4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

[schooling]

On June 27, Kohberger, his defense and the prosecution will be present for a motion hearing to compel the prosecution to hand over pieces of evidence the defense believes they are withholding. Defense attorneys said in their motion to compel discovery that they believe there is exculpatory evidence, meaning evidence that could absolve Kohberger of guilt, in his car, his parents' home and other unspecified reports and documents. The prosecution responded, claiming they have given the defense all the evidence they have.

What's next for Bryan Kohberger, the man accused of murdering 4 Idaho students?

His trial is set for Oct. 2, but that could always be pushed back. Meanwhile, more hearings are set for the month of June.

www.ktvb.com

I would love to know what is meant by this …. Especially “in his car” …..

Or is it that the defence didn’t find any blood evidence in his car???? Which doesn’t seem possible if he is guilty …

It will be interesting to see if any more information comes to light about this on June 27??

IMO

Knowing what I know so far…. even with the lack of DNA in the car it’s a likely guilty vote here. I’d still have to hear the defenses cross and case (if they choose to present one).

He had 6 weeks to clean the car and since the murders appear to be premeditated he could have prepped the car prior to the murders.

 

[NCWatcher]

Based on the State's response to discovery, they've got a ton of evidence. Of course, we won't know about it until trial or unless the gag order is lifted, which I doubt will happen in this case.

Is it possible it just happened to be BK's car in the area at the time of the murders 4 times, possible the intruder described by a witness matches his description, possible that he drove back around the scene the next day at 9:00 am, possible he purchased the same murder weapon used, possible he just happened to change his plates 5 days after the murders from PA to WA, possible he was found disposing trash in neighbors can at 4 am in the morning wearing gloves and he isn't involved?

It's all possible, but not probable beyond a reasonable doubt.

MOO

Changing his plate from PA to WA likely was meaningless IMO. As has been pointed out in other posts, his PA plate/registration expired in Nov. As a grad student he was supposed to work on becoming a resident of Washington to get in-state tuition for the 2nd year. One thing that must be done to be considered a state resident is to register one's car in Washington. That can be costly to do (at least it has been in my experience in other states) so if a plate expires pretty early in the first year of school, there's likely no reason to make the change happen the summer before when money is likely really tight. (Loan money not yet available but moving expenses like rental and utility deposits have to be paid, etc.) Other things required to establish residency besides car registration: proof person has lived in state for 12 months (rental receipts/lease or mortgage), voter registration, WA driver's license, and so on.

Establishing Residency

Please Read the Instructions Carefully Because tuition is considerably less expensive for Washington residents than out-of-state students, you should establish residency immediately after you arrive in Washington state. For questions or assistance, contact Jenny Saligumba-Graham...

gradschool.wsu.edu

As a juror, I'd have to know more about some other things in your list before deciding they meant murder-- for example, the trash thing at his parents' house is most definitely quite odd but I would not decide it meant the person was a murderer-- in my experience there are more people than you'd think out there with pretty weird OCD-type habits. (Not necessarily with OCD, but with very weird habits.)
JMO

 

[schooling]

If he used bleach it should have taken the colour out of the upholstery etc … which should be very obvious …. which would scream guilty …. That he tried to clean it … the same if he washed his clothing in bleach….

(Personally I think the clothing has been dumped somewhere … and was not the ”dark clothing” found by the Police ….. unless he really did want to be caught! )

Police could prove change in the colour of upholstery (from bleach) if they were wearing body cam at the traffic stop prior to November 13….

I am not convinced that the stabbing didn’t cause major bleeding … IMO stabbing four people with such a large knife would increase the chance of hitting a major artery …. (IMOooooo the family have been told that there was no suffering / bleeding etc to spare them the whole truth, not an actual lie, as it would have been quick,with unconsciousness prior)

I also think one person was still alive, possibly only just alive, (also MOO) when he left… the person the roommate heard crying …

I also think the fact they have the car “speeding off”, could mean that he wasn’t as careful as he may have planned, in eliminating contamination of the car with blood ….there may have been an element of panic … causing blood transfer….

I know health professionals use bleach to clean up blood, but that is because the bleach kills viruses in the blood like HIV etc … it doesn’t take the blood away or make it disappear … it just decontaminates it … IMO

I am not defending BK in any way … I am just wondering what item could possibly be in his car that would classify as exculpatory evidence??

All MOO

<modsnip>

The fact that prosecutors aren’t playing nice speaks to the defense’s fishing expedition.

Of course if/when they are entitled to the evidence (could very well be now’ish) the judge will do the right thing and grant access.

 

[schooling]

Changing his plate from PA to WA likely was meaningless IMO. As has been pointed out in other posts, his PA plate/registration expired in Nov. As a grad student he was supposed to work on becoming a resident of Washington to get in-state tuition for the 2nd year. One thing that must be done to be considered a state resident is to register one's car in Washington. That can be costly to do (at least it has been in my experience in other states) so if a plate expires pretty early in the first year of school, there's likely no reason to make the change happen the summer before when money is likely really tight. (Loan money not yet available but moving expenses like rental and utility deposits have to be paid, etc.) Other things required to establish residency besides car registration: proof person has lived in state for 12 months (rental receipts/lease or mortgage), voter registration, WA driver's license, and so on.

Establishing Residency

Please Read the Instructions Carefully Because tuition is considerably less expensive for Washington residents than out-of-state students, you should establish residency immediately after you arrive in Washington state. For questions or assistance, contact Jenny Saligumba-Graham...

gradschool.wsu.edu

As a juror, I'd have to know more about some other things in your list before deciding they meant murder-- for example, the trash thing at his parents' house is most definitely quite odd but I would not decide it meant the person was a murderer-- in my experience there are more people than you'd think out there with pretty weird OCD-type habits. (Not necessarily with OCD, but with very weird habits.)
JMO

Meaningless when considered on its own. Sure.

But when you’re the prime suspect in a quadruple murder and your car is on video heading towards and away from the crime scene…at the time the murders were purported to have happened…the plate thing is highly suspect.

BK has more incentive to change the plate and might have even purposely selected the murder date in consideration of this change.

 

[NCWatcher]

Meaningless when considered on its own. Sure.

But when you’re the prime suspect in a quadruple murder and your car is on video heading towards and away from the crime scene…at the time the murders were purported to have happened…the plate thing is highly suspect.

BK has more incentive to change the plate and might have even purposely selected the murder date in consideration of this change.

It sounds like to me we don't evaluate evidence in quite the same way.

I just can't go for the often-mentioned "totality of the evidence" approach as that approach too often seems to allow non-incriminating evidence to be made incriminating simply by grouping it with other evidence. That's not how circumstantial cases are built IMO.

For me, each piece of evidence must be gathered properly and make sense on its own. In other words, I don't consider changing a PA car registration that expired in November to a WA one to be more incriminating for BK, an accused murderer, than for any other 1st year grad student. Changing one's car registration is required in WA (and in many other states) for grad students to get in-state tuition at state schools. It makes perfect sense to me that the change was made the month the PA plate/registration expired. Heck, if he'd failed to do it, and had been stopped for expired plates, we'd be saying "See, he was so distracted by killing 4 people he forgot to deal with his expired plates!" Or if he'd done it in Oct or in Nov at the beginning of the month, we'd say "See, he was planning the crime and thought a WA plate would stand out less than a PA one!"
JMO

 

[jepop]

IMO, the trial is where we are going to see all the evidence. Till then it's just speculation BARD or no BARD or something in between. We really have no idea. Personally speaking I found the circumstantial evidence presented for Probable cause which triggered arrest very convincing for PC. But we know that's not BARD,nor was it meant to be. MOO.

edit spelling

ETA: Also personally, I think LE demonstration of conscientious due diligence, investigation of other POIS and their elimination, a demo of non-tunnel vision is going to play a role in the state's case. MOO

 

[arielilane]

Tort Claim Notices Served on Multiple State & Muni. Entities on WSU.




snipped for focus @arielilane
Thanks for your response.

I see your point, for anyone believing the phrase ---
"almost like an insurance policy.... will ensure that the children will get justice." --- is accurate.

It would be great if these Tort Claim Notices (and any ensuing civil actions) will ensure that "children will get justice" but personally doubting it. imo jmo moo ICBW.

And different people has different ideas about justice.

Bbm

Not saying I believe in it, only that I understand why it was filed, it makes sense. Besides universities are known to cover up crimes, etc.

I am going to support the families 100%.

moo

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Agreed.
Plus, how easy would it have been to cover the seat ahead of time, minimizing transfer.

It has crossed my mind more than once that the missing shower curtain would have been good for this.

 

[Swansee]

One major piece of potential evidence we know nothing about is digital trail - forensic analysis of BK computers, phone and other devices, sealed and redacted warrants for google et al.
ETA: and we actually have no idea what has come back from the elantra and/or if forensic examination is still ongoing. MOO

This is really going to be very key IMO.
Also:
There is a company called Berla that does digital forensics on cars. They can pull up really amazing details about the history of use of a given car. I went to their website and they say their programs are compatible with a significant number of Hyundais manufactured from 2011 onward. I hope such expertise can be used in the Idaho 4 case to help find out more about when/where/how Bryan Kohberger's Hyundai Elantra was used on November 13th 2022.

Meet Berla, the little-known company that can pull smartphone data from your car

Berla Corporation, a little-known Maryland-based cybersecurity company that works with and receives funding from the Department of Homeland Security.

cyberscoop.com

 

[jepop]

Bbm

Not saying I believe in it, only that I understand why it was filed, it makes sense. Besides universities are known to cover up crimes, etc.

I am going to support the families 100%.

moo

I don't know how I feel about it and that's where I'm going to stay for now. I'm not comfortable and feel a sense of foreboding but obviously that is just personal. I recognise the families involved are exercising their legitimate rights. I'm putting it out of my mind to concentrate on the case. I sincerely hope the press will drop the story soon though and move on to something else. MOO

 

[wary]

<is it> possible he just happened to change his plates 5 days after the murders from PA to WA,

<snipped for focus>

Although I agree with most of the items on your list, this one bothers me. I believe it’s been shown that that’s exactly the time frame in which he was required by law to change to WA plates. If true, this point shouldn’t even be mentioned. (I think that it weakens the whole case to mention such an easily refuted point.)

MOO

 

[U.N. Known]

Meaningless when considered on its own. Sure.

But when you’re the prime suspect in a quadruple murder and your car is on video heading towards and away from the crime scene…at the time the murders were purported to have happened…the plate thing is highly suspect.

BK has more incentive to change the plate and might have even purposely selected the murder date in consideration of this change.

Not at all. If he'd put a stolen plate on the car, maybe. He apparently did what we're all supposed to do and went to the DMV to get a WA license plate. If his PA plate wasn't expiring and/or if he "acquired" a plate elsewhere, that would be suspicious. Legally registering his car in WA still ties the PA plate to him. If LE had that PA plate number they would still be able to connect that car to him, regardless of the plate change.

 

[jepop]

<snipped for focus>

Although I agree with most of the items on your list, this one bothers me. I believe it’s been shown that that’s exactly the time frame in which he was required by law to change to WA plates. If true, this point shouldn’t even be mentioned. (I think that it weakens the whole case to mention such an easily refuted point.)

MOO

I agree. I think it's true that he was required to change plates then. I doubt it will form part of the state's case, either as evidence, context or as a possible indication of guilt/cover up post crime. The fact that he still had only one plate on the date of the crime and that SV1 is recorded in at least two instances (that we know of) in such a way that this is visible, is a point in favour of the state's case though.MOO

Edited to correct mistake.

 

[schooling]

It sounds like to me we don't evaluate evidence in quite the same way.

I just can't go for the often-mentioned "totality of the evidence" approach as that approach too often seems to allow non-incriminating evidence to be made incriminating simply by grouping it with other evidence. That's not how circumstantial cases are built IMO.

For me, each piece of evidence must be gathered properly and make sense on its own. In other words, I don't consider changing a PA car registration that expired in November to a WA one to be more incriminating for BK, an accused murderer, than for any other 1st year grad student. Changing one's car registration is required in WA (and in many other states) for grad students to get in-state tuition at state schools. It makes perfect sense to me that the change was made the month the PA plate/registration expired. Heck, if he'd failed to do it, and had been stopped for expired plates, we'd be saying "See, he was so distracted by killing 4 people he forgot to deal with his expired plates!" Or if he'd done it in Oct or in Nov at the beginning of the month, we'd say "See, he was planning the crime and thought a WA plate would stand out less than a PA one!"
JMO

IMO there’s a reason prosecutors and defense attorneys tend to try and present their cases in narrative form and along a sequential timeline.

Buying a pair of black overalls on a Saturday night means nothing when examined on its own.

Buying a pair of black overalls on a Saturday night when there’s evidence that you might have killed 4 people on Sunday……is also nothing?

Evidence doesn’t exist in silos. You’d have to ask people to believe in unbelievable amounts of coincidence for it to.

Context will always matter. So I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[NCWatcher]

IMO there’s a reason prosecutors and defense attorneys tend to try and present their cases in narrative form and along a sequential timeline.

Buying a pair of black overalls on a Saturday night means nothing when examined on its own.

Buying a pair of black overalls on a Saturday night when there’s evidence that you might have killed 4 people on Sunday……is also nothing?

Evidence doesn’t exist in silos. You’d have to ask people to believe in unbelievable amounts of coincidence for it to.

Context will always matter. So I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Where I think your analogy falls apart is that we aren't told there is any other known plausible reason Person X (or anyone else) might buy black overalls on Saturday other than he must be planning to wear them during a Sunday murder (keeping in mind we don't know if the actual murderer wore overalls but he might have.) Other circumstances are a big part of context and are important to consider before accepting any narrative.

So, if we also know Person X is in a talent ensemble that wears black overalls for one of their numbers to be performed the following week, the Saturday purchase seems meaningless. It's as meaningless for Person X as are the purchases of black overalls by all the other members of the ensemble, members who aren't later charged with murder. The license plate change falls into that category.

The PA plate expired in Nov. It had to be renewed or replaced that month with a WA plate. To receive in-state tuition in year #2, WA residency had to be established. That process includes registering any cars in WA. Hence the title was transferred and a WA plate was purchased. Perfectly logical and not incriminating in any way. Thousands of new graduate students across the US engage in similar actions every year as part of the process to obtain in-state tuition at state schools.

I see in another comment you suggest the expiration date of his license plate might have affected BK's decision to choose a November murder date. To me, that's just not credible. We can argue about exactly how smart BK is, but transferring the title and buying a new plate doesn't hide the old plate number from LE. I think most grad students would know that, especial CJ students and/or students who've had any security experience. Further, that's like saying Person X decided to murder because the ensemble decided to wear black overalls. Just not at all believable to me.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. We're 180° apart on this issue.
JMO

 

[TL4S]

I don't think the license plate change will be a major player in the trial, nor do I think BK planned the murders around the plate expiration date. However, I do wonder if BK might have taken his plates into consideration when planning the murders, and held off changing them until after for a reason. If he thought he'd cased out where cameras were located on his route, he might've used having only a rear plate to his advantage. It wasn't like he was ignorant of digital surveillance equipment, and I think he knew it was inevitable he would have to drive past some, so if he could go past a camera where only the front of the car was seen, that would be tactically advantageous. JMO. Maybe he didn't put that much thought into things, IDK.

And I still think it's possible he might have purposefully let his vehicle (and maybe rear license) get captured on cameras in Moscow and neighboring areas to the northeast of Moscow in an attempt to make it look like he was driving through on his way out, therefore placing himself somewhere else during the time of the murder. JMO.

 

[jepop]

I don't think the license plate change will be a major player in the trial, nor do I think BK planned the murders around the plate expiration date. However, I do consider that BK might have taken his plates into consideration when planning the murder, and held off changing them until after for a reason. If he thought he'd cased out where cameras were located on his route, he might've used having only a rear plate to his advantage. It wasn't like he was ignorant of digital surveillance equipment, and I think he knew it was inevitable he would have to drive past some, so if he could go past a camera where only the front of the car was seen, that would be tactically advantageous. JMO. Maybe he didn't put that much thought into things, IDK.

And I still think it's possible he might have purposefully let his vehicle (and maybe rear license) get captured on cameras in Moscow and neighboring areas to the northeast of Moscow in an attempt to make it look like he was driving through on his way out, therefore placing himself somewhere else during the time of the murder. JMO.

I remember that theory you had from way back. Although we might never ever see it proven, I think it's a really good one with a starting premise that the alleged killer was big on planning. At that time I remember I was testing out a theory that he intruded twice that night - one between 3 and 3.10am (on foot from a park off camera range) and a second at 4.04am.. After that proved impossible for a zillion reasons (timing impossible and contradicted by PCA) and I let it go, I often thought about your idea and it is one of my top possibilies now when I theorise. My other one is that he went somewhere remote east of Moscow for 15 -20 mins or so to get psychologically prepped (between c 3ish and & 3.25) and at that time also prepped his car interior and himself (gloves, mask, weopen :-(). Then he drove to to King Road via Indian Hills and Styner. This is where I conjecture his plan was frustrated and he was forced to do x 3 passes owing to lights still being on when he really expected or planned for them being out or in whatever state of low lighting that made him comfortable or indicated to him his target/s were in their beds/rooms. MOO

ETA: I forgot to mention, your theory re him thinking of ways to take advantage of the fact his elantra sported only one plate also makes perfect sense to me. He might have felt safer driving directly on Queen road at night believing any cameras would not be able to capture his plate number. Which has probably turned out to be correct. Speculation.MOO

 

[Boxer]

Okay, I'll bite. What shows me guilt, (completely outside of a courtroom) are the extreme circumstances and the many, many, many behaviors.

Not just casing the house (alleged), being in the area, time of day, supposed knife purchase, "calling card" sheath, car cleaning/ potential evidence left behind, returning to the scene the next morning, circuitous route back to Pullman, general argumentative behavior, possibly breaking and entering a colleague's home and then helping her set up security cameras (allegedly), being pulled over regularly, attitudes towards women, and I could go on and on.

This is not a preponderance of evidence (YET) but it's starting to be quite more than a molehill, and we don't even have 1/100th of the 20k pieces of evidence or 51 terabytes of data. We are 6 months into probably a 3-year process. This is all the tip of the iceberg. IMO.

Ps. Absolutely no one has mentioned the fact that he would likely have driven past the police station on his way out of town.

How do you figure his exit route? The Police Station is north on Washington?

 

[arielilane]

State of Idaho v. Bryan C. Kohberger​

Latah County CR29-22-2805

Case Summary (Updated 05/26/23)

• 05/23/2023 Court Minutes
• 05/23/2023 Notice of Hearing (Jury Trial)
• 05/23/2023 Notice of Hearing (Mr Grays Motion)
• 05/23/2023 Notice of Hearing (Motion to Compel)
• 05/23/2023 Notice of Hearing (Mr Carones Motion)
• 05/23/2023 Order Setting Briefing Schedule and Scheduling Oral Argument
• 05/23/2023 States Request for Discovery Disclosure

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest

 

[Cindizzi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1662485363531608068