4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

[Sister Golden Hair]

@Sister Golden Hair
My apologies. Did not intend to suggest that you thought ILP was a reasonable or a sound basis for parents' tort claim notice against U of I or that ILP is good public policy. My post noted that my comments were based on reading the law firm's webpage about the case and LexisNexis "Case Brief" aka "LexisNexis-Lite."

You dive in deep, and your posts reflect it --- in a good way.
Tracking and analysis --- like yours --- of warrants & ct-filed doc's has never been done like this before on W/S (that I recall).

Amazing how much info springs from the order, timing, & deets, like reasons for sealing.

Did not intent to offend, or to misstate your conclusion.
Glad you are here.

Oh, sorry, I'm not offended I am just offended by the whole idea of it, and I haven't really reached a conclusion about how they'll go. I just saw a lot of posts out here along the lines of "what could they sue for?" and as you know, there are only so many ways they can go with it. If they're going negligence, Duty Breach Cause Harm. So what was the duty? In Loco was what popped into my little brain lol, and I connected quick dots b/c I'd read that it's being reimagined.

Like this: Reimagining In Loco Parentis

(I don't spend much time on it; it's not an area of interest.)

I don't know if that's what they'll do, just seems like a logical direction, but ICBW. What I am probably not wrong about is the timing here, and I'm probably not wrong about what I believed from the beginning was a drift in this intentional direction. So no harm, no foul, and if I seemed offended by you, it wasn't you.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

You dive in deep, and your posts reflect it --- in a good way.
Tracking and analysis --- like yours --- of warrants & ct-filed doc's has never been done like this before on W/S (that I recall).

Oh, and BTW, thank you. I didn't know this b/c it's my first "case" at WS. IMO it's all we've got, and so I don't know that it was anything other than sheer desperation on my part to try to put some pieces together since I didn't think I could use this instead:

Emotional Distress Claims in Idaho: 5 Things That Help Prove Your Case

Emotional distress claims are among the most difficult injuries to prove in a court case. Unlike a broken bone, or a spinal disk injury, there is no test

hepworthholzer.com

(^^^That's a joke but if I could...)

 

[twall]

Just clicked on the link. I cannot imagine the pain felt by Maddie's family (and all the families). This gesture shows their love and must surely help in some small way to mediate their loss.. I feel they see Maddie going on in the acts of kindness that will come from this. Be kind on Maddie Mogen Day. And all days try to be. Reminds me of the line from a song by Jewel "In the end, only kindness matters". MOO

My daughter had her wisdom teeth removed yesterday so on the way home we stopped at Wendy's drive thru for a Frosty and I paid for the person's order behind me. So that was my random act of kindness!

Also, I watched an interview with Kay and Larry Woodcock with CourtTV's Chanley Painter last night and learned Maddie shares a birthday with JJ Vallow. Two beautiful angels!

 

[arielilane]

Idaho college killings: 2 victims' families reserve right to sue Moscow | Banfield​

"They're not lawsuits they're kind of a warning that the families might seek damages in the future. It's a safeguard," according to Gigi.

 

[arielilane]

Idaho college killings: 2 victims' families reserve right to sue Moscow | Banfield​

"They're not lawsuits they're kind of a warning that the families might seek damages in the future. It's a safeguard," according to Gigi.

Responding to self-post. After listening to this I can't blame the families for filing the tort. moo

 

[Cool Cats]

My daughter had her wisdom teeth removed yesterday so on the way home we stopped at Wendy's drive thru for a Frosty and I paid for the person's order behind me. So that was my random act of kindness!

Also, I watched an interview with Kay and Larry Woodcock with CourtTV's Chanley Painter last night and learned Maddie shares a birthday with JJ Vallow. Two beautiful angels!

Wow... I wonder if this is why?

Just this week my son and I went through the McDonald's drive through and the lady ahead of us paid for our order. We had no idea why.

....... Hummmm.......

And I noticed the flag in front was flying at half-staff.

Whatevever the reasons, thanks for the reminder!

 

[U.N. Known]

I agree. And I also think the LE messaging was very clear: if you have such a vehicle, please contact us. It was an obvious attempt to get every white Elantra owner in the region to communicate with police - as innocent people would do. As that happened, the pool of non-reporting Elantras began to stand out in stark contrast. There was even an element of strong asking, at the time, for more people to come forward then, the Chief stopped mentioning it (likely because they had other evidence that obviated the need for a blanket search; perhaps better video from some camera near 1122, or perhaps the match to Kohberger's dad's DNA had effectively narrowed the field).

I strongly suspect that they got way more video from local businesses of Kohberger's Elantra and likely had its plate number (we know they had it before he left for PA). The investigation, at any rate, shifted focus away from the Elantra - they knew whose Elantra it was.

IMO.

I agree that LE messaging was very clear, but we cannot make the automatic connection that if BK was innocent, he would have communicated with them. As an innocent person, I would have the opposite reaction--"they cannot mean me because I have nothing to do with the murders and the car they are looking for is older than mine."

Of course, my reaction does not mean BK is innocent, but I don't consider his failure to contact police about his car as evidence of guilt.

As for video with BK's plate number, I have wondered how they don't mention having any definitive proof that the car on video belonged to him. Not one mention of a plate other than the lack of one on the front of the car. Are there any indications of warrants granted after the PCA was written that could have additional, clear video of the Elantra's rear plate?

 

[LoveyluvsThurston]

My daughter had her wisdom teeth removed yesterday so on the way home we stopped at Wendy's drive thru for a Frosty and I paid for the person's order behind me. So that was my random act of kindness!

Also, I watched an interview with Kay and Larry Woodcock with CourtTV's Chanley Painter last night and learned Maddie shares a birthday with JJ Vallow. Two beautiful angels!

I saw so many wonderful things yesterday. Someone donated $100 in new books to an underserved after school program, I put $20 of quarters in the laundry room, my dog donated to a rescue who saves abandoned senior dogs from the shelter and my husband saw a high school in Spokane that needed prom funds for kids to have dresses and tuxes, so my sister and I did that. I lost my older brother suddenly in January from an accident I cannot fathom Lodi g him the way they lost their children. . The pain is real- this violent and sudden loss for those families is monumental. I hope yesterday helps them and like you said, it keeps Maddie’s spirit alive in a very loving way.

 

[al66pine]

Responding to self-post. After listening to this I can't blame the families for filing the tort. moo

@arielilane
Care to share anything more specific about why?
TiA.

 

[10ofRods]

I agree that LE messaging was very clear, but we cannot make the automatic connection that if BK was innocent, he would have communicated with them. As an innocent person, I would have the opposite reaction--"they cannot mean me because I have nothing to do with the murders and the car they are looking for is older than mine."

Of course, my reaction does not mean BK is innocent, but I don't consider his failure to contact police about his car as evidence of guilt.

As for video with BK's plate number, I have wondered how they don't mention having any definitive proof that the car on video belonged to him. Not one mention of a plate other than the lack of one on the front of the car. Are there any indications of warrants granted after the PCA was written that could have additional, clear video of the Elantra's rear plate?

I in no way was implying that people should contact police if they don't wish to.

They haven't had a chance to mention the "definite proof" because the PCA was sufficient. Judges work closely with prosecutors to get the minimum amount of evidence into a PCA, so that other legal difficulties do no arise later.

I don't consider it evidence of guilt, but I guarantee you that it made local police wary. They had an ever shorter list of cars to look at (that were local). I would love to know when they first learned his plate number (clearly they had it, if it was read automatically in Colorado). That had to have come from a combination of the sheath DNA/Kohberger connection and the records of the WSU campus police. IIRC, they had already gotten a subpoena for his phone records, surely they had connected him to repeated trips through the 1122 neighborhood. None of those things is evidence of guilt, but they are perfect to put into a PCA and allow the defendant to come to court and give a strong alibi (something LE/Prosecutor couldn't know existed until after the arrest). If Kohberger had been out of town that weekend and seen on camera one hundred miles away, with receipts and GPS to back it up, things would have gone very differently.

I'm sure they took all they had to the Grand Jury (not fond of GJ's myself, I wish we had had a prelim, but it likely would have been very prejudicial to the defendant, so I get it). They are trying to do this by the book.

IMO (I can't find the MSM about the license plate reader in CO, but as soon as I remember the little town where it happened, I will be able to find it).

 

[al66pine]

.... I would love to know when they first learned his plate number (clearly they had it, if it was read automatically in Colorado)....
IMO (I can't find the MSM about the license plate reader in CO, but as soon as I remember the little town where it happened, I will be able to find it).

snipped for focus @10ofRods

LOMA, CO.???
Per story, Dec. 13th traffic stop.
Jan 5 date on story.
" On Dec. 13 — exactly a month after four students were found dead at the University of Idaho — a license plate reader in Loma, Colorado captured the alleged suspect driving through town as he made his way across the country."

https://www.denver7.com/news/local-news/accused-killer-in-idaho-slayings-traveled-through-colorado-a-month-afterward.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

snipped for focus @10ofRods

LOMA, CO.???
Per story, Dec. 13th traffic stop.
Jan 5 date on story.
" On Dec. 13 — exactly a month after four students were found dead at the University of Idaho — a license plate reader in Loma, Colorado captured the alleged suspect driving through town as he made his way across the country."

https://www.denver7.com/news/local-news/accused-killer-in-idaho-slayings-traveled-through-colorado-a-month-afterward.

And by then they knew his WA plate number because his PA plates expired end of November, so he had to get new plates. Nothing nefarious about that, but they had his WA plate number at that time. They also had his PA plate per the PCA on page 9. What LE does not have - that we know of at this time - is an image of his plate the night of the murders. IMO.

Bryan Kohberger Changed License Plate Days After Idaho Murders, Was Stopped Near Victims' Home in August

Inside Edition Digital obtained records which show that the 2015 white Hyundai Elantra that Bryan Kohberger is seen driving in body cam footage from a traffic stop in Indiana was registered in the state of Washington on Nov. 19.

www.insideedition.com

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/122922%20Affidavit%20-%20Exhibit%20A%20-%20Statement%20of%20Brett-Payne.pdf

 

[arielilane]

@arielilane
Care to share anything more specific about why?
TiA.

BBM

What Gigi McKelvey and Tony Brueski had to say about the tort claim made sense, imo.

Shanon Gray has also filed tort claim notice with the WSU.

Gigi: They're not lawsuits they're kind of a warning that the families might seek damages in the future. It's a safeguard. Apparently there have been some rumblings that BK may have installed some security systems to watch females; and

Tony: It’s almost like an insurance policy -if something was off in the investigation involving an officer. We’ve got all the details of that investigation at that time. There certainly could be a kink in the case. So basically this puts a safeguard in place, the insurance policy will ensure that the children get justice.

Speculation: I am assuming that attorney advised the families to file. Again, speculation, not fact.

 

[Helechawagirl]

People lose their minds when someone dies; I lost my brother March 6, 2022 as he had been in poor health a long time and then March 6, 2023, my sister died—unexpected. There’s pain and anger;

SG wants someone to pay for the loss of his daughter. I can feel his rage; I’d feel the same. If BK walks on a technicality, SG will explode. He’s going to lash out at anyone and everyone. He wants someone to blame. He wants to go back in time and stop it from happening.

It’s just so senseless. JMO

P.S. So not interested in any of the books/etc. Despicable in my view to profit off of the deaths of these young adults. It’s not anyone’s story to tell. A research paper by experts in the field—yes. Everything else is morally wrong. JMO

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

People lose their minds when someone dies; I lost my brother March 6, 2022 as he had been in poor health a long time and then March 6, 2023, my sister died—unexpected. There’s pain and anger;

SG wants someone to pay for the loss of his daughter. I can feel his rage; I’d feel the same. If BK walks on a technicality, SG will explode. He’s going to lash out at anyone and everyone. He wants someone to blame. He wants to go back in time and stop it from happening.

It’s just so senseless. JMO

P.S. So not interested in any of the books/etc. Despicable in my view to profit off of the deaths of these young adults. It’s not anyone’s story to tell. A research paper by experts in the field—yes. Everything else is morally wrong. JMO

OTOH, money doesn't bring people back, and lashing out and blaming isn't always the best response. A lot of people and institutions who did nothing wrong will pay the price. IMO. I think it's unlikely (as in pigs fly) that BK will walk on a "technicality". He may be found innocent bc the state doesn't prove the case BARD, but that's not the same. I do agree, though, that it is despicable to profit off the deaths of these four people.

 

[10ofRods]

snipped for focus @10ofRods

LOMA, CO.???
Per story, Dec. 13th traffic stop.
Jan 5 date on story.
" On Dec. 13 — exactly a month after four students were found dead at the University of Idaho — a license plate reader in Loma, Colorado captured the alleged suspect driving through town as he made his way across the country."

https://www.denver7.com/news/local-news/accused-killer-in-idaho-slayings-traveled-through-colorado-a-month-afterward.

You sweet person! Thank you. Yes. So by the time the car from Pullman arrives in LOMA, CO, they are tracking via its license plate.

Obviously, they had that plate number by then. He was being watched in some fashion from early December, at least. I wish MSM covered more of this in its long form articles, because criminals ARE deterred by learning that their whereabouts are being tracked by various methods.

Today, my mind keeps going back to the actual four students; the horror of what happened; the fact that whoever did this, did it precisely to cause this horror - in all of us. In the families of these beautiful kids, of course, but to everyone else as well (including his own family, who now has their lives turned upside down).

I've really appreciated your steadfast provision of details in this case. And I have also appreciate WSers comments in general about this case.

IMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

I in no way was implying that people should contact police if they don't wish to.

They haven't had a chance to mention the "definite proof" because the PCA was sufficient. Judges work closely with prosecutors to get the minimum amount of evidence into a PCA, so that other legal difficulties do no arise later.

I don't consider it evidence of guilt, but I guarantee you that it made local police wary. They had an ever shorter list of cars to look at (that were local). I would love to know when they first learned his plate number (clearly they had it, if it was read automatically in Colorado). That had to have come from a combination of the sheath DNA/Kohberger cJonnection and the records of the WSU campus police. IIRC, they had already gotten a subpoena for his phone records, surely they had connected him to repeated trips through the 1122 neighborhood. None of those things is evidence of guilt, but they are perfect to put into a PCA and allow the defendant toF come to court and give a strong alibi (something LE/Prosecutor couldn't know existed until after the arrest). If Kohberger had been out of town that weekend and seen on camera one hundred miles away, with receipts and GPS to back it up, things would have gone very differently.

I'm sure they took all they had to the Grand Jury (not fond of GJ's myself, I wish we had had a prelim, but it likely would have been very prejudicial to the defendant, so I get it). They are trying to do this by the book.

IMO (I can't find the MSM about the license plate reader in CO, but as soon as I remember the little town where it happened, I will be able to find it).

Quote:
"I would love to know when they first learned his plate number (clearly they had it, if it was read automatically in Colorado). That had to have come from a combination of the sheath DNA/Kohberger connection and the records of the WSU campus police."

On November 29, 2022

On November 29, 2022, at approximately 12:28 am, Washington State University (WSU) Police Officer Daniel Tiengo, queried white Elantras registered at WSU. As a result of that query he located a 2015 white Elantra with a Pennsylvania license plate LFZ-8649.

This vehicle was registered to Bryan Kohberger hereafter "Kohberger" residing at 1630 NE Valley Road, apartment 201, Pullman Washington. 1630 NE Valley Road is approximately three-quarters of a mile from the intersection Stadium Way and Cougar Way (last camera location that picked up the white Elantra).

His phone number was obtained from his August 21, 2022 Moscow traffic stop.

PCA

 

[al66pine]

Tort Claim Notices Served on Multiple State & Muni. Entities on WSU.

BBM
What Gigi McKelvey and Tony Brueski had to say about the tort claim made sense, imo.
Shanon Gray has also filed tort claim notice with the WSU.
Gigi: They're not lawsuits they're kind of a warning that the families might seek damages in the future. It's a safeguard. Apparently there have been some rumblings that BK may have installed some security systems to watch females; and
Tony: It’s almost like an insurance policy -if something was off in the investigation involving an officer. We’ve got all the details of that investigation at that time. There certainly could be a kink in the case. So basically this puts a safeguard in place, the insurance policy will ensure that the children get justice.

Speculation: I am assuming that attorney advised the families to file. Again, speculation, not fact.

snipped for focus @arielilane
Thanks for your response.

I see your point, for anyone believing the phrase ---
"almost like an insurance policy.... will ensure that the children will get justice." --- is accurate.

It would be great if these Tort Claim Notices (and any ensuing civil actions) will ensure that "children will get justice" but personally doubting it. imo jmo moo ICBW.

And different people has different ideas about justice.

 

[SLouTh]

Legal documents don't contain hints. They contain facts and opinions based on knowledge, belief and experience (in the case of the warrants mostly.) Some of the facts may be used as clues to follow the trail, but that's it. LE and the court aren't hinting about anything. The motion to seal is signed by the prosecutor and provides legally allowed reasons for the motion. In the order, the judge will also provide their reason for sealing. Those reasons are ones specifically allowed by legislation re public records and Idaho Court Rules. The wording used is precise, taken from ICAR 32 (Idaho Court Adminstrative Rules) and Idaho Code 74-124.

I have broken the language down extensively in prior threads including the language used in the motion to request redaction and sealing of the warrants and affidavits and the language from the judge's orders. While following the warrants, it's important to remember that each is supported by probable cause contained in the affidavits which are all sealed. The order, dates, and the party upon whom the warrant was served are our only real path to follow.

I.C.A.R. 32. Records of The Judicial Department - Examination and Copying - Exemption From and Limitations on Disclosure. | Supreme Court

isc.idaho.gov

Section 74-124 – Idaho State Legislature

legislature.idaho.gov

74-124. Exemptions from disclosure — Confidentiality. (1) Notwithstanding any statute or rule of court to the contrary, nothing in this chapter nor chapter 10, title 59, Idaho Code, shall be construed to require disclosure of investigatory records compiled for law enforcement purposes by a law enforcement agency, but such exemption from disclosure applies only to the extent that the production of such records would:

(a) Interfere with enforcement proceedings;

(b) Deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication;

(c) Constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy;

(d) Disclose the identity of a confidential source and, in the case of a record compiled by a criminal law enforcement agency in the course of a criminal investigation, confidential information furnished only by the confidential source;

(e) Disclose investigative techniques and procedures;

(f) Endanger the life or physical safety of law enforcement personnel; or

(g) Disclose the identity of a reporting party maintained by any law enforcement entity or the department of health and welfare relating to the investigation of child abuse, neglect or abandonment unless the reporting party consents in writing to the disclosure or the disclosure of the reporting party’s identity is required in any administrative or judicial proceeding.

(g) Court records exempt from disclosure. Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this rule, court records specified below are exempt from disclosure. Any willful or intentional disclosure or accessing of a sealed or exempt court record, not otherwise authorized under this rule, may be treated as a contempt of court.

(1) Documents and records to which access is otherwise restricted by state or federal law;

(2) Pre-trial risk assessments and pre-sentence investigation reports, except as provided in Idaho Criminal Rule 32;

(3) Affidavits or sworn testimony and records of proceedings in support of the issuance of search or arrest warrant pending the return of the warrant;

(4) Unreturned search warrants;

(5) Unreturned arrest warrants, except bench warrants, or summonses in a criminal case, provided that the arrest warrants or summonses may be disclosed by law enforcement agencies at their discretion;

(A) An "arrest warrant" is a warrant issued for the arrest and detention of a defendant at the initiation of a criminal action.

(B) A "bench warrant" is a warrant issued for the arrest and detention of a defendant who has already appeared in a criminal action, and it would include a warrant issued for failure to appear at a hearing or trial, a warrant issued for violation of the conditions of release or bail, and a warrant issued for a probation violation.

(6) Unless otherwise ordered by the custodian judge, applications made and orders granted for the interception of wire, electronic or oral communications pursuant to Idaho Code § 18-6708, recordings of intercepted communications provided to the court, and reports made to the court regarding such interceptions under Idaho Code § 18-6708(7);

Thankyou for this great explanation! And I will keep a copy as it is really helpful …

However you have misinterpreted my post …. I was in no way suggesting there were “hints” in a legal document…..

I was replying to the original poster who ended the post with “OR“ - this sentence:


Maybe looking at the ATM outside? or?



So I was asking for a hint as I thought I was missing the alleged innuendo or meaning of that ….

Apologies for the confusion…

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

So I was asking for a hint as I thought I was missing the alleged innuendo or meaning of that ….

Apologies for the confusion…

B&SBM
Oh, sorry! I misinterpreted, but as you go along, those links are handy. When i started breaking down all of the warrants, motions, orders and double orders (the ones running out got new ones), I dug through all of that info so I get myopic. A baaaaad thing But hopefully it made sense re why and how it's done, and that there's no innuendo or meaning. It's the rare time that it just is what it says