuits against our firm. It wouldn't have occurred to me to continue working for an employer I was suing, but they did and it seemed to work out for them.)

Most important re timeline: BK didn't know he had lost his TA job until sometime after he was back home in PA. IIRC, he left behind a couple of expensive pieces of computer equipment--I'm not inclined to search back through 70 threads to find a link, so everyone please ignore this sentence if it doesn't jive with your memory. We have seen claims that BK never took responsibility for his own behavior, so perhaps he was able to convince himself that the problems with his supervising professor were trivial or even resolved.

It is at least possible he planned to return when he and his dad left Pullman, but had given up the notion by the time he was arrested.

He left behind his computer tower but if he removed the hard drive it would not be as useful. If he had left behind any other computer equipment I am sure it would have been seized according to the search warrant.

He also left behind a fire stick used for streaming shows. They would want to see what he was watching.

What the defendants were watching the night of the murders came up in a trial I followed.

The movie followed 2 brothers who went on a mission to kill people they deamed "bad" by using silencers and sneaking up on people at night and shooting them in the head. They got tattoos commemorating it.

2 of the defendants in the case dyed their hair to match the hair color of an actor who played in this movie, although they were influenced by another role he played in. The defendants also used silencers and shot people in the head while sleeping and off-guard in their homes at night. They also got tattoos and claimed they had to kill to prevent something bad that maybe would happen in the future.

When a defendant turned State's evidence he admitted to watching the movie to psych himself up to go commit 8 murders.

The prosecution had been right when they suspected this.

 

[rsd1200]

SO, in other BK news, did anyone yet post the article from InsideEdition? I found several media threads across WS where Inside Edition is a source, so I'm going to post this:

Bryan Kohberger supporters send Valentine's Day gifts, form online groups supporting murder suspect

One subReddit is called Brynation, and it is where one admirer posted the receipt for the $50 she placed in Kohberger’s commissary account as a Valentine’s Day gift.

www.insideedition.com

It's about another group of true crime enthusiasts, actually. At any rate, if it's already been posted, I apologize. It's about BK's Valentine's Day in jail.

Link to a recent use of Inside Edition on a media page.

Trying to do due diligence. This is the article where there's a screenshot for a $50 commissary gift sent to BK by an anonymous admirer. Odd thing is how many people wanted to do the same after learning about it on SM.

I'd not seen it but I'm not surprised at all. It's simply amazing the number of folks who want a captive bf or gf, and will send them $$ in hopes of them calling more often, writing more often, the potential for a relationship if they are exonerated of the crime is not truly registering with the folks. I've known women personally, (and even men) who have written, accepted phone calls, and sent the individual(s) money they didn't really have, during the entirety of a person's stint in jail/prison. If the person is allowed parole, these same people will allow them to move in with them and their children. They claim to "know" them through writing them and THEIR inmate is just misunderstood. They had no chance in that trial, it was one-sided too, because their court-appointed lawyer was really working to aid the state in convicting them. It's all a big conspiracy. Upon their release, they will allow them to move in with them and their children. This usually lasts until either the money runs out, or, one or both realize they've made a terrible mistake. Sometimes the admirers/writers are as bad or worse than the offenders. It seems as if they live in a self-designed reality and no one can burst that bubble. What's even worse is when you see them do this behaviour over and over but with different inmates, when it doesn't work out with one who was released (and it very, very, rarely does). I think the captive "lover" is part of it all. Many who do this are single mothers, they've been left with several kids, and treated poorly by other men in their life. An inmate can only talk to you on the phone and write you steamy letters. At the end of the day, we can't stop folks from doing this but I feel it's very unhealthy (JM2). I have seen it happen with single men, allowing a total stranger, to move into their home with them, but not nearly as often.

 

[Nila Aella]

I'm not finding the mention of Kaylee's 0hone location in the articles you posted. Relevance? She had no time or ability to do anything with it IMO. Maybe those who think she was awake would disagree.

Of course, AT (or whomever is counsel is in June) will challenge the PCA. That's her job. If he was easy to defend wouldn't he have wanted a quick preliminary hearing as opposed to sitting in jail for months before "being freed" with proof by his clever counsel?
JMO

His quote about the phone is right under the photo of SG.

“She had her phone right next to her and she couldn’t call 911."

Relevance: I have heard some ponder if Kaylee was in a different room and went to help Madison. This, IMO, would mean both were in one room.
I agree that is ATs job, just never saw it printed in MSM before.
I don't agree about the proof, his counsel needs to know all the evidence against him first (which takes time). Then they can address each item. Even if they offered proof, IMO they would not just let him go before the preliminary hearing.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/06/us/idaho-killings-suspect-bryan-kohberger-friday/index.html#:~:text=The%20man%20accused%20of%20murdering,law%20enforcement%20source%20tells%20CNN.

 

[Dotta]

Distant admirers of BK

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger has distant admirers who lavish praise, question guilt

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger has a small but active following among sympathetic social media users as he faces four counts of first-degree murder.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Deleted member 718]

Attorneys reaffirm support for gag order

The Latah County Prosecutor’s Office and the attorney for the suspect in the Moscow quadruple homicide case have filed documents with the Idaho Supreme Court further supporting the need for

lmtribune.com

Attorneys reaffirm support for gag order​

Latah County Prosecutor’s Office and Kohberger’s attorneys file more documents addressing media’s petition to narrow the nondissemination order​

• By Anthony Kuipers For the Tribune
• Feb 21, 2023

 

[WingsOverTX]

His quote about the phone is right under the photo of SG.

“She had her phone right next to her and she couldn’t call 911."

Relevance: I have heard some ponder if Kaylee was in a different room and went to help Madison. This, IMO, would mean both were in one room.
I agree that is ATs job, just never saw it printed in MSM before.
I don't agree about the proof, his counsel needs to know all the evidence against him first (which takes time). Then they can address each item. Even if they offered proof, IMO they would not just let him go before the preliminary hearing.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/06/us/idaho-killings-suspect-bryan-kohberger-friday/index.html#:~:text=The%20man%20accused%20of%20murdering,law%20enforcement%20source%20tells%20CNN.

I thought the implication was that AT would attack the PCA itself as not enough to hold her client. It must be since the PH is supposed to be in June.

Certainly, having the actual evidence to fight is preferable for the defense (if indeed there is any remote possibility of easy exoneration).
JMO

 

[Deleted member 718]

02/21/2023 o,4., Order to File Defendant's Exhibit "A" Attached to the Defendant's lst Supplemental Request for Discovery Under Seal

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/Summary/Case-Summary-Kohberger-022123.pdf

Translation, please?

 

[PrairieWind]

02/21/2023 o,4., Order to File Defendant's Exhibit "A" Attached to the Defendant's lst Supplemental Request for Discovery Under Seal

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/Summary/Case-Summary-Kohberger-022123.pdf

Translation, please?

The defense has a supplemental request for discovery from the State. The material they are requesting is on "Exhibit A." The State and Defense entered into a stipulation that Exhibit A could be filed under seal (not publicly available). The Court is issuing its order approving that stipulation and stating that Exhibit A can be filed under seal.

 

[rsd1200]

A juror in serious consideration for selection is going to be asked questions about discussions of the case. If they are a WS member and have discussed the case, they can either admit it, and draw further questioning, or lie and deny it. It is going to be followed up on if the juror is selected. Don't lie or embellish when under oath.

However, I don't discuss the case on WS boards as I would with someone else or just to ponder it in my mind. Most all the time, at least 90%+, the defendant is presumed guilty. Do I think they have their guy in BK? The PCA sure makes it look that way, but, we have not seen nor heard everything, nor have we heard from the defense. As weird as this case is, it only shows me that it could possibly get even weirder. What if he is innocent?! In part that's why there's a whole sneaker post on here by me. I wanted to see how likely it was for that shoeprint to have been made by someone else other than BK.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Where I live, sequestration is rare, even in high profile cases. There are many newer elements to how jury selection is done in my county, but the main principal is that each juror has to say that they are capable of being fair and justice, of following the law, and of following the judge's instructions. It used to be that LE and attorneys were pretty much automatically excluded, but no more. It's still somewhat rare for LE to be impanelled (depends on the case) because of their work requirements.

Sequestration may not have the right effect, anyway. People are put up in hotels and hotels have televisions. I've never heard of jurors being disallowed from speaking on the phone to family. People have smart phones. Taking away all outside communication has been found to be hard on both the physical and mental health of the jurors and is rarely done (never done where I live).

And there has not been a spike in appeals - the opposite, actually. And the appeals that have been entered had nothing to do with the jury not being sequestered or with issues related to jury selection or fairness.

There's a body of academic literature on sequestration affects the health of jurors, and the verdicts. It should be very carefully considered, because most humans are capable of putting aside biases picked up from media coverage and paying attention in the courtroom. We also have a commitment to faster trials here (part of a larger nation-wide program, for which the county got grants to implement). Unfortunately, most of these articles are behind paywalls, but the upshot is that sequestration is a questionable practice, both in the past and presently.

Are the jurors to be sent to their rooms at 4-5 pm daily, locked in, deprived of television, radio and cell phone? If so, the chances of having many jurors fall ill or begin to exhibit psychiatric symptoms such as anxiety (already a problem in murder trials) is higher.

People like ourselves might be excluded during VD, if the right questions were asked. I was excluded from a criminal trial based on the fact that I had independent views and expertise on genetics, DNA collection techniques, etc (this was 10 years ago though, not sure I'd be excluded now - but I couldn't serve on a long trial due to health issues, at this point).

I'm putting links in, just in case some of you can find access through your own library resources.

The American Criminal Jury The Common Law Jury 62 Law and Contemporary Problems 1999

THE AMERICAN CRIMINAL JURYNANCY JEAN KING*IINTRODUCTIONThe criminal jury, after its importation to North America by English set-tlers, evolved into a unique institution in the United States. Across the centu-ries, prominent features of American law and culture have left their mark onthe criminal...

heinonline.org

A quote from the following article states that "there are prison systems that provide more privileges"...than some sequestrations"

The Impact of Sequestration on Juries 79 Judicature 1995-1996

The impact ofsequestration on juriesAlthough intended to shield the jury and ensurea fair trial, sequestration's potentialfor unnerving andeven infuriating jurors may in factundermine the pursuit ofjustice.by James P. LevineW ander into the Holiday~Inn on New York City'sStaten Island most...

heinonline.org

(The first full page of the article is visible).

These articles about the harm of sequestration began to appear in 1996. My county's program of new style jury selection began in 1999 and didn't really become more or less system-wide until 2005. So we have had no sequestration since 2005 except in one matter involving a criminal conspiracy - but the trial was swift (8 days) so that helped.

Last article states that non-sequestered jurors experience trials as relatively unstressful but sequestered jurors find it more stressful (article is in 2005), with the stress levels rising with the length of the trial, and women more prone to stress reactions than men in all the cases studied:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/bsl.635

(They debriefed the jury one month after the trial; collected responses at that point; and also collected responses from jurors in trials without a debriefing - the debriefing appears to have made no difference in the outcomes).

Right now, I think, based on what I've read, that BK is likely to be guilty. That said, if I were on the jury, hearing ALL the evidence based on the investigation and what the defense says, I could be impartial. Remember, the prosecution will not just go over evidence I think I know about, based on the media; it will present an ARGUMENT for BK's guilt. The defense will present an argument based on their position on the case (reasonable doubt, actual innocence, alibi statements, etc.). So what I know now is incomplete on both sides because I not only don't have all the evidence; I don't have either of the arguments about BK's innocence or guilt. A juror has a much different responsibility than someone who reads here and elsewhere. It's fine for me to speculate and put together an argument based on what I read. A juror has to weigh competing arguments presented in court. I think most juries get that.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

IMO this case has a couple of perculating legal issues. Just for some background, I was a full-time public defender handling thousands of clients and litigating hundred of cases and issues for the first 7 years of my practice.

1. Public Defenders

The toughest legal job there is and the lowest paying. Thankless work, but there are many outstanding PD's. Indigent defense is different in each state and federally there are full-time PD's and then panel attorneys who handle conflicts and other cases. In this matter, the attorneys handling the defense should be paid more than $200 an hour, but this just shows how indigent defense is a low budget priority, IMO.

2. COI

According to Ashley Banfield the prosecutor is not keen on the current attorney representing the defendant and the judge and defense attorney met in chambers with the judge declaring there is no conflict. However, neither the judge nor the attorney can waive a conflict. Only the impacted client(s) can waive a conflict. If the defendant wants to pursue a not me, some other person ("NMSOP") defense, the most logical avenue to explore is the drug angle and that goes to the victims and/or people near them. If some of the victims and/or their parents were involved in drugs, owed people money, or had been arrested and possibly snitched, these are all viable avenues for the defense to pursue and investigate. How do you do that if you are investigating your former client(s) for the exact thing you represented them for? This is where the potential conflict can arise.

Even if the defendant waived the conflict, he could still come back on appeal and say the waiver was not valid because it was coerced, etc.

Thus, IMO the potential conflict issue will always be there. In my old PD office these facts would have lead to the entire office conflicting out of the case from the get go.

3. Change of Venue

This is an obvious pre-trial motion in this case. Less than 40K people live in the county and over 60% of them live in Moscow. We live less than 400 miles away and over a moutain range, and people here were freaking out and locking windows, etc. It will be interesting to see what data the defense uses in their motion to support the change in venue. I think Ada County and Boise are obvious choices just because of population. Ada county is probably tired of the rural counties sending them their god awful murder cases. Change of venue is an exremely hard motion to win, even in small rural counties, so this will be a very interesting litigation issue.

4. Defense Strategy in Prelim

What evidence will the defense attack, if any, at preliminary? Will this hearing be used for discovery, plea negotiations or the first battle against the state's evidence? This will interesting to watch.

IMO

I think if the defendant wants to argue that these 4 college kids were murdered because one of their mothers has a drug problem, he's going to prison for LWOP at a minimum. It's a stupid argument, first, and one that will alienate jurors.

 

[Deleted member 718]

First, a juror is the one that is going to make the decision, so we need to know that person is impartial. The Judge, attorneys etc can all have their preconceived notions. Voters as well. But also there is a difference in sleuthing, and having done a deep dive and formed an opinion. I would say discussing a case extensively on WS and stating you believe the defendant is guilty or innocent would be enough to get dismissed for cause.

Social media has certainly changed how potential jurors can access info about a crime. One Facebook group for the Moscow murders has almost 300,000 members and a popular Reddit group has over 130,000 members. I have no idea as to the TikTok numbers. I understand the majority aren't from Latah County but I'd venture a guess that many are. With 24/7 news cycles and info available at the click of a mouse, how will this affect selecting a jury of the defendent's peers?

We've certainly moved past gaining our info from the evening news.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

The Ito and cameras didn’t make OJ try on the glove in front of the jury nor did it put Mark Furman on the stand and make him a star witness. The prosecutors did.

OJ committed those crimes but the prosecutors blew it.

Good points. I also think some trials become circuses because of the nature of the crime and the people involved. OJ was an outlier in every respect, as the first nationally televised trial of a major celebrity, in the days before digital media and streaming segmented the viewing public. It was Hollywood in every way. The case involved race, celebrities, domestic violence, horrific murder, dogs, a bunch of lawyers playing to the cameras. DNA was a new thing and prosecutors had to explain a lot of it to the jury; nearly 30 years later most people understand DNA and may even have sent their own in to an ancestry service. The crime scene investigators on this case were very sloppy.

I think law enforcement, forensic scientists, prosecutors and judges learned a lot from the OJ debacle.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

My experience is the same as yours. In fact, I've been bounced (preemptory challenge not for cause) even after I explained that as an IT worker, at the time, I really had no knowledge of my firm's cases or evidentiary procedures.

Funny you should mention Aristotle. While "in the box" for a dog-bite civil case that I didn't think worth my time, I answered a question about "personal responsibility" by starting with Aristotle's views and then moving forward in time through the Christian era, etc. I was quickly excused! LOL.

As the court reporter said to me afterwards, "You'll never serve on a jury if you let the lawyers know you are smarter than they are."

That's why once I check the Ph.D. box, I am probably dismissed.