Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #175

[Ravenmoon]

Can you point to where in any sort of legal code, procedure, or standards where it indicates a lawyer is not to take any personal days during a pretrial and that they must clear all appointments at the demand of the judge for non-urgent matters?
Or are there separate rules for B&R?

How are we impeding the judge from doing her job?
Also, is it the job of a judge to disregard the established court procedures?


Having an attorney present doesn't mean that B&R aren't going to be there. Hennessy will be there to represent them. This is a due process right they are guaranteed under the Indiana procedures for Indirect Criminal Contempt. (see below: "representation by counsel")

This is the proper process as well according to Indiana's rules (a new, separate cause of action with a special judge).
View attachment 481371

https://www.in.gov/courts/iocs/files/pubs-contempt-procedure-benchcard.pdf

SBM - I don't know what is standard, but there is only 14 days between the filing by NM on 1/29 and the hearing set by JG on 2/12.

No. I can't point out anything that states legally an attorney cannot take time off.

Ethically and morally I would hope that RA's attorneys would choose to be there for their poor, mistreated and totally innocent client.


JMO

 

[photographer4]

What I want to know more about is how BB mistaked this car for a light-colored '65 Comet like her dad used to drive. I wonder if LE were able to determine if that sighting was in the same spot, but on a different day. The Smart car or purple PT Cruiser I can kind of let pass, but BB's description is so vastly different.

How do they even account for her description being SOOO different to RA's car? In year, make, model, colour.... That seems... significant, no?

 

[TL4S]

How do they even account for her description being SOOO different to RA's car? In year, make, model, colour.... That seems... significant, no?

They don't account for it. TLi simply omitted it from the PCA, per the FM. See how easy that works?

 

[photographer4]

It's also ALL about the girls recieving justice. Don't forget there's a prosecution going on at trial as well as a defense. The prosecution are lawyers for the victims, the families, the community and the State. You can't have a one-sided trial for murder. It's all about prosecuting the defendant with enough facts/evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. It's about a double murder of children. You cannot remove them from the mix and say it's all about the defendant's innocence. His faith and the girl's deaths are tied in a trial. AJMO

I'd like to reiterate here that I don't know if RA is guilty or not. I wasn't there. I'm not advocating that he is innocent - only that there should be an assumption that he is until he is proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt.
I don't believe that there can be justice ever for the kids. There is no way to bring them back and undo that day. Justice is for the living. Does it serve the community or the family to convict the wrong man? No. Does it serve them to find only him and no accomplices (if any exist)? No. Does it serve them if he is found innocent? Not really because then a murderer is still a free agent.

Ideally, this WOULD be about the kids and their loved ones left behind. Ideally, we would remember that at each step. but that isn't how a murder trial works. A murder trial is about the defendant and what happens next. That may sound cold, and I'm sorry to anyone that may offend, but that is the reality.

 

[photographer4]

He was just being a drama queen IMO - but in any event, it's a sideshow and has nothing to do with RA's trial, in my view.

Agreed.

 

[photographer4]

Well I think, she may think, let's get to the heart of the matter since the SC did not remove her. They wanted procedure and that's seems to be what is going to happen. There are things that need to be adjudicated in her courtroom, finally.
Isn't that what the SC ruled? So it's being done just like they said it should, like the old/new defense screamed about it should have been. The prosection doesn't seem to have a problem with it being done in open court. I wonder if B&R do? AJMO

We don't know quite what the SCOIN intended when they ruled that she should stay on the case because they have yet to tell us. It seems it would have made sense to wait for their written decisions before proceedings by any of the parties, but everyone is (rightfully) impatient. That said, I don't think that JG should be ruling on the contempt motion, and I think Rozzi had some good arguments as to why not in his continuance filing. As for open court, interesting question - I wonder how that will go?

 

[photographer4]

Has the defense submitted all it's discovery?

Dunno. They've been accused of having NOT done so by the Prosecution - but who had that responsibility between their DQ and now? Was that them or was that their colleagues who covered off in their absence?

 

[photographer4]

I don't know if there's precedent for that. It is still her case and these matters concern that case.

Well, she does seem to like to try to set precedent, doesn't she? I've heard nothing to suggest that the continuance was granted, so I imagine this is proceeding on the 12th?

 

[photographer4]

I doubt that. You?

Dunno. I don't know that I'd put it past her.

 

[girlhasnoname]

No. I can't point out anything that states legally an attorney cannot take time off.

Ethically and morally I would hope that RA's attorneys would choose to be there for their poor, mistreated and totally innocent client.


JMO

You lost me at ethically and morally Ravenmoon, it just does not compute with these 2 IMO.

They went from "We'll represent Rick ProBono, we have such a special emotional bond with Rick and KA and his family we'll give up everything to represent him."...To
"we need to be paid, you're late paying us, and that STM thing, well we have practices, lives, families and other paying clients who need our attention too" and we're going to file all these Motions to buy us time because we AREN'T READY.

I have no problem with them being paid, no assigned lawyer should not get paid, but they pushed that slick emotional story out to the public for all it was worth. It's their cheap deception that sickens me.

R&B are two fairly small time Defense attorneys from Indiana who got handed the career making case of a lifetime; fame, notoriety, everything that comes with it, TV Interviews and deals, book and movie deals. All they had to do was represent their client vigorously and competently. RA is owed that by law, and rightly so.

And they blew it by being deceitful and incompetent.

ALL MOO

 

[somequestions]

The only way this case makes sense is if the witness who saw Richard Allen on platform 1 of the Monon High Bridge is not sure about what she saw. It is concerning too, that this witness's car was not seen leaving by the Hoosier Harveststore surveillance camera until 2:15pm. It only takes 5-6 minutes to walk from the Mears parking lot trail entrance to the beginning of the Monon High Bridge.

I think the witness did see Richard Allen on platform 1 on the Monon High Bridge. I think she walked back to her car in the Mears parking lot. I think Richard Allen left a few minutes later from the Monon High Bridge platform 1 and was behind her. She got back to her car. Richard Allen passed by the Mears entrance going back up the trail back to his car. Then Abigail Williams and Liberty German got on the trail to go to the Monon High Bridge. Even if Kelsi dropped Abby and Libby off earlier, maybe they were walking on the other trail for a few minutes before deciding to go on the trail leading to the Monon High Bridge? I do not think the witness ever saw Abby and Libby on the trail that leads to the Monon High Bridge. But if she did and her witness testimony is correct, I can understand why, through this reasoning, people believe Richard Allen is guilty. Or the defense is going to try to argue that he was not there at all in the timeframe of 1:30 - 3:30pm, even with his car on surveillance camera arriving in the area at 1:27pm.

But then there is the "driving witness" who saw the muddy and bloody guy walking along 300 N at 3:57pm. Yet somehow this person, who is assumed to be the murderer, managed to evade the Hoosier Harveststore surveillance camera too? This person, it is theorized, knows where surveillance cameras are located, and got lucky leapfrogging Liberty German's father and the flannel shirt guy who would have been on the trails by this time too(along with how many others I do not know).

I really wonder how many people actually saw bridge guy or Abby and Libby on the trails that day.

 

[sunshineray]

Wasn't it Rozzi who stated in his motion to continue that the matter should be heard by a special judge? https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/delphi-continuance-request.pdfView attachment 481400

Yeah so that's his opinion but is that procedure?

 

[sunshineray]

I'd like to reiterate here that I don't know if RA is guilty or not. I wasn't there. I'm not advocating that he is innocent - only that there should be an assumption that he is until he is proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt.
I don't believe that there can be justice ever for the kids. There is no way to bring them back and undo that day. Justice is for the living. Does it serve the community or the family to convict the wrong man? No. Does it serve them to find only him and no accomplices (if any exist)? No. Does it serve them if he is found innocent? Not really because then a murderer is still a free agent.

Ideally, this WOULD be about the kids and their loved ones left behind. Ideally, we would remember that at each step. but that isn't how a murder trial works. A murder trial is about the defendant and what happens next. That may sound cold, and I'm sorry to anyone that may offend, but that is the reality.

Totally and respectfully disagree with just about everything you've said. Maybe it's more the tone of what you said. There certainly can be justice for Abby and Libby. On the flip side, does it serve the victims, families or community to set a guilty man free? So the argument goes both ways. The prosecutor himself has said he believes others may be involved. That wouldn't negate RA being involved, only a jury can determine that. So lets see how the trial goes and what the jury decides, guilt or innocence. It is about the girl's, they are why RA stands accused of double murder. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

Well, she does seem to like to try to set precedent, doesn't she? I've heard nothing to suggest that the continuance was granted, so I imagine this is proceeding on the 12th?

Seems to me she likes to see competent attorneys doing an important job so the pre-trial and trial aren't corrupted by unethical and negligent behaviors. JMO

 

[Ward Thisperer]

Here’s an interesting flashback article:

Prosecutor in Delphi murder case says case is 'very solid' as judge considers whether to release document with state’s evidence

A judge is still considering Nicholas McLeland's request for a gag order in the Delphi murders case, along with a request to keep court documents sealed.

www.wthr.com

Published: 7:42 PM EST November 23, 2022
Updated: 8:07 PM EST November 24, 2022

DELPHI, Ind. — The prosecutor in the murder case of two Delphi teenagers is trying to reassure the public that he has "a very solid case."
Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland issued a press release Wednesday morning, saying "we strongly believe the evidence shows Richard Allen was involved in the murder of Libby [German] and Abby [Williams]." The statement goes on to say “we believe we have very solid case against Mr. Allen and look forward to making our argument at trial.”

The prosecutor's statement is unusual, because just yesterday, he asked a judge to impose a gag order that would prohibit any attorneys, law enforcement officials, court staff, the county coroner and family members from disseminating information or releasing any statements about the case outside of court.

Another article: Carroll County Prosecutor says they have a ‘very solid case’ against Delphi homicide suspect

10/31/22: NM and LE hold 20 minute press conference regarding RA's arrest, field questions from media
11/14/22: B&R appointed.
11/22/22: **order of events is unclear**
- B&R assert RA's innocence in court hearing, request unsealing of PCA, B&R speak to reporters for about 11 minutes outside courtroom afterwards
- NM moves for gag order, B&R tell JG they don't want to try case in the media.
11/23/22: NM issues press release asserting RA's guilt.
12/1/22: B&R issue press release asserting RA's innocence.
12/1/22 & 12/2/22: JG issues gag order, states this was due to B&R's press release.

 

[sunshineray]

Here’s an interesting flashback article:

Prosecutor in Delphi murder case says case is 'very solid' as judge considers whether to release document with state’s evidence

A judge is still considering Nicholas McLeland's request for a gag order in the Delphi murders case, along with a request to keep court documents sealed.

www.wthr.com

Published: 7:42 PM EST November 23, 2022
Updated: 8:07 PM EST November 24, 2022

DELPHI, Ind. — The prosecutor in the murder case of two Delphi teenagers is trying to reassure the public that he has "a very solid case."
Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland issued a press release Wednesday morning, saying "we strongly believe the evidence shows Richard Allen was involved in the murder of Libby [German] and Abby [Williams]." The statement goes on to say “we believe we have very solid case against Mr. Allen and look forward to making our argument at trial.”

The prosecutor's statement is unusual, because just yesterday, he asked a judge to impose a gag order that would prohibit any attorneys, law enforcement officials, court staff, the county coroner and family members from disseminating information or releasing any statements about the case outside of court.

Another article: Carroll County Prosecutor says they have a ‘very solid case’ against Delphi homicide suspect

10/31/22: NM and LE hold 20 minute press conference regarding RA's arrest, field questions from media
11/14/22: B&R appointed.
11/22/22: **order of events is unclear**
- B&R assert RA's innocence in court hearing, request unsealing of PCA, B&R speak to reporters for about 11 minutes outside courtroom afterwards
- NM moves for gag order, B&R tell JG they don't want to try case in the media.
11/23/22: NM issues press release asserting RA's guilt.
12/1/22: B&R issue press release asserting RA's innocence.
12/1/22 & 12/2/22: JG issues gag order, states this was due to B&R's press release.

Not as interesting as what came after, IMO.
D publishes why RA is innocent in violation. Then D emails a youtuber, who just happen to be in their contacts list, ALL the protected discovery, in violation.. Then a strategist and friend of the D, who was never asked to sign a don't share with anyone, because he didn't actually work for the D, was made privy to all sorts of discovery by RA's attorney AB, in violation. Then that same person, takes it upon themselves to steal crime scene photos and share them, in violation. Then the D files a motion with an attached memorandum, for public view, that discloses witnesses names, crime scene evidence and talks about defense strategy, in violation. Then one of the D admits in a filing that he lied to the judge, another violation.
I think that's it...but we don't know everything he D has done that LE has uncovered...yet. JMO

 

[Ward Thisperer]

D publishes why RA is innocent in violation

SBM- in violation of what?

Then D emails a youtuber, who just happen to be in their contacts list, ALL the protected discovery, in violation.

No, he didn’t email him any discovery.

Then a strategist and friend of the D, who was never asked to sign a don't share with anyone, because he didn't actually work for the D, was made privy to all sorts of discovery by RA's attorney AB, in violation.

No evidence confirming AB gave him access to any discovery apart from what he stole.

Then that same person, takes it upon themselves to steal crime scene photos and share them, in violation.

Well considering he wasn’t subject to the protective order he didnt violate any court order but perhaps committed conversion.

Then the D files a motion with an attached memorandum, for public view, that discloses witnesses names, crime scene evidence and talks about defense strategy, in violation.

In violation of what? Lawyers are encouraged to use facts to establish arguments. The Supreme Court of Indiana confirmed they followed the law by not withholding this filing from the public. Do you want them to break the court rules just because JG doesn’t like them?

Then one of the D admits in a filing that he lied to the judge, another violation

What is this one referring to?

 

[steeltowngirl]

I know some people like to see the case entries and there are some who probably do not. Going back takes up a lot of space. So I'm trying something new =in this case only= to see if this comprise is a good thing. Just click on the spoiler if you want to see the case history back to Jan. 22.

Spoiler: Case Summary 1/22/2024

01/22/2024	Order Issued The Court, having had defendant's Motion for Franks Hearing (filed September 18, 2023), the Memorandum in Support of the Accused's Motion for Franks Hearing (filed September 18, 2023), defendant's Supplemental Motion for Franks Hearing (filed October 2, 2023), Defendant's Additional Franks Notice (filed October 3, 2023), the State's Objection to Defendant's Motion to Suppress (filed June 13, 2023), and the State's Second Objection to Defendant's Motion to Suppress (filed September 25, 2023) under advisement, now denies the Defendant's Motion for a Franks Hearing. The Court finds the Affidavit submitted in support of the issuance of the search warrant contained information that a reasonable belief existed that evidence of the murders would be found in the defendant's home and vehicles. The Court does not find that the Affidavit submitted false statements or that the Affiant omitted statements with reckless disregard, nor does the Court find that the Affiant intended to mislead the Judge by failing to present information. As the Court has found the Affidavit for issuance of the search warrant was valid, the search itself was reasonable and legal under Indiana law and Fourth Amendment case law. Defendant's Motion to Suppress Fruits of Search of 1967 North Whiteman Drive, Delphi, IN (filed May 19, 2023) is also denied based upon all the pleadings, memorandums, and exhibits previously submitted in support of the request for a Franks hearing. Defendant's Motion in Limine Regarding Ballistics (filed June 13, 2023) is reviewed and denied without hearing. The Court finds the evidence contained in Defendant's Exhibits A and B attached to the Motion is relevant and admissible. The Court further finds the probative value of such evidence is not substantially outweighed by its prejudicial impact, and that the evidence will not confuse or mislead the jury. Defendant's Motion to Transfer (filed January 12, 2024) taken under advisement pending the State's response, if any, and a hearing to be set. State's Motion to Amend Information (filed January 18, 2024) will be set for a remote hearing. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 01/22/2024
01/23/2024	Automated Paper Notice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 1/22/2024 : James David Luttrull
01/23/2024	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 1/22/2024 : Andrew Joseph Baldwin;Bradley Anthony Rozzi;Nicholas Charles McLeland;Robert Cliff Scremin;William Santino Lebrato
01/24/2024	Motion to Withdraw Appearance Filed Motion to Withdraw Appearance Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 01/24/2024
01/29/2024	Motion to Compel Discovery Filed Motion to Compel Discovery.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 01/27/2024
01/29/2024	Motion Filed Verified Motion to Disqualify Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 01/28/2024
01/29/2024	Response to a Petition Filed State's Response to Defense's Mtn for Transfer.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 01/29/2024
01/29/2024	Motion Filed Allen Verified Info of Contempt. Conduct.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 01/29/2024
02/01/2024	Order Issued Court orders the State's Motion to Amend Information, filed January 18, 2024, and the State's Verified Information of Contemptuous Conduct, filed January 29, 2024, set for hearing on February 12, 2024, at 9:00 a.m. in the Allen Superior Court. Court will issue a Transport Order to have the defendant present. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 02/01/2024
02/01/2024	Transport Order Entered Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 02/01/2024
02/02/2024	Automated Paper Notice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 2/1/2024 : James David Luttrull Transport Order Entered ---- 2/1/2024 : James David Luttrull
02/02/2024	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 2/1/2024 : Andrew Joseph Baldwin;Bradley Anthony Rozzi;Nicholas Charles McLeland;Robert Cliff Scremin;William Santino Lebrato Transport Order Entered ---- 2/1/2024 : Andrew Joseph Baldwin;Bradley Anthony Rozzi;Nicholas Charles McLeland;Robert Cliff Scremin;William Santino Lebrato
02/02/2024	Order Issued Order granting Motin to Withdraw Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 01/29/2024
02/02/2024	Motion for Continuance Filed Motion for Continuance Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 02/02/2024
02/02/2024	Notice of Exclusion of Confidential Information Notice of Exclusion Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 02/02/2024
02/02/2024	Motion Filed Motion to Transfer - Redacted Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 02/02/2024
02/03/2024	Automated Paper Notice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 2/2/2024 : James David Luttrull
02/03/2024	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 2/2/2024 : Andrew Joseph Baldwin;Bradley Anthony Rozzi;Nicholas Charles McLeland;Robert Cliff Scremin;William Santino Lebrato
02/05/2024	Motion for Continuance Filed Motion for Continuance Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 02/05/2024
02/05/2024	Hearing Scheduling Activity Hearing scheduled for 02/12/2024 at 9:00 AM.
02/05/2024	Motion to Vacate Hearing Filed Motion to Vacate Hearing Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 02/05/2024
02/12/2024	Hearing Session: 02/12/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Comment: To be held in the Allen Superior Court 5
10/15/2024	Jury Trial Session: 10/15/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/16/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/17/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/18/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/21/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/22/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/23/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/24/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/25/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/28/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/29/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/30/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 10/31/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Session: 11/01/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ

This was a really great use of the tools on this site! Kudos!!!

 

[steeltowngirl]

Maybe they didn't know about his fancy black wheel covers until AFTER they went back to look at him in 2023? Maybe then they went back to the HH footage and realized oh crud! That's his car!!? But if that had happened, would we know about that yet?

Whose car?

 

[Caylee Advocate]

That was from the Franks Memo? I bet we won't get the entire story of BB and the alleged conflicts in her statement until trial. I agree, a 65 Comet is tough, it will be something that will need clarification during trial IMO.

I think there were literally thousands of tips on cars alone reported early on. I did pull up a Smart car and RA's vehicle and posted them backed in side by side on this MT probably right after the PCA was released. It was a surprise to see how much they looked alike. People who tipped in these cars were recalling after seeing them for what, 3-5 seconds as driving by?

If they have a video of HH showing a car similar to RA's during the murder timeframe in addition of all of the other evidence, it will not be good for RA despite the thousands of other tips called in.

JMO

Hopefully they know WHO in that area owns/owned a 1965 Comet at the time of these murders. IMO there shouldn't be many to track.