A New Look at Intruder Theories

[Jane Osa]

the point is why lie? The gist of the lie usually points to what one wants to hide - a good starting point with the Ramseys. It's fine if Jonbenet gets pineapple sometime during the night, but the pineapple is the Ramseys pineapple in their own bowl - the question is 'why deny it'? If they are culpable in their daughter's death then every instant of a lie is a link to the 'why' of her death - the 'why' being equivalent, more or less, to the why of her death - which is the motive.

One by one their lies need to be seen as their means to defense (and an end)- their lies leave clues as to what happened via what they are intent on hiding.

 

[BBB167893]

Long time, no see, Jane Osa.

Very well-put.

 

[Chrishope]

It's very hard to look at this from IDI perspective, because IDI never really makes any sense.

But if we are going to try this exercise, then we may have to accept that some things don't make sense, and/or, the R's reacted the way they did for reasons that RDIs don't readily accept.

Possibly the denial about pineapple was simply a reaction by people who knew the police suspected them of killing their own daughter. They reacted the way people do when they feel trapped. (You gotta work with me on this, otherwise IDI just goes nowhere) So rather than hiding something, you have to see the R's lies as simply rejection of facts that seem to point at them, and which the Rs cannot explain. The R's can't explain JBR eating pineapple because they didn't know she had eaten it. Faced with the contradiction between the coroner's findings and their story, their minds simply couldn't comprehend the chain of events, so they do what is simple - deny.

There's little doubt about prior assault - we know that from the vaginal trauma and the erroded hymen. But the prior assault doesn't have to have been from JR. It doesn't necessarily have to have been from the killer either. We know bad things were done to her prior to the night of her death (or at least we know there is a high probability) but we dont' know who did it.

Again, we've got to work at this, otherwise IDI theory stops dead in it's tracks. Basically one has to think about what is possible, rather than what is probable.

 

[DeeDee249]

I often wonder if today's methods in forensic science could have gotten DNA or prints from her eroded hymen, vaginal bruising or abrasions. Now, give me DNA or prints from THOSE areas- and we have our perp, because no amount of common wiping, bathing or cleansing of a child erodes a hymen.

 

[BBB167893]

I often wonder if today's methods in forensic science could have gotten DNA or prints from her eroded hymen, vaginal bruising or abrasions. Now, give me DNA or prints from THOSE areas- and we have our perp, because no amount of common wiping, bathing or cleansing of a child erodes a hymen.

Agreed. Maybe they should exhume her body after all.

 

[coloradokares]

Agreed. Maybe they should exhume her body after all.

Maybe they should but my heart would not bear the thought of that. Not when Logic tells us we know the who's we are only missing the proor of in what order did things transpire .

 

[BBB167893]

Yeah, I know. Too many wild geese have been chased already.

 

[DeeDee249]

Agreed. Maybe they should exhume her body after all.

Probably too late. Much of the soft tissue would be gone by now, especially in a climate like Atlanta, Georgia.

 

[BBB167893]

Okay, since Holdon asked me nicely, I'll humor him here. He asked me to profile an intruder suspect, so here goes:

Using what I know, for the sake of argument: I'm afraid I still can't go along with your notion that it really was a foreign faction, nor do I think it was some random stranger. Hope that's all right. My intruder suspect is a man, full grown, anywhere from 25-50 years old (not really important) who knew JBR and her family. For talking sake, we will call him "Norman." (As in Norman Bates.)
He knew them well enough that he didn't set off any alarm bells. But he secretly had an unhealthy interest in JB. He killed her because he was afraid, afraid that if she went on the trip after Christmas she would get brave enough to tell her family about his obsession and what he was doing to her and he'd never see her again. In his mind, her parents didn't really "love" her, he did! He wasn't going to let them ruin their "love." So if he couldn't have her, nobody would. He would shut her up once and for all, and make sure her parents would suffer for not "loving" her. He wanted to save her from them. That's how I figure he justified it in his mind. It also might explain why the note seemed so angry at JR. "Serves you right for not appreciating her! You think all that money makes you better than me?"

Okay, that covers motive, from that perspective. Now here's the nitty-gritty. I think he knew their schedule. He used a key to get in. Maybe he was given one, maybe he stole one, maybe he copied it. Regardless, he was there while they were gone. He knew the place well enough to get around smoothly. He wrote the note. He had been practicing PR's writing, just to make it really bitter. Then he waited in one spot so her wouldn't go banging around the house. Maybe he was under her bed. Once they were all asleep (or when he couldn't hear anyone else moving around), he came out. He woke JB up gently. He said he'd like to "play" for a while. She said okay, but she was hungry. He decided to take her to the kitchen and let her pick what she wanted. She saw the pineapple dish and had to have it. Lifting her up by her waist, he held her high enough so she could pick some out with her hands, not actually touching the bowl. He took her back to her bedroom. Since the pineapple had digested, which would take a while (1-1/2-to-2 hours) he had to do something that would account for that time. So they decided to play their "special game." Without going into too much detail, he molested her for the next hour or so. But this time he was too rough. He made her bleed. He took the little underwear off of her and put the big ones on. He apologized for being so rough on her. He kept the little pair. After they finished their game, she had to go potty. She did, while he prepared himself for the endgame. He put her back into bed, saying he'd make sure she got to sleep all right. She turned over onto her stomach. WHAM! She never knew what hit her. He had used a heavy-duty flashlight he had with him. He could have left right there. But he figured to make an artwork out of her. He tied her wrists. But that wasn't good enough, so he strangled her as well. He made sure to pull it deep so it wouldn't come off too easily. He took a piece of tape off the back of one of her dolls and put it on her mouth. A work of art, "Norman" thought. Her parents will always remember her this way, and I can always imagine what they will look like when they do. Since it wouldn't do to just leave her there, he decides to really torture them. Make her hard to find. Let them think she's still alive for a while. It'll make it all the better when they realize she was under their noses the whole time. He took her down to the basement and left her there. He dug a blanket out of the dryer to wrap her up like a Christmas gift. The perfect Christmas gift for her parents, he thought. And he slipped away into the darkness. Whatever became of "Norman" after that is lost to history.

PHEW!

Okay, Holdon. I told you there would be two conditions. Coming here to do it was one of them. Now it's time for number two. Now you have to humor me. Now you have to come up with an RDI scenario. Doesn't matter who it is. It has to be the one you can believe. I hope you're game, because I'd hate to think I wasted all of this effort.

 

[coloradokares]

PHEW!

Okay, Holdon. I told you there would be two conditions. Coming here to do it was one of them. Now it's time for number two. Now you have to humor me. Now you have to come up with an RDI scenario. Doesn't matter who it is. It has to be the one you can believe. I hope you're game, because I'd hate to think I wasted all of this effort.

I would really like to see that Holdon can envision as detaild a RDI scenario as you presented to him. Perhape, if so once and for all they can see we really have seriously reflected on ALL possibilities and each time we are left with our firm belief that no one else could have done what was done to JonBenet.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Okay, since Holdon asked me nicely, I'll humor him here. He asked me to profile an intruder suspect, so here goes:

Using what I know, for the sake of argument: I'm afraid I still can't go along with your notion that it really was a foreign faction, nor do I think it was some random stranger. Hope that's all right. My intruder suspect is a man, full grown, anywhere from 25-50 years old (not really important) who knew JBR and her family. For talking sake, we will call him "Norman." (As in Norman Bates.)
He knew them well enough that he didn't set off any alarm bells. But he secretly had an unhealthy interest in JB. He killed her because he was afraid, afraid that if she went on the trip after Christmas she would get brave enough to tell her family about his obsession and what he was doing to her and he'd never see her again. In his mind, her parents didn't really "love" her, he did! He wasn't going to let them ruin their "love." So if he couldn't have her, nobody would. He would shut her up once and for all, and make sure her parents would suffer for not "loving" her. He wanted to save her from them. That's how I figure he justified it in his mind. It also might explain why the note seemed so angry at JR. "Serves you right for not appreciating her! You think all that money makes you better than me?"

Okay, that covers motive, from that perspective. Now here's the nitty-gritty. I think he knew their schedule. He used a key to get in. Maybe he was given one, maybe he stole one, maybe he copied it. Regardless, he was there while they were gone. He knew the place well enough to get around smoothly. He wrote the note. He had been practicing PR's writing, just to make it really bitter. Then he waited in one spot so her wouldn't go banging around the house. Maybe he was under her bed. Once they were all asleep (or when he couldn't hear anyone else moving around), he came out. He woke JB up gently. He said he'd like to "play" for a while. She said okay, but she was hungry. He decided to take her to the kitchen and let her pick what she wanted. She saw the pineapple dish and had to have it. Lifting her up by her waist, he held her high enough so she could pick some out with her hands, not actually touching the bowl. He took her back to her bedroom. Since the pineapple had digested, which would take a while (1-1/2-to-2 hours) he had to do something that would account for that time. So they decided to play their "special game." Without going into too much detail, he molested her for the next hour or so. But this time he was too rough. He made her bleed. He took the little underwear off of her and put the big ones on. He apologized for being so rough on her. He kept the little pair. After they finished their game, she had to go potty. She did, while he prepared himself for the endgame. He put her back into bed, saying he'd make sure she got to sleep all right. She turned over onto her stomach. WHAM! She never knew what hit her. He had used a heavy-duty flashlight he had with him. He could have left right there. But he figured to make an artwork out of her. He tied her wrists. But that wasn't good enough, so he strangled her as well. He made sure to pull it deep so it wouldn't come off too easily. He took a piece of tape off the back of one of her dolls and put it on her mouth. A work of art, "Norman" thought. Her parents will always remember her this way, and I can always imagine what they will look like when they do. Since it wouldn't do to just leave her there, he decides to really torture them. Make her hard to find. Let them think she's still alive for a while. It'll make it all the better when they realize she was under their noses the whole time. He took her down to the basement and left her there. He dug a blanket out of the dryer to wrap her up like a Christmas gift. The perfect Christmas gift for her parents, he thought. And he slipped away into the darkness. Whatever became of "Norman" after that is lost to history.

PHEW!

Okay, Holdon. I told you there would be two conditions. Coming here to do it was one of them. Now it's time for number two. Now you have to humor me. Now you have to come up with an RDI scenario. Doesn't matter who it is. It has to be the one you can believe. I hope you're game, because I'd hate to think I wasted all of this effort.

What I asked for was a criminal profile from you that excludes a household member, based on the crime scene evidence.

I think your answer was: My intruder suspect is a man, full grown, anywhere from 25-50 years old (not really important) who knew JBR and her family. This appears to be the extent of your criminal profile from the detailed scenario you provided. Implied from your scenario is that the suspect is an active pedophile.

How do you support your profile from crime scene evidence? Its not that I disagree, I'm just curious. You can elaborate more on this profile too, if you want. Also if you wouldn't mind sharing your idea on where Mr. N got his cord?

Only for the sake of conversation, I'll say that the only RDI scenario I would've ever bought into was a coverup of abuse by JR. However, that was then and this is now. I read the letter from the DA to JR for the first time yesterday and it was as I had already suspected: the DNA very likely was not placed in those areas innocently. Its damning evidence for the intruder, whoever the intruder is.

The DNA is not the only reason I would toss the scenario. LE stated that JR didn't pen the note, and I firmly believed PR would never 'go along' with any JBR homicide coverup scheme. I never seriously considered PR a suspect.

 

[coloradokares]

Super Dave you have been had. You gave it your best shot. HOTYH did not even give it a thoughtful consideration. At least you get an A for effort.

 

[sandraladeda]

HOTYH, I have to say I am disappointed, if not surprised that you would be so dismissive of SD's effort to play along with an IDI scenario.

It is frustrating that you seem to have an entrenched position (IDI) that is not open to logic. it would be nice for you to say once in awhile, "good point, I have no answer for that".

To be a "sleuther" does not mean pick a side and defend it to the death, but to consider every clue to get at the truth. A true sleuther is open to having their mind changed.

SD put more thought and factual information into a IDI scenario for you than you put into even your own IDI scenario (see Sticky: Members' Theories) - that "theory" has holes galore!

imho

 

[sandraladeda]

Super Dave you have been had. You gave it your best shot. HOTYH did not even give it a thoughtful consideration. At least you get an A for effort.

Yes, SuperDave, excellent effort.

 

[sandraladeda]

Because we cannot comment on members' theories on the members' theories thread, I have cut and paste our resident IDI's theory here on this IDI thread so we can discuss it.

His theory is in bold italics, my responses are in red.

Hotyhat's Theory

As this IDI sees it, a rich man, maybe richer than JR, coveted JBR. He is foreign, both culturally and politically. He explained to JR his 'ideological justification' for kidnapping JBR in the form of a long ransom note.
What is your evidence for it being a rich man? What is your evidence for him being foreign - cuz his RN said so? Is "rich covetous man" your profile of the killer?

He used a ransom ruse to keep investigators off the track of a rich person.
Because....investigators would, in the absence of a RN, assume the perp was rich? :waitasec:

He and/or his agents spent a lot of money planning and carrying out the kidnapping.
Spent a lot of money on...what? First class airfare to Boulder in prime season? What is your evidence of lots of money spent?

While getting JBR ready for the car (blanket, tape, 2nd ligature), she managed to scream. They felt the kidnapping was then compromised, and there was then too much risk of exposing the rich man to move JBR from the house to the car. Instead they strangled her. They added the headbash so she could not be revived to expose her attackers.
Soo, the kindnapping was compromised by her scream, time to go to plan b, which is hang around the house longer and sexually assault her with a paintbrush?

What is real: garrote strangulation, 2nd ligature, headbash, blanket, tape, foreign faction that disrepects US and doesn't like fat cats, two gentlemen plus author, and late night scream

What is fake: the ransom part: 'get 118,000,' 'we will call tomorrow'

And what about the panty changing?
And the pineapple?

Let's think this through....

 

[Chrishope]

He and/or his agents spent a lot of money planning and carrying out the kidnapping.


Duct tape is expensive in CO.

In some posts HOTYH gives himself away. He's not serious about his IDI theories, he's just seeing if he can get anyone to swallow any part of it.

 

[Tadpole12]

Okay, since Holdon asked me nicely, I'll humor him here. He asked me to profile an intruder suspect, so here goes:

Using what I know, for the sake of argument: I'm afraid I still can't go along with your notion that it really was a foreign faction, nor do I think it was some random stranger. Hope that's all right. My intruder suspect is a man, full grown, anywhere from 25-50 years old (not really important) who knew JBR and her family. For talking sake, we will call him "Norman." (As in Norman Bates.)
He knew them well enough that he didn't set off any alarm bells. But he secretly had an unhealthy interest in JB. He killed her because he was afraid, afraid that if she went on the trip after Christmas she would get brave enough to tell her family about his obsession and what he was doing to her and he'd never see her again. In his mind, her parents didn't really "love" her, he did! He wasn't going to let them ruin their "love." So if he couldn't have her, nobody would. He would shut her up once and for all, and make sure her parents would suffer for not "loving" her. He wanted to save her from them. That's how I figure he justified it in his mind. It also might explain why the note seemed so angry at JR. "Serves you right for not appreciating her! You think all that money makes you better than me?"

Okay, that covers motive, from that perspective. Now here's the nitty-gritty. I think he knew their schedule. He used a key to get in. Maybe he was given one, maybe he stole one, maybe he copied it. Regardless, he was there while they were gone. He knew the place well enough to get around smoothly. He wrote the note. He had been practicing PR's writing, just to make it really bitter. Then he waited in one spot so her wouldn't go banging around the house. Maybe he was under her bed. Once they were all asleep (or when he couldn't hear anyone else moving around), he came out. He woke JB up gently. He said he'd like to "play" for a while. She said okay, but she was hungry. He decided to take her to the kitchen and let her pick what she wanted. She saw the pineapple dish and had to have it. Lifting her up by her waist, he held her high enough so she could pick some out with her hands, not actually touching the bowl. He took her back to her bedroom. Since the pineapple had digested, which would take a while (1-1/2-to-2 hours) he had to do something that would account for that time. So they decided to play their "special game." Without going into too much detail, he molested her for the next hour or so. But this time he was too rough. He made her bleed. He took the little underwear off of her and put the big ones on. He apologized for being so rough on her. He kept the little pair. After they finished their game, she had to go potty. She did, while he prepared himself for the endgame. He put her back into bed, saying he'd make sure she got to sleep all right. She turned over onto her stomach. WHAM! She never knew what hit her. He had used a heavy-duty flashlight he had with him. He could have left right there. But he figured to make an artwork out of her. He tied her wrists. But that wasn't good enough, so he strangled her as well. He made sure to pull it deep so it wouldn't come off too easily. He took a piece of tape off the back of one of her dolls and put it on her mouth. A work of art, "Norman" thought. Her parents will always remember her this way, and I can always imagine what they will look like when they do. Since it wouldn't do to just leave her there, he decides to really torture them. Make her hard to find. Let them think she's still alive for a while. It'll make it all the better when they realize she was under their noses the whole time. He took her down to the basement and left her there. He dug a blanket out of the dryer to wrap her up like a Christmas gift. The perfect Christmas gift for her parents, he thought. And he slipped away into the darkness. Whatever became of "Norman" after that is lost to history.

PHEW!

Okay, Holdon. I told you there would be two conditions. Coming here to do it was one of them. Now it's time for number two. Now you have to humor me. Now you have to come up with an RDI scenario. Doesn't matter who it is. It has to be the one you can believe. I hope you're game, because I'd hate to think I wasted all of this effort.

Hi SuperDave.

That's a very 'chilling' read, espec. accentuated with an image of the NB character .....

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Because we cannot comment on members' theories on the members' theories thread, I have cut and paste our resident IDI's theory here on this IDI thread so we can discuss it.

His theory is in bold italics, my responses are in red.

Hotyhat's Theory

As this IDI sees it, a rich man, maybe richer than JR, coveted JBR. He is foreign, both culturally and politically. He explained to JR his 'ideological justification' for kidnapping JBR in the form of a long ransom note.
What is your evidence for it being a rich man? What is your evidence for him being foreign - cuz his RN said so? Is "rich covetous man" your profile of the killer?

He used a ransom ruse to keep investigators off the track of a rich person.
Because....investigators would, in the absence of a RN, assume the perp was rich? :waitasec:

He and/or his agents spent a lot of money planning and carrying out the kidnapping.
Spent a lot of money on...what? First class airfare to Boulder in prime season? What is your evidence of lots of money spent?

While getting JBR ready for the car (blanket, tape, 2nd ligature), she managed to scream. They felt the kidnapping was then compromised, and there was then too much risk of exposing the rich man to move JBR from the house to the car. Instead they strangled her. They added the headbash so she could not be revived to expose her attackers.
Soo, the kindnapping was compromised by her scream, time to go to plan b, which is hang around the house longer and sexually assault her with a paintbrush?

What is real: garrote strangulation, 2nd ligature, headbash, blanket, tape, foreign faction that disrepects US and doesn't like fat cats, two gentlemen plus author, and late night scream

What is fake: the ransom part: 'get 118,000,' 'we will call tomorrow'

And what about the panty changing?
And the pineapple?

Let's think this through....

OK, but I'm not sure you'll appreciate where I'm coming from.

Its pretty obvious that most RDI circumvent the obvious, as if they are 'not to be fooled' by 'all the staging'. If it does turn out to be a rich, foreign person, then all the time wasted by circumvention and lynch-mob mentality only cost JBR justice.



My premise is to take everything as it appears, unless there is a valid, fact-based reason to discount it. The only thing that I have been able to discount is the ransom part. That is because:

1. The amount of 118K is less than JR could've afforded. The amount seems not credible.
2. JBR was found dead in the basement. A real ransom kidnapper would've taken JBR alive or dead, in an effort to gain the ransom.
3. Ransom kidnappings don't happen very often. Its too hard these days to get away with cash without getting caught. It sounded more like an old movie plot.
4. JBR had injuries not consistent with a ransom kidnapper, who if caught probably wouldn't want other charges.

Everything else is as it seems, IMO. I don't think you've got any argument that it was not a rich foreign person. Whereas I have an argument that it was not ransom related. See what I mean? In my view, JBR was brutally murdered by someone who is also capable of depicting graphic violence on children in words.

If FFDI, without local help, then it was expensive because SFF would need to 'case the joint' first, and have high confidence of JR's schedule and knowledge of the inside of the house. If it was expensive, then probably funded by a rich person.

Who says child killers can't be rich and foreign? Is that a new rule?

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi HOTYH.

I was just reading an 2005 thread, Perp obsessed with violence..... http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22585

very interesting discussion of distiction between the terms 'garrotte' and 'ligature' ...and .... noticed you were on forum back then ...

so if I may ask you ... is there a 'personality profile' for AE and AEA fetishists? referenced in this forum?

Did JR comment that the killer would be a pedophile experienced with autoerotic asphyxiation?

edited to add:

ooops ...sorry ...nevermind ....found a thread on AEA.

 

[Ames]

Probably too late. Much of the soft tissue would be gone by now, especially in a climate like Atlanta, Georgia.

I wonder though, if the humidity would have gotten to the tissue in an airtight coffin?