Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #175

[photographer4]

Yeah so that's his opinion but is that procedure?

I mean, he DID seem to cite something rather official in that document on that point - I highlighted the quote in question from the document, but I'm not sure what it was he cited...

 

[photographer4]

Totally and respectfully disagree with just about everything you've said. Maybe it's more the tone of what you said. There certainly can be justice for Abby and Libby. On the flip side, does it serve the victims, families or community to set a guilty man free? So the argument goes both ways. The prosecutor himself has said he believes others may be involved. That wouldn't negate RA being involved, only a jury can determine that. So lets see how the trial goes and what the jury decides, guilt or innocence. It is about the girl's, they are why RA stands accused of double murder. AJMO

Well, we agree at least that a jury should decide, and that we should hear all the evidence and arguments of both sides before we decide if he's guilty or not.

 

[photographer4]

Seems to me she likes to see competent attorneys doing an important job so the pre-trial and trial aren't corrupted by unethical and negligent behaviors. JMO

I can see how that may be the case as well - its very unfortunate that there was no hearing on the DQ of the lawyers. I imagine if there had been, then it would be over and done with. I get she was probably trying to spare them the ordeal and salvage their reputations. I'm interested in what the evidence says about what they did / how it was done and any possible end goals on their part if it was at all intentional (which some of it does possibly appear to have been!).

 

[photographer4]

Here’s an interesting flashback article:

Prosecutor in Delphi murder case says case is 'very solid' as judge considers whether to release document with state’s evidence

A judge is still considering Nicholas McLeland's request for a gag order in the Delphi murders case, along with a request to keep court documents sealed.

www.wthr.com

Published: 7:42 PM EST November 23, 2022
Updated: 8:07 PM EST November 24, 2022

DELPHI, Ind. — The prosecutor in the murder case of two Delphi teenagers is trying to reassure the public that he has "a very solid case."
Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland issued a press release Wednesday morning, saying "we strongly believe the evidence shows Richard Allen was involved in the murder of Libby [German] and Abby [Williams]." The statement goes on to say “we believe we have very solid case against Mr. Allen and look forward to making our argument at trial.”

The prosecutor's statement is unusual, because just yesterday, he asked a judge to impose a gag order that would prohibit any attorneys, law enforcement officials, court staff, the county coroner and family members from disseminating information or releasing any statements about the case outside of court.

Another article: Carroll County Prosecutor says they have a ‘very solid case’ against Delphi homicide suspect

10/31/22: NM and LE hold 20 minute press conference regarding RA's arrest, field questions from media
11/14/22: B&R appointed.
11/22/22: **order of events is unclear**
- B&R assert RA's innocence in court hearing, request unsealing of PCA, B&R speak to reporters for about 11 minutes outside courtroom afterwards
- NM moves for gag order, B&R tell JG they don't want to try case in the media.
11/23/22: NM issues press release asserting RA's guilt.
12/1/22: B&R issue press release asserting RA's innocence.
12/1/22 & 12/2/22: JG issues gag order, states this was due to B&R's press release.

No appearance of bias here at all... look away people... look away....

 

[photographer4]

Not as interesting as what came after, IMO.
D publishes why RA is innocent in violation. Then D emails a youtuber, who just happen to be in their contacts list, ALL the protected discovery, in violation.. Then a strategist and friend of the D, who was never asked to sign a don't share with anyone, because he didn't actually work for the D, was made privy to all sorts of discovery by RA's attorney AB, in violation. Then that same person, takes it upon themselves to steal crime scene photos and share them, in violation. Then the D files a motion with an attached memorandum, for public view, that discloses witnesses names, crime scene evidence and talks about defense strategy, in violation. Then one of the D admits in a filing that he lied to the judge, another violation.
I think that's it...but we don't know everything he D has done that LE has uncovered...yet. JMO

Nothing to see here either people.... look away, look away......
What a mess!!

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Hopefully they know WHO in that area owns/owned a 1965 Comet at the time of these murders. IMO there shouldn't be many to track.

 

[mrjitty]

No appearance of bias here at all... look away people... look away....

I've had a bee in my bonnet about this issue for some years now - where both prosecutors and defence use out of court statements that could taint the jury.

IMO NMcL's is actually OK here because it doesn't say more than the charging documents themselves. i think it's fine for him to simply say he has confidence in his case. It's fairly standard stuff around the world.

What I don't like about Rozzi's press release is he introduces Rick's thoughts and beliefs which are not actually public statements made by the defendant. e.g

Allen’s lawyers said their client “contacted the police and voluntarily discussed being on the trail that day,” according to the statement. “Like many people in Delphi, Rick wanted to help any way he could.”

Allen remembers “seeing three younger girls on the trail that day” but “his contact with the girls was brief and of little significance,” his attorneys said.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/02/us/delphi-teen-girls-killing-richard-allen-attorneys/index.html

So he's crossed over into sock puppeting statements from the defendant which may or may not align with prior statements (e.g in his police interview), and he's discussing the evidence.

This is a tricky area because of course you have strong speech rights in the US and the defence will always want to humanise their client. But I can see why the Judge got annoyed when they had a hearing on this topic then rozzi put that out.

If he'd stuck to these kind of statements below i think it would have been fine.

Richard Allen, who was arrested last month in connection with the killings, will make “a vigorous legal and factual challenge” to the prosecution claim that a .40 caliber unspent round found near the bodies of the two teens tied him to the crime, attorneys Brad Rozzi and Andrew Baldwin said in the statement.

my 02c

 

[mrjitty]

Dunno. They've been accused of having NOT done so by the Prosecution - but who had that responsibility between their DQ and now? Was that them or was that their colleagues who covered off in their absence?

The trial is currently no time soon. I'd imagine there will be a new schedule for all of this when they fix a trial date. I suspect the prosecution filed that discovery motion in case the defence did file their Speedy trial motion.

 

[photographer4]

The trial is currently no time soon. I'd imagine there will be a new schedule for all of this when they fix a trial date. I suspect the prosecution filed that discovery motion in case the defence did file their Speedy trial motion.

I imagine by the time they work out the current motions it will still be a long way off as scheduling can be difficult at all, and who knows what further motions or pre trial things are yet to come.

 

[sunshineray]

SBM- in violation of what?

No, he didn’t email him any discovery.

No evidence confirming AB gave him access to any discovery apart from what he stole.

Well considering he wasn’t subject to the protective order he didnt violate any court order but perhaps committed conversion.

In violation of what? Lawyers are encouraged to use facts to establish arguments. The Supreme Court of Indiana confirmed they followed the law by not withholding this filing from the public. Do you want them to break the court rules just because JG doesn’t like them?

What is this one referring to?

Being directed by the judge not to bring the case to the media. They violated their word to the judge that they wouldn't do so, that they had no desire to do so... an ethics violation, IMO, if a lawyer's promise to a judge is suppose to be their bond? Very soon after that the prosecutor asked for a gag order.

 

[sunshineray]

I mean, he DID seem to cite something rather official in that document on that point - I highlighted the quote in question from the document, but I'm not sure what it was he cited...

In my opinion, dubious. At this point I trust nothing Mr R or Mr. B put forward. I think they've consistantly been unethical in what they've said and done concerning the Delphi case. Once someone starts down the road they have, all believability goes out the window for me. That's just all my opinion. I wonder how their actions and words will impact a jury being seated. That is IF B&R wind up continuing as RA's attorneys.

 

[mrjitty]

Being directed by the judge not to bring the case to the media. They violated their word to the judge that they wouldn't do so, that they had no desire to do so... an ethics violation, IMO, if a lawyer's promise to a judge is suppose to be their bond? Very soon after that the prosecutor asked for a gag order.

There is a truism about why burning your stakeholders by being deceptive is risky - one day you might need them to believe you. I think we saw that here.

It's why I am not convinced that the Franks is a great strategy if you actually wanted the Judge to rule in your favour - but maybe that was never really the hope.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Being directed by the judge not to bring the case to the media. They violated their word to the judge that they wouldn't do so, that they had no desire to do so... an ethics violation, IMO, if a lawyer's promise to a judge is suppose to be their bond? Very soon after that the prosecutor asked for a gag order.

Your timeline is off. It didn't happen that way.
The prosecution asked for the gag order on 11/22/2022.
The defense was opposed to it.
Chances were very good, IMO, that JG would give McL what he asked for.
The defense issued their press release some time after the gag order request.
JG slammed the door shut shortly thereafter.
Here's a WTHR copy of the press release:

https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/press-release-for-richard-allen.pdf

 

[mrjitty]

The only way this case makes sense is if the witness who saw Richard Allen on platform 1 of the Monon High Bridge is not sure about what she saw. It is concerning too, that this witness's car was not seen leaving by the Hoosier Harveststore surveillance camera until 2:15pm. It only takes 5-6 minutes to walk from the Mears parking lot trail entrance to the beginning of the Monon High Bridge.

I think the witness did see Richard Allen on platform 1 on the Monon High Bridge. I think she walked back to her car in the Mears parking lot. I think Richard Allen left a few minutes later from the Monon High Bridge platform 1 and was behind her. She got back to her car. Richard Allen passed by the Mears entrance going back up the trail back to his car. Then Abigail Williams and Liberty German got on the trail to go to the Monon High Bridge. Even if Kelsi dropped Abby and Libby off earlier, maybe they were walking on the other trail for a few minutes before deciding to go on the trail leading to the Monon High Bridge? I do not think the witness ever saw Abby and Libby on the trail that leads to the Monon High Bridge. But if she did and her witness testimony is correct, I can understand why, through this reasoning, people believe Richard Allen is guilty. Or the defense is going to try to argue that he was not there at all in the timeframe of 1:30 - 3:30pm, even with his car on surveillance camera arriving in the area at 1:27pm.

But then there is the "driving witness" who saw the muddy and bloody guy walking along 300 N at 3:57pm. Yet somehow this person, who is assumed to be the murderer, managed to evade the Hoosier Harveststore surveillance camera too? This person, it is theorized, knows where surveillance cameras are located, and got lucky leapfrogging Liberty German's father and the flannel shirt guy who would have been on the trails by this time too(along with how many others I do not know).

I really wonder how many people actually saw bridge guy or Abby and Libby on the trails that day.

The thing I took from the Pistorius case, which is probably the grand daddy of witness timeline cases - is that its more the broad strokes of the evidence that matter, and the corroboration, because any 2 witnesses see the same thing from different angles and disagree.

Like if the 3 juveniles did see him at 1.30 (despite his claim to be leaving at that time), it is hard to imagine how he cannot be the guy woman walker saw on the bridge, and also the guy on the video.

Ditto if his car was parked backed in at some stage, and there is still a car there later - it is suggestive that was still his car because he can't have left yet, even if the witness misidentified it.

Simlarly, if he isn't muddy/bloody guy, how did he leave the trails with no one seeing him?

I feel like we just can't evaluate all this without his police interview especially.

 

[sunshineray]

Your timeline is off. It didn't happen that way.
The prosecution asked for the gag order on 11/22/2022.
The defense was opposed to it.
Chances were very good, IMO, that JG would give McL what he asked for.
The defense issued their press release some time after the gag order request.
JG slammed the door shut shortly thereafter.
Here's a WTHR copy of the press release:

https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/press-release-for-richard-allen.pdf

Well then even worse, a violation of the court's order. Thanks for the correction.

 

[girlhasnoname]

The trial is currently no time soon. I'd imagine there will be a new schedule for all of this when they fix a trial date. I suspect the prosecution filed that discovery motion in case the defence did file their Speedy trial motion.

No chance of the Defense filing their dusty STM anytime soon. They're not ready.

The State filed the Discovery Motion because the Defense has not supplied any substantial discovery back to the State.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

The thing I took from the Pistorius case, which is probably the grand daddy of witness timeline cases - is that its more the broad strokes of the evidence that matter, and the corroboration, because any 2 witnesses see the same thing from different angles and disagree.

Like if the 3 juveniles did see him at 1.30 (despite his claim to be leaving at that time), it is hard to imagine how he cannot be the guy woman walker saw on the bridge, and also the guy on the video.

Ditto if his car was parked backed in at some stage, and there is still a car there later - it is suggestive that was still his car because he can't have left yet, even if the witness misidentified it.

Simlarly, if he isn't muddy/bloody guy, how did he leave the trails with no one seeing him?

I feel like we just can't evaluate all this without his police interview especially.

Exactly.

As for the witness' testimony regarding a Comet, there is enormous discovery in this case. We have seen defense attorneys (in other cases) exploit LE work product to their clients' benefits. Highlight something that was in fact true of the investigation historically without mentioning how LE debunked it through subsequent investigation. For example, let's say a witness is interviewed on Monday and says she saw a bologna sandwich. LE investigates and goes in search of corroborating evidence, only to discover by Friday, that the witness did in fact see a bologna sandwich, it was just on a different day altogether. And all that investigatory work is included a massive discovery dump. Defense can bark about bologna all day because it's really true, it's really in the evidence while conveniently withholding the whole second part. Duplicitous at best but not outside some defense attorneys' wheelhouses.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

The trial is currently no time soon. I'd imagine there will be a new schedule for all of this when they fix a trial date. I suspect the prosecution filed that discovery motion in case the defence did file their Speedy trial motion.

I hope the State asks for a Court date sooner rather than later. Everyone thinks the State isn't ready, I'd wager they are and they need to force R&B's hand to get this to trial.

Oh, the State may need time to schedule interviews with the Defense witnesses and experts that R&B have failed to provide to the State yet. You know that pesky Discovery that R&B have cried about the State not providing to them, when they are the ones who've done very little in the way of reciprocating.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Your timeline is off. It didn't happen that way.
The prosecution asked for the gag order on 11/22/2022.
The defense was opposed to it.
Chances were very good, IMO, that JG would give McL what he asked for.
The defense issued their press release some time after the gag order request.
JG slammed the door shut shortly thereafter.
Here's a WTHR copy of the press release:

https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/press-release-for-richard-allen.pdf

Ah yes, the infamous "Press Release" issued a day after they claimed directly to the Judge there didn't need to be a gag order because they had no intention of trying the case in the Media. Which is exactly what they did the very next day. Again, another deceitful move like all of their others. Lying liars who lie.

P.S.- I love how it was scratched out on white copy paper, not official letter head from either of the attorneys, maybe they had their 'strategist friend' whip it up for them.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Well then even worse, a violation of the court's order. Thanks for the correction.

The gag order was not in effect when the press release was issued.
Again: There was no violation.
You're welcome.