Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #175

[photographer4]

Good points about Dulin and his interviews.
Sounds like he did quite a few if he had to hunt through them looking for RA's.


imo

This may be a good lesson for future investigations actually - if LE send someone out to the field to do interviews in locations like a parking lot etc, maybe they should require it be recorded via phone and maybe should require that it be submitted by end of day to LE running the investigation along with any written notes about the meeting. Maybe even some grand system of entering and cataloguing and backing up these things would be helpful in future investigations?

 

[Ward Thisperer]

My 5x daily routine:
> check the 2nd original action for the SCOIN written opinion
> scroll to the bottom of the docket
> see the words "document transmitted"
> see that it's still next to the date "1/18/2024"
> sadly exit page

 

[photographer4]

I wonder why BH and PW were people LE wanted to talk to so soon after the murders?

Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights

Robert Ives said in an interview that LE thought they'd solve this one fairly quickly given the evidence they had at the time, even without using current technology (paraphrased).... makes me wonder, was he thinking of BH and PW?

 

[sunshineray]

This may be a good lesson for future investigations actually - if LE send someone out to the field to do interviews in locations like a parking lot etc, maybe they should require it be recorded via phone and maybe should require that it be submitted by end of day to LE running the investigation along with any written notes about the meeting. Maybe even some grand system of entering and cataloguing and backing up these things would be helpful in future investigations?

I think they thought they had that with the FBI system...what was it called, Orion, Odyssey? I can't remember. The system that it was filled under his street's name, not under Allen.

 

[photographer4]

I think they thought they had that with the FBI system...what was it called, Orion, Odyssey? I can't remember. The system that it was filled under his street's name, not under Allen.

Seems the system needs some refinement I guess....
(Not a dig at you - just generally, the system seems a bit broken in some areas).

 

[Yemelyan]

Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights

Robert Ives said in an interview that LE thought they'd solve this one fairly quickly given the evidence they had at the time, even without using current technology (paraphrased).... makes me wonder, was he thinking of BH and PW?

I don't think so, because in that same interview that you cited he says several times that the evidence they had did not lead to any particular person and there was never anybody's name who came up in the investigation while he worked on it who he believed was the person responsible. He says it more than once but see this response from the above link: "As I told you before I’m not even close to thinking it’s more likely than not that any particular person that I’m aware of committed this crime. Not even close."

 

[Ward Thisperer]

This is what I was wondering about. RA's trial is not the place to put two other men on trial. So how is that going to be dealt with? RA's trial is the prosecution's time to put on evidence to prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. If the defense feels the prosecution is making points with the jury, then they have to address those. Throwing the blame on Odinists without producing them, wouldn't that be doomed to fail?
So how does the D get those men on the stand to testify without then putting them on trial within a trial?

My understanding is that they wouldn't need to call the actual people, they could just ask investigators questions relating to the Odinism angle. For example, we already know that in the depositions they were asking LE questions about Odin involvement and the defense POIs and asking them about the evidence they believe points to Odinist involvement (ie. CS printouts). They could also call Todd Click for example and have him testify about his belief about who is responsible for the crime. They probably wouldn't even want to get BH and PW on the stand imo, because if the jury finds them likeable or trustworthy that would hurt RA, best to just let the D paint their own picture of those people to create reasonable doubt, rather than act like they are trying to prosecute the other people.

One thing I'm not sure of is how much latitude they have to ask those types of questions or if JG can decide they aren't allowed to and that the line of questioning isn't relevant.

 

[Yemelyan]

Seems the system needs some refinement I guess....
(Not a dig at you - just generally, the system seems a bit broken in some areas).

The system can only be as good as the people that are putting information into it. The system's job is not to check the accuracy of information entered into the system or contained in the tip narratives, it is to scan all tips for commonalities so that if patterns are emerging investigators can become aware of all the tips that mention, for example, a black Ford Focus in the area.

 

[Wallendo]

This may be a good lesson for future investigations actually - if LE send someone out to the field to do interviews in locations like a parking lot etc, maybe they should require it be recorded via phone and maybe should require that it be submitted by end of day to LE running the investigation along with any written notes about the meeting. Maybe even some grand system of entering and cataloguing and backing up these things would be helpful in future investigations?

I understand your intent, but, at least for me, if LE came to talk to me and put a camera in my face, I would be much less likely to cooperate with an interview: especially in today's social media everything goes online environment.

 

[photographer4]

I don't think so, because in that same interview that you cited he says several times that the evidence they had did not lead to any particular person and there was never anybody's name who came up in the investigation while he worked on it who he believed was the person responsible. He says it more than once but see this response from the above link: "As I told you before I’m not even close to thinking it’s more likely than not that any particular person that I’m aware of committed this crime. Not even close."

From the same interview I cited above though - this did give me pause, since the interviews are missing from BH & PW...

 

[O.Incandenza]

Just wondering - does anyone think the new motion to dismiss by Defense has merit? Does anyone think this could actually end in a dismissal then? It seems kinda big that they don't have the original interviews from the start of the investigation...?

I think there's zero chance this leads to a dismissal or even to significant discovery sanctions of any kind. Perhaps if they had evidence that the prosecution itself was intentionally destroying evidence. But this seems to be something that happened in 2017, and it appears to have been unintentional. And the evidence in question isn't directly related to Richard Allen.

 

[Justice101]

This may be a good lesson for future investigations actually - if LE send someone out to the field to do interviews in locations like a parking lot etc, maybe they should require it be recorded via phone and maybe should require that it be submitted by end of day to LE running the investigation along with any written notes about the meeting. Maybe even some grand system of entering and cataloguing and backing up these things would be helpful in future investigations?

There were SO MANY tips coming in, IN PERSON, INTERNET, BY PHONE that LE had so much going on, not surprise inexperienced officers were used and made mistakes.

 

[photographer4]

I understand your intent, but, at least for me, if LE came to talk to me and put a camera in my face, I would be much less likely to cooperate with an interview: especially in today's social media everything goes online environment.

Yeah, you're probably correct in that even an innocent person should never meet with LE without a lawyer present...

 

[O.Incandenza]

Update. See how easy this was?

02/07/2024

Order Issued The Court, having defendant's Verified Motion to Disqualify (filed January 28, 2024), Defendant's Affidavit (filed January 28, 2024), and Certification of Richard Allen's Attorneys (filed January 28, 2024) under advisement and having considered the pleadings, now denies the Verified Motion to Disqualify without hearing as the Indiana Supreme Court unanimously denied Defendant's previous request on January 18, 2024. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 02/06/2024

Wow. I don't see how she can use this rationale without having read the SCOIN opinion. It's quite possible (likely even IMO) that the recusal relief was denied by SCOIN on purely procedural grounds. There hadn't even been a ruling on recusal yet at the trial court level, so it couldn't meet the structural error standard required for granting relief in an original action.

And if that was the basis for their ruling, this order makes no sense. SCOIN saying "We can't grant this relief due to the posture of the case" is a totally different thing from saying "this relief shouldn't be granted by the trial court." I guess we'll see when the opinion is finally released.

 

[mrjitty]

Wow. I don't see how she can use this rationale without having read the SCOIN opinion. It's quite possible (likely even IMO) that the recusal relief was denied by SCOIN on purely procedural grounds. There hadn't even been a ruling on recusal yet at the trial court level, so it couldn't meet the structural error standard required for granting relief in an original action.

And if that was the basis for their ruling, this order makes no sense. SCOIN saying "We can't grant this relief due to the posture of the case" is a totally different thing from saying "this relief shouldn't be granted by the trial court." I guess we'll see when the opinion is finally released.

Yeah this doesn’t sit well with me. She shouldn’t have ruled before the reasons dropped. Do you think she might have got the word back channel?

It’s actually bizarre to me SCOIN left it this way but maybe they didn’t imagine the defence would apply for recusal before the opinion came out?

 

[cuecard]

This case has been an utter mess from start to now in all honesty. Horrendous what Abby and Libby's families are going through.

 

[O.Incandenza]

Yeah this doesn’t sit well with me. She shouldn’t have ruled before the reasons dropped. Do you think she might have got the word back channel?

It’s actually bizarre to me SCOIN left it this way but maybe they didn’t imagine the defence would apply for recusal before the opinion came out?

I doubt it. She shouldn't have any more access to the opinion than Allen's lawyers. And if she somehow got that access anyway, she certainly shouldn't be basing her order on an opinion she's not supposed to have seen.

It's strange to me that she didn't just rule on it on the basis that she wasn't biased. Doing it this way seems to give them a much better appeal if SCOIN's opinion ends up denying recusal on procedural grounds.

 

[Emma Peel]

Facts regarding the most critical earliest moments/days of investigation as to evidence:

- interview evidence from the most critical first week of the investigation is missing, and prepared but unsubmitted phone warrants on the subject(s) of those interviews went missing.

- the custody chain for the bullet casing found at crime scene is missing.

- security video of area used for timeline is missing.

- Dulin's records re: RA's report to LE early days is missing.

What else?

SMH.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Facts regarding the most critical earliest moments/days of investigation as to evidence:

- interview evidence from the most critical first week of the investigation is missing, and prepared but unsubmitted phone warrants on the subject(s) of those interviews went missing.

- the custody chain for the bullet casing found at crime scene is missing.

- security video of area used for timeline is missing.

- Dulin's records re: RA's report to LE early days is missing.

What else?

SMH.

The SW has 3 parts. The chain of custody is missing from all three.

Here's another thing and I don't know how important it is.
In a case like this, I'd sure want to see all appropriate boxes checked. Especially the gun and ammo.

There is a box for "Witness to Recovery" on each one of the parts listing recovery items.
Part 1. Gun and ammo has no signature in that box.
Part 2. All personal items is signed by Trooper Vido
Part 3. Automobile has no signature in that box.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I have consciously refrained from making any comments today after reading the latest Hail Mary from the Defense. They allege all of this and it will be up to people way more competent than this true crime keyboard jockey to validate the merit of those claims or not.

It's unbelievable to me, I think the D has over exaggerated once again like the Franks Memo, but I want to wait and see how this all shakes out. I don't want to make statements in anger that I will regret later. I've put too much into this case to blow my following it to the bitter end and seeing Justice for Abby and Libby now.

JMO