Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #175

[FrostedGlass]

Each move gets more depressing. I don't see how this ever can end well.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I wonder why BH and PW were people LE wanted to talk to so soon after the murders?

I can understand LE talking to BH due to the connection between his son and Abby. Why PW though?

 

[Ward Thisperer]

I can understand LE talking to BH due to the connection between his son and Abby. Why PW though?

My guess is that it is because BH talked about PW in his interview and identified him as a practitioner of Asatru, according to the FBI post-interview report quoted in the FM (p81)

 

[FrostedGlass]

I can understand LE talking to BH due to the connection between his son and Abby. Why PW though?

This whole thing could have gotten way more complicated than we imagined.

Westfall and Messer were part of a group at a rally in Indy in March 2017, sporting their American Guard and Vinlander t-shirts. The Anti-Defamation League wrote a good article about how these groups started and how they are intertwined. The Soldiers of Odin are mentioned, too.

I won't link the ADL article but you can find it by searching Behind the American Guard or just Westfall and Messer. It's worth the read.

 

[photographer4]

My guess is that it is because BH talked about PW in his interview and identified him as a practitioner of Asatru, according to the FBI post-interview report quoted in the FM (p81)
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Ok, so if they attended different schools, how did Logan end up meeting Abby in the first place? How was Logan communicating with her (if she did not have her own phone)? Email? Chat program online (eg: snap or skype online)?

 

[Yemelyan]

Ok, so if they attended different schools, how did Logan end up meeting Abby in the first place? How was Logan communicating with her (if she did not have her own phone)? Email? Chat program online (eg: snap or skype online)?

Her mom said in interviews (such as Scene of the Crime) that Abby had a secret Facebook page that she had made behind her mom's back and blocked her mom from seeing because she was not allowed to have one. She had a Kindle from which she could access Facebook.

 

[TL4S]

This whole thing could have gotten way more complicated that we imagined.

Westfall and Messer were part of a group at a rally in Indy in March 2017, sporting their American Guard and Vinlander t-shirts. The Anti Defamation League wrote a good article about how these groups started and how they are intertwined. The Soldiers of Odin are mentioned, too.

I won't link the ADL article but you can find it by searching Behind the American Guard or just Westfall and Messer. It's worth the read.

What bothers me about the whole Odin thing is that it just won't go away. When the FM first came out, it was such a shock to read, and it wasn't long before a lot of people were calling it fanfiction. But it wasn't like AB and BR pulled it out of their backside. Since the FM, they have gathered a few more eggs in their Odinist basket. One girl was dating the son of an Odinist. At least two Odinists were spoken to by LE within the first few days of the investigation. It just so happened to be those interviews which were lost. Someone in LE prepared a SW including wording about religious sects and religious elements to the crime scene. A professor possibly claimed the CS had signs of Norse beliefs, on some level. Several LE officers investigated a group of men associated with Odinism, one of whom still admits to suspecting them. The prison RA was sent to ended up having guards wearing Odinist patches, then tattoos. It just won't go away. Why is that?

So it's easy to dismiss the D as storytellers, and disregard the whole Odinism angle because, well, frankly, it sounds crazy. But the D didn't lead LE to BH and PW's doorstep. They didn't tape over the interviews. They didn't write the SW. They didn't put the patches and ink on the guards. I don't like the Odinist stuff, but at this point, I'm starting to understand why the D is utilizing this theory. And what's upsetting is that the FM was out long before they even fully knew about the lost interviews and tattoo. Personally, I can't ignore that. JMO.

Sidenote: I don't really have any feelings one way or another about the Odinist group. But the handling of it by the State looks bad, and the D's strategy looks less and less ridiculous, because of the way it was handled. JMO.

 

[Emma Peel]

Tuesday is Delphi Filings Day, apparently.

Here's another filing from D moving for Summary judgement (Denial) of the P's Contempt motion.
Seems the arguments for Denial are technical in nature / procedural, etc.. The many ways the P's Contempt motion is a faulty charge (such that Gull can't hear or decide) are explained.

I don't recognize the authoring attorney's name (Michael Ausbrook) as "appearing" on the docket yet... his "appearance" notice likely accompanies? This attorney is from the Habeaus Project at Mauer School of Law, IN. - (Appellate wizards hang out there, JMO.)

 

[steeltowngirl]

Ok, so if they attended different schools, how did Logan end up meeting Abby in the first place? How was Logan communicating with her (if she did not have her own phone)? Email? Chat program online (eg: snap or skype online)?

If I’m correctly reading the section of the FM that @Ward Thisperer clipped, sounds like LH and PW’s son may have met Abby at Canal Park while playing basketball.

 

[TL4S]

Tuesday is Delphi Filings Day, apparently.

Here's another filing from D moving for Summary judgement (Denial) of the P's Contempt motion.
Seems the arguments for Denial are technical in nature / procedural, etc.. The many ways the P's Contempt motion is a faulty charge (such that Gull can't hear or decide) are explained.

I don't recognize the authoring attorney's name (Michael Ausbrook) as "appearing" on the docket yet... his "appearance" notice likely accompanies? This attorney is from the Habeaus Project at Mauer School of Law, IN. - (Appellate wizards hang out there, JMO.)
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It's like we have all had a full year of law school in three months time!

 

[steeltowngirl]

What bothers me about the whole Odin thing is that it just won't go away. When the FM first came out, it was such a shock to read, and it wasn't long before a lot of people were calling it fanfiction. But it wasn't like AB and BR pulled it out of their backside. Since the FM, they have gathered a few more eggs in their Odinist basket. One girl was dating the son of an Odinist. At least two Odinists were spoken to by LE within the first few days of the investigation. It just so happened to be those interviews which were lost. Someone in LE prepared a SW including wording about religious sects and religious elements to the crime scene. A professor possibly claimed the CS had signs of Norse beliefs, on some level. Several LE officers investigated a group of men associated with Odinism, one of whom still admits to suspecting them. The prison RA was sent to ended up having guards wearing Odinist patches, then tattoos. It just won't go away. Why is that?

So it's easy to dismiss the D as storytellers, and disregard the whole Odinism angle because, well, frankly, it sounds crazy. But the D didn't lead LE to BH and PW's doorstep. They didn't tape over the interviews. They didn't write the SW. They didn't put the patches and ink on the guards. I don't like the Odinist stuff, but at this point, I'm starting to understand why the D is utilizing this theory. And what's upsetting is that the FM was out long before they even fully knew about the lost interviews and tattoo. Personally, I can't ignore that. JMO.

Sidenote: I don't really have any feelings one way or another about the Odinist group. But the handling of it by the State looks bad, and the D's strategy looks less and less ridiculous, because of the way it was handled. JMO.

I don’t like how defense released the Odin connection in the FM, but as you say, it is difficult to ignore it. I don’t believe LE ignored it, but they didn’t have evidence to connect them to the murders and proceed with charges.

Doesn't mean they still can't if the investigation leads to admissible evidence. Also doesn’t rule out RA having involvement.

jmo

 

[Emma Peel]

Wondering what's the attorney count on this case (incl SCOIN) now?

And ... who's paying these extra attorneys?

 

[TL4S]

Tuesday is Delphi Filings Day, apparently.

Here's another filing from D moving for Summary judgement (Denial) of the P's Contempt motion.
Seems the arguments for Denial are technical in nature / procedural, etc.. The many ways the P's Contempt motion is a faulty charge (such that Gull can't hear or decide) are explained.

I don't recognize the authoring attorney's name (Michael Ausbrook) as "appearing" on the docket yet... his "appearance" notice likely accompanies? This attorney is from the Habeaus Project at Mauer School of Law, IN. - (Appellate wizards hang out there, JMO.)
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Uhh... this guy who wrote the filing was on the MS podcast, talking about Delphi, back in December.

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen Goes to the Indiana Supreme Court: A Conversation with Indiana University Maurer School of Law Federal Habeas Project Director Michael Ausbrook

We recently interviewed attorney Michael Ausbrook about the Indiana Supreme Court cases involving Richard Alle. Ausbrook is a professor at the Indiana University Maurer School of Law, and is the director of the Habeas Project there. He has years of experience working habeas cases, and also...

art19.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

What bothers me about the whole Odin thing is that it just won't go away. When the FM first came out, it was such a shock to read, and it wasn't long before a lot of people were calling it fanfiction. But it wasn't like AB and BR pulled it out of their backside. Since the FM, they have gathered a few more eggs in their Odinist basket. One girl was dating the son of an Odinist. At least two Odinists were spoken to by LE within the first few days of the investigation. It just so happened to be those interviews which were lost. Someone in LE prepared a SW including wording about religious sects and religious elements to the crime scene. A professor possibly claimed the CS had signs of Norse beliefs, on some level. Several LE officers investigated a group of men associated with Odinism, one of whom still admits to suspecting them. The prison RA was sent to ended up having guards wearing Odinist patches, then tattoos. It just won't go away. Why is that?

So it's easy to dismiss the D as storytellers, and disregard the whole Odinism angle because, well, frankly, it sounds crazy. But the D didn't lead LE to BH and PW's doorstep. They didn't tape over the interviews. They didn't write the SW. They didn't put the patches and ink on the guards. I don't like the Odinist stuff, but at this point, I'm starting to understand why the D is utilizing this theory. And what's upsetting is that the FM was out long before they even fully knew about the lost interviews and tattoo. Personally, I can't ignore that. JMO.

Sidenote: I don't really have any feelings one way or another about the Odinist group. But the handling of it by the State looks bad, and the D's strategy looks less and less ridiculous, because of the way it was handled. JMO.

I keep thinking if JG would have just heard them to begin with, this whole thing might have been explained away. OTOH, this just gets deeper and deeper and maybe she wanted to avoid that.

 

[Emma Peel]

Uhh... this guy who wrote the filing was on the MS podcast, talking about Delphi, back in December.

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen Goes to the Indiana Supreme Court: A Conversation with Indiana University Maurer School of Law Federal Habeas Project Director Michael Ausbrook

We recently interviewed attorney Michael Ausbrook about the Indiana Supreme Court cases involving Richard Alle. Ausbrook is a professor at the Indiana University Maurer School of Law, and is the director of the Habeas Project there. He has years of experience working habeas cases, and also...

art19.com

Nice Catch!
I've seen Ausbrook since complain a great deal wrt process in Gull's Court. (He can't stand it.) MOO

 

[Emma Peel]

Quote from Ausbrook's Motion of Summary Denial:

"As a matter of law almost older than dirt ... there are two kinds of contempt: direct and indirect."

See? I toldja it was very technical.

Enjoy your reading.

 

[TheVisual]

What I want to know more about is how BB mistaked this car for a light-colored '65 Comet like her dad used to drive. I wonder if LE were able to determine if that sighting was in the same spot, but on a different day. The Smart car or purple PT Cruiser I can kind of let pass, but BB's description is so vastly different.

Seems like the owners of a 1965 Comet would not be hard to find. Surely can't be many of them within a say 2 mile radius. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

My understanding is that they wouldn't need to call the actual people, they could just ask investigators questions relating to the Odinism angle. For example, we already know that in the depositions they were asking LE questions about Odin involvement and the defense POIs and asking them about the evidence they believe points to Odinist involvement (ie. CS printouts). They could also call Todd Click for example and have him testify about his belief about who is responsible for the crime. They probably wouldn't even want to get BH and PW on the stand imo, because if the jury finds them likeable or trustworthy that would hurt RA, best to just let the D paint their own picture of those people to create reasonable doubt, rather than act like they are trying to prosecute the other people.

One thing I'm not sure of is how much latitude they have to ask those types of questions or if JG can decide they aren't allowed to and that the line of questioning isn't relevant.

When does all this turn to slander? Defense has mention these men in the FM now this. How can they drag their names into it so easily, name them as murderers and not face being sued?

 

[Emma Peel]

This Summary Denial filing is just cringe-worthy for the State - a DA's job #1 is to get criminal charges and the law correct.

And it's equally embarrassing for Gull, who set a hearing for something she has no jurisdiction over.

Per Ausbrook, there are a total of 4 "matters of law older than dirt" cited that keep the Court from hearing this erroneous motion.

Ausbrook brings a law school spanking for McLeland, and a invite to a cognitive check-up for Gull.

JMHO.

memory test for Gull here:

At least one other time, of course, was when, on October 12, 2023, in an email, the Court ordered Messrs. Baldwin and Rozzi to stop their work on Mr. Allen’s behalf for at least a week. State interference with counsel in violation of the Sixth Amendment is structural error for which prejudice is presumed.E .g., Weaver v. Massachusetts, 582 U.S. 286, 308 (2017).See also Strickland,466 U.S. at 686 (“Government violates the right to effective assistance when it interferes in certain ways with the ability of counsel to make independent decisions about how to conduct the defense.”);Geders v. United States, 425 U.S. 80, 91 (1976) (Sixth Amendment right to counsel violated without showing of prejudice for trial judge’s interference with defendant’s right to consult with counsel). Notwithstanding so-called Younger abstention because it may well not apply—see generally, Younger v. Harris,401 U.S. 37 (1971)—further state interference with his lawyers could well compel Mr. Allen to seek federal habeas relief under 28U.S.C. 2241(c)(3) in the form of an injunction. Were Mr. Allen to prevail in that undertaking, a conditional writ of habeas corpus, though using more formal legal language, would look something like: “Release Mr. Allen or leave his lawyers alone.” But win or lose, federal court is not a railroad siding Chief Justice Rush likely had in mind when she said at the hearing on the second original action involving this Court in this case: “My concern is getting this case back on track.”Hearing, January 18, 2024, at c. 14:25, State ex rel. Allen v. Carroll Cir. Court, Indiana Supreme Court No. 23S-OR-311

 

[Emma Peel]

Just Noting that Hennessey's appearance notice hit docket yesterday, but it appears no Hennessey filings on the docket ... yet.