4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 76

[Sister Golden Hair]

The preliminary hearing is to establish probable cause. It's likely the state will offer much more context and detail for the warrants we've already seen, and will hopefully offer some answers to some of the puzzling parts of this.

"A preliminary hearing is the State's opportunity to convince a magistrate that there is probable cause for each and every element of the charge. Remember, no probable cause for any element of the alleged crime means no further prosecution in the case. The State is required to put on sufficient admissible evidence, via testimony, documents (think laboratory reports), and other things. The defense can object to the introduction of evidence. Also, although the defense may ask questions during a preliminary hearing, because this is not a trial, sometimes no questions are asked. The probable cause requirement certainly exists, but it is not terribly difficult for the State to satisfy."

imo jmo there probably won't be much fluff thrown in, even if it were admissible.

I.C.R. 5.1. Preliminary Hearing - Probable Cause Hearing - Discharge or Commitment of Defendant - Procedure. | Supreme Court

isc.idaho.gov

https://www.khsidaholaw.com/whats-a-preliminary-hearing

once trial begins,

Idaho Rules of Evidence Rule 404. Character Evidence; Crimes or Other Acts. will rule on this

I.R.E. 404. Character Evidence not Admissible to Prove Conduct; Exceptions; Other Crimes. | Supreme Court

isc.idaho.gov

pretty much wipes out hope of any of the various Dailymail 15-minutes of fame type rolling up at trial. imo jmo

(a) Character Evidence.
(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of a person's character or trait of character is not admissible to prove that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character or trait. (so we won't here about BK being mean to someone in 2nd grade or staring at someone on campus imo jmo)
(2) Exceptions for a Defendant or Victim in a Criminal Case. The following exceptions apply in a criminal case:
(A) a defendant may offer evidence of the defendant’s pertinent trait, and if the evidence is admitted, the prosecutor may offer evidence to rebut it;
(B) a defendant may offer evidence of an alleged victim’s pertinent trait of character, and if the evidence is admitted, the prosecutor may offer evidence to rebut it;
(C) in a homicide case, the prosecutor may offer evidence of the alleged victim’s trait of peacefulness to rebut evidence that the victim was the first aggressor.

(3) Exceptions for a Witness. Evidence of a witness’s character may be admitted under Rules 607, 608 and 609.

I.R.E. 404. Character Evidence not Admissible to Prove Conduct; Exceptions; Other Crimes. | Supreme Court

isc.idaho.gov

I.R.E. 608. Evidence of Character and Conduct of Witness. | Supreme Court

isc.idaho.gov

I.R.E. 609. Impeachment by Evidence of Conviction of Crime. | Supreme Court

isc.idaho.gov

Character evidence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

has a nice general summary, not required reading, but for those unfamiliar, it gives a go.

 

[WingsOverTX]

If I'm innocent and on trial with the prospect of being put to death, I doubt I'd care whether or not a a witness felt attacked on the stand. As a human, I'd care, but my in this case, life trumps feelings. The defense attorney doesn't want to risk turning the jury against her client, but if she's doing her job, IMO, she will go wherever she needs to go withing the bounds of the law.

That is the interesting dichotomy of a case like this. Though some people have decided that BK is the killer, at the moment, we don't have and may never have conclusive evidence that he is. Someone murdered four people and we (I hope) want someone to pay for that. However, if we go by the US assumption of innocence unless proven otherwise, IMO, we should be as vigilant in determining if everything LE thinks they know is true. I have no interest in trading one (potentially) innocent life for four others.

My point is if the defendant wants to plea out, why couldn't the prosecution agree to it? If it's not feasible under the law, then the law is standing in the way of what I as a layperson would see as as the best outcome unless the final charge includes the DP.

Is there no precedent of a plea agreement in cases like this, outside this jurisdiction perhaps?

And no, I would not expect BK to care about anyone, including a deeply traumatized victim, being attacked on the stand. The DA OTOH might have some discretion to prevent that.

IANAL so I cannot speak to the legal practicalities of my viewpoints. And yet, I still must speak.
MOO

 

[NCWatcher]

My point is if the defendant wants to plea out, why couldn't the prosecution agree to it? If it's not feasible under the law, then the law is standing in the way of what I as a layperson would see as as the best outcome unless the final charge includes the DP.

Is there no precedent of a plea agreement in cases like this, outside this jurisdiction perhaps?

And no, I would not expect BK to care about anyone, including a deeply traumatized victim, being attacked on the stand. The DA OTOH might have some discretion to prevent that.

IANAL so I cannot speak to the legal practicalities of my viewpoints. And yet, I still must speak.
MOO

I expect some of the family members want to see BK in court. And we know some family want the DP. That doesn't mean the state will pursue that but I'm not sure it would be dealt away either. The DA is an elected position, after all.
JMO

 

[NCWatcher]

Double post again. Sorry.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

An innocent man doesn't need to "go there" to be cleared. A guilty man will find no lasting advantage in doing so.
MHOO

Snipped for focus. If that was true, innocent people wouldn't get convicted. MOO.

 

[Bogbacal2]

I decided that I can't stay away. But instead of debating I'll just contribute where I can. This is all MOO.

I agree with everything but the GPS data being a hindrance for trial. The cell tower data is much much stronger than lack of GPS data is.

For one, the only reliable place to retrieve historical GPS data in a Android device is the Google Maps Timeline feature. As it comes installed and turned on by default on the majority of Android devices. If BK had the Timeline feature turned off (as many privacy focused people do) or uninstalled Google Maps before the crimes LE not finding GPS data would not be very surprising. As the only other way to have GPS data in there would be to Ask an App like Waze for Directions to the Crime Scene. I could be wrong but I don't think Android's default settings allows any other apps to passively collect location data. But if I am wrong then this makes BKs predicament only worse.

We also know (via the video from the Indiana stops) that his Elantra was equipped with the base infotainment system option that contains absolutely no GPS hardware whatsoever.

Secondly, GPS data is extremely easy to spoof on Android devices. Either on the device via easily accessible apps (you can literally download them in a minute or two) or via a desktop emulator. You could essentially create an entire trail of breadcrumbs. Though most of the uses I've seen have nothing to do with quadruple murders.....cheating on Pokemon Go, cheating on a spouse, making Netflix think you totally should have access to that spanish novella.

Cell towers on the other hand are pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to lie to. This is by design. They to rely on a few things. I'll talk about two of them. Unlike GPS....IMEI which is unique to each and every cellular device is extremely hard to spoof. And the fact that spoofing those identifiers will get you thrown in jail (read: illegal) makes it a lot more difficult to find apps or anyone openly creating tools to do it. IMEI (and the other standard I'm going to mention) have been designed with global crime fighting in mind.

Let's say that you managed to successfully spoof IMEI. It would essentially be a gigantic waste of time because the IMSI encrypted on your SIM card is going to get you caught. And the encryption utilized on the latest version of IMSI has all prevented people from cloning them. If anyone wants to read anymore about this look up LE's use of Man in the middle attacks, specifically Stingray's, Cell Site Spoofing and privacy advocates and the criminal world seeking to stop them.

Just another quick comment about smartphones.

If BK more recently deleted anything on his phone LE will likely be able to recover all of it in a unstructured state, fragments of it or references to it. The only way to really avoid this is to use specialized tools/apps or to override every single bit of available hard drive space multiple times over with new data. Effectively wiping out anything that might have been stored on a sector somewhere by the operating system.

Here goes such a tool

DoD Compliant Data Erasure Software - BitRaser

BitRaser Wipes Data Securely Using DoD 5220.22-M Standard & Helps Achieve Complaince with ISO 27001, EU-GDPR, SOX, GLBA & CCPA.

www.bitraser.com

I'm sure the cell phone equivalent is out there somewhere but keep in mind that this is only the first step in destroying a hard drive. After they are confident that a tool like Bitraser has wiped the drive they usually drill it full of holes, shred it in a hard drive shredder, and might even melt it. There's a reason they go through these lengths....

Again, MOO and only mine.

IMO if BK did do it and is successful in wiping out all remnants of any sinister data then LE could look at the places collecting crazy amount of user information often unbeknownst to said user.

First, Go ahead and Copy and Paste this link into your browser...(this link is showing a preview but it's Google's GPS timeline and will likely only work for people clicking on this link from an Android device or if you're a Google Maps on iPhone user)

https://timeline.google.com/maps/timeline

Then copy and paste this one here.....should work for all Google account holders...even if you don't have an Android device. Unless you've explicitly turned this feature off.....

https://myactivity.google.com

If you have a Google account and nothing appears under either of those links...CONGRATULATIONS!

2 months left! Then we'll know more!

Edit/Update: I don't want to edit this into the stuff I wrote above because I don't have the time to go over it. But if BK was a frequent user of Google Maps in the area (Maps would recognize this and maintain the area in it's cache for quicker access) or explicitly downloaded the map to his cellular device (option on Android). He could use Google Maps to navigate without needing to have cellular turned on. GPS is independent of cellular and is a phone to satellite / satellite to phone connection. Even turn by turn directions would still work, it just wouldn't utilize live traffic data. The cellular network is only involved to enhance GPS data (surrounding POIs, time you leave for work, traffic etc).

Had no idea! Google timeline tracked me! Have iPhone but use google maps. A little scary.

 

[CSIDreamer]

I expect some of the family members want to see BK in court. And we know some family want the DP. That doesn't mean the state will pursue that but I'm not sure it would be dealt away either. The DA is an elected position, after all.
JMO

On a flip side of that, IMO accepting a plea for LWOP would save the state a bundle of $$. JMO

 

[NCWatcher]

On a flip side of that, IMO accepting a plea for LWOP would save the state a bundle of $$. JMO

True but victims' families don't always see it that way.
JMO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Had no idea! Google timeline tracked me! Have iPhone but use google maps. A little scary.

It appears Google Timeline can only track you while you are logged in to your google account.

Although I slip up sometimes and forget, mostly I stay logged out.

Checking my timeline confirms months-long gaps in my supposed activity, when in reality I simply wasn't logged in to google. (Google maps still works fine as a mapping app, for directions etc without being logged in. Maybe some map functions require it but many do not.)

MOO and IME

 

[Sundog]

Possibly. I don't find it pertinent to what we know about that night right now. Her blood alcohol level wasi not likely tested so pursuing that line of inquiry would be speculation IMO. I guess we will have to see where the defense goes in the PH. Feelings are still running high & will be for a long, long time. The defense should be able to strenuously defend BK without attacking the victims. An innocent man doesn't need to "go there" to be cleared. A guilty man will find no lasting advantage in doing so.
MHOO

I don't think the defense will attack the victims, I think the defense will seek out a witness or witnesses who will testify to any drinking activtiy by the victims if, in fact, that took place that night. That way the defense attorneys don't look like the bad guys in the eyes of the jury.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Whoa!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1643792466212995072

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Someone upthread mentioned non-Google apps that use the phone's gps, which put me into this train of thought:

We've heard that BK was a runner and also was focused (several years ago, at a minimum) on losing weight. Makes me wonder if he had any sort of fitness tracker, whether a separate device (ie fitbit) or just phone app(s) -- fitbit, strava, etc.

Speculation and MOO

 

[Boxer]

True but victims' families don't always see it that way.
JMO

All trials are risky.
MOO LWOP would be a good deal for the families.

 

[jepop]

RE Tinder: How about,the 19 redacted accounts were identified via a perusal of the victim's contacts (Kaylee and Maddie). Those 19 had pics that in a general sense teed with DM's description. LE successfully gained PC for the further warrants to check these individuals out via a confidential explanation of LE technique and procedure, in this case 1) there are four murders and no usual suspects; 2) we have this general witness description to go on as part of the investigation at this point. Surely this is possible? I think it's feasible anyway. A Confidential source could be a detective/fbi swearing to the procedure and technique and why it is being used in this case of unusual mass murder. Since then the 19 have obviousy (IMO) been eliminated. MOO

edited spelling and to add a little more detail.

 

[whiterhino]

QUOTE:

"There is the account connected to Tinder with the dates of between March 1, 2021 and March 31, 2021 (apparently there are about 20 redacted accounts) https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - Match Group LLC 4.pdf"

This is likely one reason why they are investigating earlier dates, before BK even moved to Washington:

A new look at court documents shows that investigators are examining whether suspected killer Kohberger actually targeted the four young students long before he started attending the Ph.D. program at nearby Washington State University.

MSN

This is what I was getting at. What might have been going on during 2021?

BK was working in PA for at least some part of 2021. There are Tinder account warrants with dates from January 2021 (KG & MM) and March 1-31 2021 specifically. Do all 20 redacted Tinder accounts belong to one person? If they don't belong to BK then who do they belong to? Why redact BKs name but not KG or MM?

At first glance IMO it looked like a "catfish" situation but could have also been proof of stalking (some would class catfishing as stalking). Afterall, BK was following some of the victims on SM and attempted to message at least one of them. What are the dates for those messages?

 

[Boxer]

I don't think the defense will attack the victims, I think the defense will seek out a witness or witnesses who will testify to any drinking activtiy by the victims if, in fact, that took place that night. That way the defense attorneys don't look like the bad guys in the eyes of the jury.

Agree, soft impeachment techniques will be used.

However 4 sheets to the wind or not, DM described a male matching the owner of a white Elantra. That is the bottom line.

 

[10ofRods]

I just want to say that we know nothing, one way or another, about the "lack" of GPS data.

To assume it doesn't exist (when the phone was on) is premature, IMO, perhaps even silly. It exists and is recorded by various apps. Which is why I keep pointing out that we don't even know if his phone was actually OFF as opposed to merely in airplane mode. I'm not up for discussing it much, until the Prelim, but I won't be convinced until the Prelim that such data is missing.

It's absurd if it's missing and a huge hole in the case. It's not missing, IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Whoa!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1643792466212995072

NN's exclusive comes 2 months after every other MSM reported on it.

Pennsylvania cold cases under review for possible links to Bryan Kohberger

Kohberger was arrested at his parents’ Albrightsville home on Dec. 30.

nypost.com

 

[U.N. Known]

This is what I was getting at. What might have been going on during 2021?

BK was working in PA for at least some part of 2021. There are Tinder account warrants with dates from January 2021 (KG & MM) and March 1-31 2021 specifically. Do all 20 redacted Tinder accounts belong to one person? If they don't belong to BK then who do they belong to? Why redact BKs name but not KG or MM?

At first glance IMO it looked like a "catfish" situation but could have also been proof of stalking (some would class catfishing as stalking). Afterall, BK was following some of the victims on SM and attempted to message at least one of them. What are the dates for those messages?

Have you found a link for info in bold? I may have missed it, but I have not seen that confirmed.

 

[10ofRods]

This is what I was getting at. What might have been going on during 2021?

BK was working in PA for at least some part of 2021. There are Tinder account warrants with dates from January 2021 (KG & MM) and March 1-31 2021 specifically. Do all 20 redacted Tinder accounts belong to one person? If they don't belong to BK then who do they belong to? Why redact BKs name but not KG or MM?

At first glance IMO it looked like a "catfish" situation but could have also been proof of stalking (some would class catfishing as stalking). Afterall, BK was following some of the victims on SM and attempted to message at least one of them. What are the dates for those messages?

I don't know the answer, but I do know that the rights of someone who is presumed innocent and is a criminal defendant are protected. I also know that many rights die with a person: dead people have few rights.

Maybe BK was looking forward to moving to WA/ID and surrounding area, and got a bunch of tinder accounts to use Rational Choice Theory and Script Theory to try and meet women. Who knows? If I were profiling him, I'd consider it. Why go small when the warrant can go as large as a judge allows? Judges see so much **advertiser censored** stuff in their courtrooms, they are willing to realize that stalking behaviors (etc) can go back in time.

We don't know who the Tinder accounts belong to. Perhaps they subpoena'ed all the accounts of everyone BK ever swiped on. Who knows? Maybe they want to know his pattern of interaction with all those women, as well. Maybe they want to know if he ever stalked any other women. Perfectly okay to investigate that aspect.

I think the dates on the messages are about a month before or within a month before the murders, but that's just MOO as I do not have the energy to look it up again. My specific memory is that BK messaged one of the victims 3 weeks before the murders (and I believe it can be found by using Google and being patient - the name of that particular victim will come up).

It's likely that another WSer has the link.

Three weeks before the murders stayed in my mind for obvious reasons. But I can see why a court would allow further exploration of various parties' Tinder accounts, due to the fact that if LE has the theory that BK used Tinder to stalk, contact, track etc., then other people could have done so as well. They have to rule everything out.

The impact on innocent Tinder account holders who also messaged one of the victims is part of the community impact of murder - and rape - and criminals take advantage of that. Hiding amidst a pool of other people who performed the same behavior is (as we can see on these threads about BK), is a better tactic than sticking out like a sore thumb.

IMO.