Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #175

[photographer4]

Judge Gull has done well for herself and has even been exhalted by one of the ex attorneys. Personal dislike for her is not a good reason to question her integrity.

Judge Frances C. Gull | Trellis

She is not perfect, but even the ex defense say that she is fair and will give RA a fair trial.

I dislike things she has done, but have immense respect for her career.

I do NOT like B & R, but they are the defendants choice of representation.

I do lean towards RA being the killer, but if there are other actors, they need to be charged.

Innocent until proven guilty is for a court of law. It doesn't apply to the general public or the families.


JMO

I don't care what her reputation has been in other matters - I'm only familiar with this particular matter, and at present, her case management on it leaves rather much to be desired.

Regarding ex defense statement that she is fair and will give RA a fair trial - what lawyer in his right mind is going to make statements against a judge that could be seen as slanderous or libelous?? Especially if the judge in question is one he must work with on a regular basis?

Excluding their motions that state they believe there is an appearance of bias on JG's part, I've not even seen R&B make any slanderous or libelous statements to the media about her, have you? And in regards to slander and libel, those terms only apply if the statements made are not true and it would appear there is some evidence to support their claims of bias.

 

[Justice101]

Yeh, I have opinions at this point probably because the police are right 95% of the time.

However, if I stepped into a court room, even if I had an opinion that the person might be guilty, I would HOPE that I would have enough character and control to go back and presume their innocence and watch to see if they were proven guilty within reasonable doubt. I think I could still be impartial.

In this case, if it ever goes to trial... In my opinion, RA will be judged guilty or not due to several pieces of evidence in this order of importance:

#1) Multiple confessions while in jail of the murders by RA.
#2) RA admitting to LE that he was on the trail at the time of the murders in the same clothing of the accused.
#3) Video and audio of BG walking up to the girls and one of them says "gun". So it happened right then, not 10 minutes later. And the person that pulled the gun on them was BG.
#4) Eyewitness testimony that BG was on the trail and seen afterwards near the road muddy and bloody.
#5) Bullet ejection testimony (that is, if they even use this at all).
#6) Other evidence found at his house in the searches.

The state's case will be to prove that RA is BG.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I don't care what her reputation has been in other matters - I'm only familiar with this particular matter, and at present, her case management on it leaves rather much to be desired.

Regarding ex defense statement that she is fair and will give RA a fair trial - what lawyer in his right mind is going to make statements against a judge that could be seen as slanderous or libelous?? Especially if the judge in question is one he must work with on a regular basis?

Excluding their motions that state they believe there is an appearance of bias on JG's part, I've not even seen R&B make any slanderous or libelous statements to the media about her, have you? And in regards to slander and libel, those terms only apply if the statements made are not true and it would appear there is some evidence to support their claims of bias.

I said nothing regarding slander or liable.

My point was that one doesn't need to like someone to have respect for them.

 

[photographer4]

BBM to address point since interested in the law:


Innocent until proven guilty is not in the US Constitution.

It is the Presumption of Innocence that is recognized as a due process right under the Fifth Amendment.

It is referring to a fair trial in a court of law.

The Prosecutor has the burden of proof to show that a person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.


It has absolutely nothing to do with what people, who are not jurors, think about a crime or what posters online discuss.



A presumption of innocence means that any defendant in a criminal trial is assumed to be innocent until they have been proven guilty. As such, a prosecutor is required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person committed the crime if that person is to be convicted. To do so, proof must be shown for every single element of a crime. That being said, a presumption of innocence does not guarantee that a person will remain free until their trial has concluded. In some circumstances, a person can be held in custody.
[..]

presumption of innocence


imo

Scary isn't it though? How many civilians are determined beyond a reasonable doubt with what little evidence is known to the public that RA is guilty! The notion may not apply to the public, but it sure is interesting to watch it play out in the eye of the public!! It does make me wonder how any accused ever get a fair trial at all in a case such as this that has drawn international attention - it must be very hard to find and select 12 impartial jurors who are willing to hear all the arguments and weigh all the evidence before declaring him guilty!

I wonder how much money and which professionals are used in jury selection? Psychologists? What sort of training do they have and what do they look for? Just an interesting question...

 

[photographer4]

The sanctions are like a punishment for the lawyers themselves. So the question of what they did wrong exactly and what sanctions are imposed isn't directly relevant to RA's criminal trial. For instance, you could likely just put it on hold until the trial is finished. As I understand it, the punishment could be fine of some kind.

It could be but Rozzi seems to think that the prosecution is seeking a criminal punishment - that is not a small thing. I wonder, if prosecution is seeking criminal punishment as a remedy, then do they have to hear and decide this matter before proceeding to the criminal case against RA? Seems a lawyer incarcerated wouldn't be effective, and actually, would that lead to him being disbarred? Just wondering out loud, not a lawyer, so any help from any legal pros would be appreciated here!

 

[FrostedGlass]

I do not understand a lot of the timeline evidence released in this case. One of Richard Allen's former defense attorneys, William Lebrato, recently said that Richard Allen's story has not changed. Yet now the defense says Richard Allen was only there at the Monon High Bridge trail area from 12 - 1:30pm? This does not make any sense, especially if LE have Richard Allen's black Ford Focus with darked out wheels passing the Hoosier Harvest Store camera at 1:27pm heading towards the old CPS building where he supposedly parked. The tip narrative written up by the conservation officer Dulin has Richard Allen at the Monon High Bridge between 1:30 - 3:30pm. What is correct about Richard Allen's arrival and departure times from the Monon High Bridge trail area? This timeline is an important detail.

Also, if the witness saw a man out on platform 1 of the Monon High Bridge and you have a defendant, Richard Allen, stating in an interview that he was out on platform 1 and there are no other men in the area, then no matter what the description of the man by the witness, the probability that the man she saw on platform 1 was probably Richard Allen. Even if you take Abigail Williams and Liberty German out of the equation, it still means Richard Allen was there from around 1:30pm onward.

I used to think that maybe Richard Allen might be innocent, mainly because of my interpretation of bridge guy's hat from Liberty German's phone video, but this timeline stuff that shows cars going and coming to the area does not look good for Richard Allen.

About the tires: Surely an all black SUV would have been caught on the HH cam. It's been said that road is not heavily traveled; so surely LE would have been on the lookout for such a vehicle.

For all the days RA worked at CVS, it was parked right there, 2 blocks away from the Carroll County Sheriff. How no one noticed it leaves me astounded.

 

[photographer4]

I said nothing regarding slander or liable.

My point was that one doesn't need to like someone to have respect for them.

I brought it up as a point towards why Lebrato would not dare to say anything against her in the media that he wasn't willing to defend in court.

At present, I do not have a lot of respect for JG. Respect is earned, not given freely. There are arguments she hasn't paid the lawyers in a timely fashion, their access to their client is limited by time and other issues, there are concerns about the Odin staffers with their Odin symbols, concerns about his treatment in prison that she just doesn't seem overly worried about as the delay to hear / decide these matters seems lengthy. She's sealed documents in error then promised to unseal them by X date, then failed to get it done by X date.... I could go on... but you get the idea...

To that end, I don't have a lot of respect for R&B either, but I do think some of their legal moves have been very interesting!

Not even a fan of the prosecution here. He's inexperienced, he hasn't appeared to send over all relevant disclosure as of end of Oct for a trial set to start in Jan... has brought a contempt motion (who suggested this to him or was this his own idea?) which only further holds things up...

The entire case is a disaster. If the prosecution wins, I suspect its going directly to appeals....

 

[photographer4]

About the tires: Surely an all black SUV would have been caught on the HH cam. It's been said that road is not heavily traveled; so surely LE would have been on the lookout for such a vehicle.

For all the days RA worked at CVS, it was parked right there, 2 blocks away from the Carroll County Sheriff. How no one noticed it leaves me astounded.
View attachment 481372

Maybe they didn't know about his fancy black wheel covers until AFTER they went back to look at him in 2023? Maybe then they went back to the HH footage and realized oh crud! That's his car!!? But if that had happened, would we know about that yet?

 

[Ward Thisperer]

Everything..
They knew that they would have to be available when necessary.
It's literally their job.

Can you point to where in any sort of legal code, procedure, or standards where it indicates a lawyer is not to take any personal days during a pretrial and that they must clear all appointments at the demand of the judge for non-urgent matters?
Or are there separate rules for B&R?

we accept that they are back on the case.

Seems like those that support B&R can't reciprocate by allowing the judge to do her job.

How are we impeding the judge from doing her job?
Also, is it the job of a judge to disregard the established court procedures?

I am wondering why ( I could be misunderstanding) Baldwin now does not want to be there?

What better way to show their contempt for their contempt charges? Just guessing.

Having an attorney present doesn't mean that B&R aren't going to be there. Hennessy will be there to represent them. This is a due process right they are guaranteed under the Indiana procedures for Indirect Criminal Contempt. (see below: "representation by counsel")

It would be best if the contempt stuff was split off to a different judge. It has nothing to do with this trial anymore.

This is the proper process as well according to Indiana's rules (a new, separate cause of action with a special judge).

https://www.in.gov/courts/iocs/files/pubs-contempt-procedure-benchcard.pdf

I believe that 20 days is standard to prepare a response. Maybe I am wrong?

If I am correct, they had enough time.


JMO

SBM - I don't know what is standard, but there is only 14 days between the filing by NM on 1/29 and the hearing set by JG on 2/12.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I brought it up as a point towards why Lebrato would not dare to say anything against her in the media that he wasn't willing to defend in court.

At present, I do not have a lot of respect for JG. Respect is earned, not given freely. There are arguments she hasn't paid the lawyers in a timely fashion, their access to their client is limited by time and other issues, there are concerns about the Odin staffers with their Odin symbols, concerns about his treatment in prison that she just doesn't seem overly worried about as the delay to hear / decide these matters seems lengthy. She's sealed documents in error then promised to unseal them by X date, then failed to get it done by X date.... I could go on... but you get the idea...

To that end, I don't have a lot of respect for R&B either, but I do think some of their legal moves have been very interesting!

Not even a fan of the prosecution here. He's inexperienced, he hasn't appeared to send over all relevant disclosure as of end of Oct for a trial set to start in Jan... has brought a contempt motion (who suggested this to him or was this his own idea?) which only further holds things up...

The entire case is a disaster. If the prosecution wins, I suspect its going directly to appeals....

I have no doubt that appeals will occur, they always do.

Please remember that the defense themselves have stated in the past that the prosecutor may have actually turned over all discovery but because of the sheer amount, they could have missed it.


JMO

 

[photographer4]

I have no doubt that appeals will occur, they always do.

Please remember that the defense themselves have stated in the past that the prosecutor may have actually turned over all discovery but because of the sheer amount, they could have missed it.


JMO

Must be a ton of stuff! If RA is guilty, I do hope he rots - don't get me wrong! I just want him to have as a fair a trial as he can have, and make sure that his rights are maintained. I want B&R to face a consequence if appropriate for their FM, and of course for any leaks that were their fault!!

 

[FrostedGlass]

Maybe they didn't know about his fancy black wheel covers until AFTER they went back to look at him in 2023? Maybe then they went back to the HH footage and realized oh crud! That's his car!!? But if that had happened, would we know about that yet?

For me, all black vehicles stand out. It would be hard for me to look at a picture of one and not notice. If it's been on camera all this time and LE didn't notice it, then I don't know what to say.
Apparently none of the witnesses noticed all black rims, either.

IMO, that's just another one of many strange things in this case.

 

[photographer4]

For me, all black vehicles stand out. It would be hard for me to look at a picture of one and not notice. If it's been on camera all this time and LE didn't notice it, then I don't know what to say.
Apparently none of the witnesses noticed all black rims, either.

IMO, that's just another one of many strange things in this case.

I'd like to know what if any evidence was found in his vehicle (whichever was seized by LE) that might incriminate him? And him specifically at that. Had he ever loaned anyone the car?

 

[sunshineray]

I'm sorry - can you pls help me understand who Joe Btfsplk is? Or how he applies here? Confused. Ty in advance.

A character from the cartoon strip Li'l Abner. He has the worst luck and literally walks around with a dark cloud over his head all the time.

 

[Emma Peel]

Ah, the docket now reveals this is defense attny David Hennessey (again) appearing for BOTH Baldwin and Rozzi.

(Previously - October - Hennessey appeared to rep Baldwin against Gull's removal of D counsel.)

View attachment 481338
View attachment 481339

Quoting above appearance filings...

"Limitation is to respond to contempt allegations."

"Undersigned counsel is cognizant of the Court's concerns regarding public disclosures and pledges compliance."

(Does Hennessey anticipate submitting a few things the Court might wish to redact and/or seal? - JMHO)

 

[sunshineray]

Can you point to where in any sort of legal code, procedure, or standards where it indicates a lawyer is not to take any personal days during a pretrial and that they must clear all appointments at the demand of the judge for non-urgent matters?
Or are there separate rules for B&R?

How are we impeding the judge from doing her job?
Also, is it the job of a judge to disregard the established court procedures?


Having an attorney present doesn't mean that B&R aren't going to be there. Hennessy will be there to represent them. This is a due process right they are guaranteed under the Indiana procedures for Indirect Criminal Contempt. (see below: "representation by counsel")

This is the proper process as well according to Indiana's rules (a new, separate cause of action with a special judge).
View attachment 481371

https://www.in.gov/courts/iocs/files/pubs-contempt-procedure-benchcard.pdf

SBM - I don't know what is standard, but there is only 14 days between the filing by NM on 1/29 and the hearing set by JG on 2/12.

Not showing up to a contempt hearing might signal contempt for the proceeding itself to some, IMO...or not, depending on how you view it.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I said nothing regarding slander or liable.

My point was that one doesn't need to like someone to have respect for them.

You have to have respect to order to show respect Ravenmoon.

The Defense got caught in a big ole' mess of lying and snookery, so of course they're going to be screaming for Judge Gull's DQ. She has solid information from ISP investigations on the leaks now that purportedly back up her opinion of their professional misconduct. That is huge. The Defense leaked confidential, protected discovery to third parties. A man killed himself in the fallout of all the snookery is how serious this is.

They aren't ready for trial now, they weren't ready for a trial like they said they were in the Jan 18th SCOIN hearing IMO, they have never been ready for trial.

For 2 lawyers that were screaming STM and said they were ready to go, they seemed to have not only backed off the gas pedal, but slammed on the brakes. I guess they're still walking around with their signed, but not dated STM in their back pocket.

R&B are truly not capable of providing the best possible Defense for RA IMO and for his sake, even though I believe he is guilty, he does deserves fair and competent representation.

It will be interesting to see how the proposed 2/12 hearing shakes out. I've said I have a feeling something big is going to happen in this case. Too many coincidental things happening at one time.

ALL MOO

 

[Ward Thisperer]

Not showing up to a contempt hearing might signal contempt for the proceeding itself to some, IMO...or not, depending on how you view it.

The point is that they have never indicated they don't plan to attend the hearing.

 

[sunshineray]

It would be best if the contempt stuff was split off to a different judge. It has nothing to do with this trial anymore.

I don't think B&R would want that to happen...just guessing

 

[girlhasnoname]

For me, all black vehicles stand out. It would be hard for me to look at a picture of one and not notice. If it's been on camera all this time and LE didn't notice it, then I don't know what to say.
Apparently none of the witnesses noticed all black rims, either.

IMO, that's just another one of many strange things in this case.

Funny, I never pay attention to black cars they seem to everywhere so none really stand out to me.

Now a red car, or yellow and I am all over it.

moo