4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

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  • #641
RSBM for focus
That being said, the more time passes and the more I get the feeling the prosecution (and media) has made it seem like this is an easy win, when it might not be. I have also been less than impressed with their little game of hide the ball in discovery matters, and I find Bill Thompson has come across as a little disingenuous saying "we can hand over something that doesn't exist" regarding the IGG material, only to end up having to hand it over months later, because it does exist.
I agree to some extent about MSM making it sound like this is a slam dunk, but not about the prosecution, who has been remarkably tight-lipped. That, to me, speaks volumes about how much evidence they intend to use, but they know as well as the rest of us that it is NEVER an "easy win." One juror can make all the difference.

I think there's a reason the Prosecution went to a Grand Jury for what I almost want to call "noble" reasons, but really, it was pragmatic.

The autopsy results alone, showing knifing by a KaBar knife of such brutal proportions that no one can sleep at night after reviewing them, combined with the KaBar sheath having a positive and COMPLETE match to a cheek swab from BK...pretty much probable cause right there, and some jurors will see it the same way. Some will want to make a finding and go home to their families.

The file that got handed over was so insignificant (and apparently newly obtained from the FBI - we don't know) so assuming such a small thing was held back on purpose borders on conspiracy theory to me - this happens a LOT in legal cases, both criminal and civil).

Now the Defense has quieted down, being in position of the FBI file addendum (which contains very little information if it's that small). I believe the State when it says it didn't have that file itself, initially. Now everyone has it. It probably contains even more data to put BK behind bars for life - hence, the Defense is "satisfied" (and they should definitely have had the info - but I don't think the FBI was cooperative at first; I do not blame the State for the usual practices of the FBI, who are very fussy about releasing things to anyone).

Meantime, the truly important evidence (also provided by the FBI) is the CAST and other digital analysis - which HAS been handed over. Whereupon BK waived his right to a speedy trial. And now, we will see motion after motion in the pre-trial period, as BK tries to delay the inevitable.

If the State's case was so weak, the Defense would be attacking it viciously, not nibbling at the edges with the DNA analysis issues.

I am assuming that what the FBI had compiled, in terms if IGG, is the actual pedigree of the Kohberger family - which the FBI was reluctant to release, since many of the names on it are people completely uninvolved in this crime and whose identities ought to be protected (and have been, so far as I know).

Someone had to do that pedigree work and I would guess that both Othram AND the FBI did it. The FBI would use more traditional means, not its own database per se - but the FBI can pull up genealogically relevant records with ease, and does so. Expunged crimes still exist for the FBI. All marriage, birth and death data is easily available to them. They know that BK did not have a twin who had died at birth, for example - or had lived in an adopted home.

Was this file helpful to the Defense? Yes! Because they need to know what they're up against. Of course, the file might simply be a copy (in another format) of the same data already received.

But I respect the State for keeping the gruesome details out of a preliminary hearing and do not for a minute believe that the Defense seriously thought the GJ indictment would be thrown out (they used the strategy because it's an expected strategy, but it had its downsides, too - what they got did not exonerate Kohberger, it just made it more clear that it was indeed his DNA, IMO). The risk of an appeal for prejudicing the jury pool would have been considerable and taken years to disentangle. I think the Defense knew the judge was not going to through out the GJ indictment, they just want the public to believe that the State was up to hijinx - when it was the opposite.

One reason the Defense is taking up this type of strategy is that they know they are able to, but also because there's nothing else to do be done.

Keep in mind that if the Defense had evidence or witnesses that exonerate BK, they too have to turn it over (already had to turn it over and must turn over anything new). The Judge has seen all of it. The Judge's rulings also tell a story. This is going to trial. The Judge knows which issues must be put before a jury and he can see that there is enough evidence to require a jury trial.

I'll go out on a limb and say that the Defense's delay tactics (although legally important to future appeals) may also have a downside.

Right now, the case is still very much on the minds of Latah county residents. As the Defense drags out the time toward trial, there is an innate human need for Justice to be swift, and so, people will cease trusting the Defense and start doubting everything it says and does. As we see right here on WS, where most people are very knowledgeable about crimes and criminal procedure. By remaining quiet, the State incurs no such damage.

It was a misstep, IMO, for BK's PA defense attorney to say "He's eager to go back and be exonerated." Ahem. Exoneration is a strong word. "Represent his side of the issues" would have been slightly better. As that hit the headlines, everyone watched the plane fly and then waited for BK to exonerate himself. He got a top notch legal team and did not exonerate himself.

No exoneration. None. The worst alibi I've ever seen registered with a Court. Not even a SODDI element. I will say that this is a clue that BK has said little to his defense - but he certainly did not lie to his attorneys, IMO. He could have said "I was out driving around and I saw ANOTHER white Elantra of about my year, which I noticed." He did not say that because it didn't happen. I think BK is reluctant to lie, btw, I think that's part of his personality.

Slam dunk? No. But I won't be surprised if all of 2024 passes by without a trial.

IME, at that point, the local public gets annoyed (and the chances of finding that one lone crusader who will insist that BK is innocent no matter what...are diminished...the entire set of heated emotions that exist right now will...cool). People who somehow identify with BK due to age, sex or inclination will get older. Younger people are not going to take up his cause, they will have their own current events to follow. The Defense may view this as a fairly good thing - but I see it as rolling the dice.

As awful as it sounds, it benefits the State, IMO, for the Defense to drag things out. It benefits the Defense only insofar as it sets up appeals. When I see that happen, my view is the opposite of yours. I think "Wow, he must be guilty, because they're hanging their whole case on appeal issues - lots and lots of appeal issues."

Everyone knows, deep inside, that if there were any clear cut evidence to undermine the State's case, that the Judge, and both sides now have it. Yet, the Judge is steadily moving this toward trial - inexorably, as he has signaled. He has shown fairness to the Defense, and yet, he is keeping BK in jail without bond and moving directly toward trial. By the time the trial occurs, most jurors are going to include all of the time spent (probably 2 years by then) as ample time for the Defense to find something exonerating.

Which they have not and will not, IMO. The best they can do is go for reasonable doubt - but even that is harder, when the trial takes a long time to set up (from an ordinary juror's point of view, it's common sense). I do think there will be many many motions to extend time toward trial, especially when it gets to establishing expert witnesses for the Defense.

Many will resent the time and money spent. If one juror holds out - that just means another trial in future. And second trials of this type do not usually go well for the Defense, because ALL of the evidence is splashed on the front pages. Further, the State will be able to analyze what that juror had a problem with and the jurors themselves may well make statements (indicating that they think the one juror was in error). Indeed, at that point, the State has the option of dropping the death penalty, and it's possible BK would get an entirely or partially different defense team (people leave jobs, for example). At any rate, he would be in Latah County Jail throughout this time period. There's a psychological factor for jurors in that, as well.

Meanwhile, the longer BK is in jail without being able to provide a story that even remotely makes him look not guilty, doesn't help him at all. If he has a story to tell about how the sheath got his DNA without his ever touching it, he needs to do that right now and the Judge needs to hear it. If it's only BK's story and there's no evidence to hand over to the Court, then BK has to prepare to take the stand.

And that will not go well, IMO. The State's case will be stated both narrowly, succinctly, and broadly, in excruciating detail. What, actually will be the defense? "He was out driving around" is not a great thing to establish in the minds of jurors, IMO.

These are the opinions of a long time court/trial watcher, jury consultant and student of jails and prisons. Also 25 years of working for law firms, DA's and PD's - I've worked for both sides.

IMO.



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  • #642
I think you mean the CARE of? Because my eyebrows shot up above my hairline like Penfold's at the thought of case evidence just being in the back of a bailiff's car, with the spare and the jerry can...

MOO
SHEESH, yes CARE of.

I would be surprised if the Latah County Courthouse doesn't have the typical vault-like room wherein evidence is stored neatly in its own bins, drawers, trays, and areas. That sheath is in a safe deposit box like place, in sterile wrappings, IMO.
 
  • #643
I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for but this talks about New Hampshire getting the latest and greatest, which clearly ID would not have yet as this is so new, first in the nation and not expected to be up and running until the end of the year:

I'm not sure why you think this new equipment would make any difference in this case. Per the article, the new equipment's claim to fame is being able to get results from degraded samples such as those exposed to the elements, or separating a small amount of male DNA from a large amount of female DNA. There is also hope that this new equipment will allow LE to separate DNA mixtures from as many as four people. I won't mention the grim reasons that occurred to me where that could be helpful. The article doesn't mention whether any other equipment offers these features individually, or whether only this equipment offers any of them at all. They do appear to be excellent improvements, and much needed advances, but none of them appear to apply to this case. At least IMO.
 
  • #644
Did anyone here actually watch the vigil last night? Some very interesting information was revealed by
Zanna, one of the speakers. Highly recommend watching the vigil, would be interested in people's reactions to what Zanna said at 20:20 approximately.


About waking up to the news?
 
  • #645
I don't trust Blum very much, but if it was 20 cells, that's plenty. You're quoting research using just one (slightly outdated) technology (and it was designed to be portable). In a case like this, you don't use the technology mentioned in the article you linked. The person who is the lead author on your article is someone who designs and tests technology in Australia, apparently with a view towards portable and not super-expensive. This is not equipment that would be standard in a state lab in Idaho, I assume they have a stationary sequencer.

Any good forensic lab (like ISL or the ones in Washington) would NOT use this flourescent technique, it's far too likely to use up cells and not be conclusive on all of them. But flourescent techniques have their uses - out in the field.

If it was a partial profile, then LE and ISL lied in the PCA, IMO. Their words have a standard meaning in science (as I keep saying). Are you claiming that ISL lied? Or are they just super-incompetent in your view?

Still waiting to hear why you believe any part of the sheath (including swabs) were sent outside of Idaho. I find that very hard to believe and again, if you have a link on that, that's astonishing new news (to this group, anyway). You are asserting as fact something that to my knowledge has never been reported in MSM or by LE.

They used Othram and the FBI for genetic genealogy, not to examine the sheath or the swabs. They sent a digital file to those places, not the sheath. Indeed, the Defense would be howling about this, had they - instead, the Defense is all worked up about a small DIGITAL file, a matter of formatting - not chain of custody at all. They sent what was basically a document to Othram and the FBI. Othram, by the way, is state of the art and *does* have a wet lab - it just wasn't used in this case (and isn't often used by LE, especially when there is already an STR profile done in a standard lab method.

IMO.
This not about DNA but a search for a place in the process for the defense to object on constitutional grounds.


The DNA is Kohnergers as confirmed by cheek swab.
 
  • #646
  • #647
I'm not sure why you think this new equipment would make any difference in this case. Per the article, the new equipment's claim to fame is being able to get results from degraded samples such as those exposed to the elements, or separating a small amount of male DNA from a large amount of female DNA. There is also hope that this new equipment will allow LE to separate DNA mixtures from as many as four people. I won't mention the grim reasons that occurred to me where that could be helpful. The article doesn't mention whether any other equipment offers these features individually, or whether only this equipment offers any of them at all. They do appear to be excellent improvements, and much needed advances, but none of them appear to apply to this case. At least IMO.
You beat me to it and saved me a reply. A good reminder to try and always check the actual content of a linked source to ascertain its actual relevance to the point being made.Moo
 
  • #648
Did anyone here actually watch the vigil last night? Some very interesting information was revealed by
Zanna, one of the speakers. Highly recommend watching the vigil, would be interested in people's reactions to what Zanna said at 20:20 approximately.


Yeah I heard it morning of not afternoon. Might have been in the very inner circle that got called quickly, discussions of notifications between friends has popped up a lot but not been confirmed. Without throwing shade to authorities, I'm thinking that if they called after 11:30 there must have been a mad scramble of students freaking out and texting each other, University officials reacting protectively, and the actual response and declaration time of deaths. It could simply be that she remembered it as morning of and I don't recall the exact time the alert went out. Anyone? Hang on I just answered my own question and found it at 1:04 p.m.

I'm not saying they doctored the call in time but I wonder if the officials sort of agreed to figure it out before announcing it to the public for a short time. Maybe they took a beat. Not going to lie, that bothers me but I don't think it necessarily blows up the case. JMOO
 
  • #649
The 911 call from 1122 King Rd came at 11:58am.
 
  • #650
College kids regularly sleep until noon. I don't find it odd that she said she woke up that morning to the news. To her, it could be that it was morning because that is when she first woke up.
 
  • #651
This not about DNA but a search for a place in the process for the defense to object on constitutional grounds.


The DNA is Kohnergers as confirmed by cheek swab.
Yes. The processing/analysis/matching of the DNA on the sheath to BK and the IGG that generated the lead are two distinct and separate things. To my knowledge, the defense is not arguing about the former. The defense is excellent and I'm pretty sure if they had issues with the processing/analysis/matching they'd be fighting it. The fact that they're not increases my confidence the DNA on the sheath is a solid match to BK.
 
  • #652
College kids regularly sleep until noon. I don't find it odd that she said she woke up that morning to the news. To her, it could be that it was morning because that is when she first woke up.
<modsnip> Even if Zanna woke up at 12 noon, that still would not explain all the text messages and calls to her phone while she was asleep. These would have had to occur BEFORE she awoke and BEFORE anyone else except LE and DM, <modsnip> should have known about 1122 King Rd.
 
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  • #653
I don't think that the defense team will vilify the surviving roommates, but I am sure they will be questioned extensively by the defense, as one would expect.

You don't think the defense will ask them about partying, male DNA in the house or drinking? Whether they had knowledge of potentially violent boyfriends? Break-ups?

Maybe not. I'm not as confident as you are, though. I hope you're right.

Why would the defense not ask these things, though? Don't they want to create reasonable doubt? Won't they surely ask how DM could hear strange noises and see a masked stranger in the house and be terrified - per the PCA - but not call 911? It seems to me that they have to ask her that.

Maybe "vilify" is too strong a word, but I would be surprised if that's how DM (and those who love and care about her) will feel. I would feel that way, if she were my daughter and a victim of this terrible event.

Surely they'll ask about drinking, in order to cast doubt on her testimony. Fortunately, she gave it before Kohberger's arrest.

Hopefully, the State will call her first and walk her through the part where she calls for help and the door to Xana's room is finally opened, as while not "vilifying" it's stomach-wrenchingly traumatic to recount. But the jury has to hear it.

IMO
 
  • #654
I'm not sure why you think this new equipment would make any difference in this case. Per the article, the new equipment's claim to fame is being able to get results from degraded samples such as those exposed to the elements, or separating a small amount of male DNA from a large amount of female DNA. There is also hope that this new equipment will allow LE to separate DNA mixtures from as many as four people. I won't mention the grim reasons that occurred to me where that could be helpful. The article doesn't mention whether any other equipment offers these features individually, or whether only this equipment offers any of them at all. They do appear to be excellent improvements, and much needed advances, but none of them appear to apply to this case. At least IMO.

The problem is that one poster is comparing PORTABLE FLUORESCENT DNA sequencing equipment from Australia, for use in entirely different circumstances to the lab equipment used in nearly all forensic labs in the US - in 2015 or any other year.

Stationary sequencers are quite sophisticated. IOW< they work better than methods that rely on enzymes and flouresence. The article posted here to insist that more cells are needed is based on using a portable sequencer. This is tech designed to accompany the use of Amido black or Luminol or other blood-detecting equipment. The key thing people wnat to know immediately at a crime scene is:

is this human or is this non-human DNA??

That cannot be determined by Luminol. So the type of technology mentioned in that article is designed for that field purpose. The author (who, I believe is involved in engineering such equipment) is making the claim that this new gadget can do way more than just say "It's human." It might be possible, under certain circumstances, to use such a device to get a partial - or even full - profile (if there are enough cells). It's a juried article so that the manufacturer of the equipment can make a valid claim about it.

I have posted several articles about DNA retrieval with no cells at all. And I have stated that this type of analysis is not always possible AND that it is very time consuming and expensive, and I do not know of any state forensics labs that use that technology - although perhaps it's available on contract in the larger states. Cells are not needed to extract DNA from ancient bones. I have tried to explain it.

No such technology was needed in this case. We cannot know the number of cells necessary to each piece of equipment in the US - but we do know that there were epithelial cells of Bryan Kohberger on the sheath. There are probably more of them on the sheath, but it would require destructive testing to get at them - and only the Defense would ask for that.

And they have not. Because they know it's his DNA. Everyone knows it's his DNA. That's not in dispute. The whole issue with the motion was about genetic genealogy, not machines, cells and DNA.


IMO. This is a complete distraction but an educational one, I suppose.
 
  • #655
You don't think the defense will ask them about partying, male DNA in the house or drinking? Whether they had knowledge of potentially violent boyfriends? Break-ups?

Maybe not. I'm not as confident as you are, though. I hope you're right.

Why would the defense not ask these things, though? Don't they want to create reasonable doubt? Won't they surely ask how DM could hear strange noises and see a masked stranger in the house and be terrified - per the PCA - but not call 911? It seems to me that they have to ask her that.

Maybe "vilify" is too strong a word, but I would be surprised if that's how DM (and those who love and care about her) will feel. I would feel that way, if she were my daughter and a victim of this terrible event.

Surely they'll ask about drinking, in order to cast doubt on her testimony. Fortunately, she gave it before Kohberger's arrest.

Hopefully, the State will call her first and walk her through the part where she calls for help and the door to Xana's room is finally opened, as while not "vilifying" it's stomach-wrenchingly traumatic to recount. But the jury has to hear it.

IMO

Of course the defense will want to establish the mental state of the surviving students, as well as events at the house that evening and early morning, etc. But I don't see this in any way as "vilifying" the surviving students. Just what one would expect from the defense inn any trial, especially a death penalty trial.
 
  • #656
<modsnip> Even if Zanna woke up at 12 noon, that still would not explain all the text messages and calls to her phone while she was asleep. These would have had to occur BEFORE she awoke and BEFORE anyone else except LE and DM, <modsnip> should have known about 1122 King Rd.
<modsnip - quoted post was snipped>. If the housemates called friends first, and the 911 call was made at 11:58, then it makes perfect sense to me that she received calls or texts before noon. I work with college kids all the time. This tracks for me. I would expect the defense to be all over this if her timeline is off. I also would expect that any and all professionals associated with this case would know when what calls were made and they would have checked it out by now.
 
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  • #657
  • #658
College kids regularly sleep until noon. I don't find it odd that she said she woke up that morning to the news. To her, it could be that it was morning because that is when she first woke up.

<modsnip - quoted post was snipped>. If the housemates called friends first, and the 911 call was made at 11:58, then it makes perfect sense to me that she received calls or texts before noon. I work with college kids all the time. This tracks for me. I would expect the defense to be all over this if her timeline is off. I also would expect that any and all professionals associated with this case would know when what calls were made and they would have checked it out by now.

The timeline of the 911 call doesn't bother me. I don't believe authorities were dishonest or incorrect about that. What bothers me, if true, is if students knew about it in the morning. I'd want to know what time friends showed up. MSM report of the front door of the house being open at 8:30 am has always bugged.

JMO
 
  • #659
  • #660
<modsnip> Even if Zanna woke up at 12 noon, that still would not explain all the text messages and calls to her phone while she was asleep. These would have had to occur BEFORE she awoke and BEFORE anyone else except LE and DM, <modsnip> should have known about 1122 King Rd.

What makes you think the messages were about murders? Did DM actually say that at the vigil?

Might the texts not have been more general, if someone expected to meet up with any one of the four that morning?

Did she really reveal the content of the texts? Do you have a timestamp for that particular thing?

TIA. My impression of the social world of college students is that they text each other (from inside the same house or across town or across the nation). Sunday morning is the best time to meet up, to talk about the events of Friday and Saturday (parties both nights) and to take leave of Kayleigh, who was going away indefinitely. Many friends probably had the numbers of everyone who lived in the house.

Anyone else watch the whole video? I'm not able to, today. Why isn't News Nation reporting on it? It seems like this is HUGE. Until I learn more, I'm going with "texts and messages arrived on DM's silenced phone during the morning" which is not surprising. If someone was trying to get hold of Ethan, for example, that would explain why DM goes up to that door at around 11:30.

I see no evidence that a crowd had already gathered outside or that news of murder was spreading at 9 am. Would love to know exactly where this timeline-changing bombshell is coming from. I raised two daughters and currently have a teen granddaughter. Their phones were/are routinely blown up with texts when they get up in the morning (including school mornings, actually). My students mention the same thing. It's much more common than actual phone calls, but those happen if texts aren't answered.

IMO. Or am I totally misunderstanding something about what DM said?
 
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