Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #180

[snooptroop88]

Discussion of crowdsourcing with Delphi/Murder Sheet podcast transcript: Podcast transcripts, sponsors, and audience data - Podscribe

 

[katydid23]

No one has ever said the State has ALL the money they need. That is just not true. They also have constraints. They cannot have every item tested that they'd like tested. They cannot hire many 'outside' experts. They must use employees of the state for the most part.

The defense wanted 45k for a single expert's testimony. I highly doubt there were any P experts getting anywhere near that.

The Carroll County commission had several meetings in order to find ways to fund this trial. It is an enormous expense to them. And that includes the cost of the Prosecution. It is also a finite number just like it is for the defense.

Just saw an article posted upthread that supports my notion that the prosecution does NOT have an endless supply of cash either:

County Council not pleased with Prosecutor’s secretary position change - Carroll County Comet

The Carroll County Council met in regular session March 16 with a full agenda. It got even fuller at what was expected to be the end of the meeting. Recorder Penny Titus approached the Council after all other business had concluded. She informed council members that the person who was supposed...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

[The prosecutor had to go before the City Council to beg for an extra 5000 dollars for an extra secretary and the 2 others, to help with the new workload. He was denied in the end after a contentious debate.]


"Prosecutor Nick McLeland told the governing body he has hired the secretary in the office, who was to receive an extra $5,000 per year because of the job description, to be the trial secretary. He said both he and she understand the position is a temporary one. He then informed the Council he has replaced the new trial secretary with another secretarial worker in his office and both will receive the enhanced wages.

Titus said the Council has always maintained that they pay a position and not a person. She said again, they should adhere to their own rule and not pay two people more money because of the trial.

Ayres said, because of the false pretense for which the positions were being paid more because of McLeland’s assertion that the one he was going to hire was already trained and could do the work needed immediately upon beginning, he was in favor of reducing the pay to its previous amount. Stauffer and Tracy Martin agreed with him.

Josh Plue explained at length the council should not be the reason the prosecutor’s office suffers a mistrial because they would not pay enough money to a secretary.

McLeland said there is a tremendous amount of paperwork that must be done for discovery and other essential trial matters. Martin said he now has two secretaries to do that work and he can hire another part-time clerical worker.

McLeland said he has three trials in three weeks after spring break and he is pushed for time. He said he has not hired another prosecutor for the office, although that position was approved earlier by the Council.

Martin made a motion to rescind the $5,000 pay for each of the secretaries and Ayres provided the second. When the vote was taken, Stauffer, Plue and Tim Radcliff voted to keep the level of funding for the positions. Ayres and Martin voted to rescind the funds. Ethan Brown and Paul Rider did not attend the meeting. The motion failed and the two secretaries will each begin making the additional money, as of Feb. 3, according to Auditor Beth Myers."

 

[Willow Knight]

Found this...

Murder Sheet sources said KAK confessed to evidence being burned in at his grandparent's burn pit very soon after the murders. MS quotes parts of the LE interrogation and also Barbara Macdonald's interview talked about KAK mentioning his dad and himself going to his grandparent's house the day of the murders.

I don't know if I'm allowed to post/link KAK's 194 page interrogation because it's been sealed by the court?

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Thank you so much. Not able to view the episode from your link but was able to find it by the date it aired. Oct 2022. I'm trying to get the exact dates of the Wabash river search and the search of the two burn pits for my notes.

Again, thank you.

 

[mrjitty]

The purpose of a gag order is to shield a jury from possible prejudice, not to hinder an attorney from effectively representing their client (prosecution client being the citizens of the state, defense client being the accused). The court, in my opinion, means don''t talk to the press. I feel MW falls into the category of "professional staff and other personnel.

I'll doxx myself a little. I am a medical malpractice defense attorney (not an ambulance chaser; I ruin those folks' days). I speak to physicians of all types during a typical case. Some are experts, some are just persons I know or have defended in the past. They don't all ask me for pay, they trust I won't share their opinions on the record, and I trust they won't divulge specific medical information outside of their advisement. It happens every day, all across the country, and no one is the wiser. If or when things go sideways, the court will discipline us, and we know not to deal with that specific professional ever again. It works itself out in the wash. I've never had a professional problem of that type.

Thanks for sharing August. I am not at all surprised this is the practice and is one of those "... but for the grace of god" scenarios where anyone could be bitten.

Where my spidey sense is going off is evidentially, because AB has never told us this is what happened.

AFAIK, it was Rozzi who first indicated in a document that AB sometimes brainstormed with MW. But Rozzi is not the witness with direct knowledge. Similarly at the contempt hearing, DH advocated for the common practice you indicate above, but again the missing link is that AB never testified that he was doing this. Indeed when you look back at the genesis of all this, AB never disclosed it in the teleconferences with the Judge, or in the Chambers meeting. So all we actually have in terms of direct testimony about what happened is a bare bones affidavit from MW, which gives no detail at all, and of course the witness was not available.

So if you are the Judge, having sat face to face with AB in chambers and not been told any of this, I think she'd be fully justified in not accepting any of this as fact. I certainly don't accept it if he won't tell us!

But like I say, I suspect the reason why AB can't tell us what happened is his PI jeopardy.

 

[mrjitty]

Just saw an article posted upthread that supports my notion that the prosecution does NOT have an endless supply of cash either:

County Council not pleased with Prosecutor’s secretary position change - Carroll County Comet

The Carroll County Council met in regular session March 16 with a full agenda. It got even fuller at what was expected to be the end of the meeting. Recorder Penny Titus approached the Council after all other business had concluded. She informed council members that the person who was supposed...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

[The prosecutor had to go before the City Council to beg for an extra 5000 dollars for an extra secretary and the 2 others, to help with the new workload. He was denied in the end after a contentious debate.]


"Prosecutor Nick McLeland told the governing body he has hired the secretary in the office, who was to receive an extra $5,000 per year because of the job description, to be the trial secretary. He said both he and she understand the position is a temporary one. He then informed the Council he has replaced the new trial secretary with another secretarial worker in his office and both will receive the enhanced wages.

Titus said the Council has always maintained that they pay a position and not a person. She said again, they should adhere to their own rule and not pay two people more money because of the trial.

Ayres said, because of the false pretense for which the positions were being paid more because of McLeland’s assertion that the one he was going to hire was already trained and could do the work needed immediately upon beginning, he was in favor of reducing the pay to its previous amount. Stauffer and Tracy Martin agreed with him.

Josh Plue explained at length the council should not be the reason the prosecutor’s office suffers a mistrial because they would not pay enough money to a secretary.

McLeland said there is a tremendous amount of paperwork that must be done for discovery and other essential trial matters. Martin said he now has two secretaries to do that work and he can hire another part-time clerical worker.

McLeland said he has three trials in three weeks after spring break and he is pushed for time. He said he has not hired another prosecutor for the office, although that position was approved earlier by the Council.

Martin made a motion to rescind the $5,000 pay for each of the secretaries and Ayres provided the second. When the vote was taken, Stauffer, Plue and Tim Radcliff voted to keep the level of funding for the positions. Ayres and Martin voted to rescind the funds. Ethan Brown and Paul Rider did not attend the meeting. The motion failed and the two secretaries will each begin making the additional money, as of Feb. 3, according to Auditor Beth Myers."

A lot of the complaints seem to go to how the County/Indiana does this, rather than being the Judge's fault.

To me it would make more sense is the defence was given some kind of estimated budget for experts and the case in general, and funds were paid in advance to meet the cashflow requirements.

Instead it seems to work on an invoice system where the judge has to approve invoices, and the defence has to front the experts.

Also the Judge seems to have to balance the interests of justice vs the financial interests of state in determining which expenses should be approved which is not easy I guess.

So these decisions must be made every day, and I guess the defence is never pleased when it's requested expert expenditures are not approved.

 

[snooptroop88]

Thank you so much. Not able to view the episode from your link but was able to find it by the date it aired. Oct 2022. I'm trying to get the exact dates of the Wabash river search and the search of the two burn pits for my notes.

Again, thank you.

Looking, I just saw this somewhere. Source: "The search began Aug. 19, the same day a court allowed state police to take custody of Kline under a sealed order." Other source: "Kegan Kline was temporarily and voluntarily transferred into the custody of Indiana State Police on Friday August 19, 2022. On August 23, we drove up to Peru, Indiana and witnessed state police searching the Wabash River. We understand that this search was related to the Klines, although we have no official confirmation." Says they were searching five weeks. Saw something listing the end date of 9/28, don't know how reliable it is. Seeing this about KK burn pit: "About the same time the original hearing was scheduled we saw some pretty intense searches going on, a search of the Wabash River and the search of the fire pit at the home of Kegan Kline’s grandparents,” said Kevin Greenlee, an attorney, and host of the podcast THE MURDER SHEET which has delved into the Delphi murders. “Perhaps those searches were not as successful as they might like.” On the grandmother's burn pit, they're just saying it was around the same time as the river search. I see Redditors saying it was early Oct, but the river search would have been concluded by then. One MSM source seems to suggest, too, it might have been Oct for the burn pit at his grandmother's.

Search of Wabash River in Peru may be connected to Kegan Kline

PERU, Ind. (WISH) — Indiana State Police on Tuesday were searching the Wabash River in Peru, and it may be connected to anthony_shots suspect Kegan Kline. The Murder Sheet podcast, a News 8 newsgathering partner, shared photos showing divers in the Wabash River near the Nickel Plate bridges for...

www.wishtv.com

ISP search of Wabash River concludes, police not saying if anything was found

PERU, Ind. (WISH) — The five-week search of the Wabash River in Miami County is over. The big question still looms, is it connected to the murders of Abby and Libby in Delphi? Indiana State Police confirm to I-Team 8’s Richard Essex that police have concluded their search of the Wabash River in...

www.wishtv.com

The Delphi Murders: August 2022 Updates - Murder Sheet | iHeart

<p>Kegan Kline was temporarily and voluntarily transferred into the custody of Indiana State Police on Friday August 19, 2022. On August 23, we drove up to Peru, Indiana and witnessed state police searching the Wabash River. We understand that this search was related to the Klines, although we...

www.iheart.com

Delphi murders: Potential break in 2017 mystery emerges after podcast hosts receive anonymous tip

The hosts of "The Murder Sheet" podcast have uncovered a potential break in the 2017 Delphi murders of 14-year-old Libby German and 13-year-old Abby Williams.

www.foxnews.com

Case goes ahead against man linked to Delphi murders investigation

Sometimes it’s just as important in covering a court hearing to listen to what isn’t said as much as what is.

fox59.com

 

[sunshineray]

Do you have any link showing that the money is RA's? I don't believe that's correct.

I posted this earlier in the thread. MS had two very knowledgeable lawyers on their episode "Crowdfunding" who spoke to this.

"In this episode, we take a look at the issue of crowdfunding legal defense in general by speaking with Julienne Pasichow and Hilary Gerzhoy, two attorneys who covered this topic in an informative article for Law 360"

The Delphi Murders: Crowdfunding

Recently, attorney David Hennessy — apparently at the behest of attorneys Brad Rozzi and Andrew Baldwin — launched a crowdfunding effort to raise funds to assist in the defense of Richard Allen, the man charged with the killing of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. In this episode, we take a...

art19.com

 

[sunshineray]

This. In fact, the leak is what was used to try and remove the D from the case.

It wasn't the only thing by far.

 

[mrjitty]

I posted this earlier in the thread. MS had two very knowledgeable lawyers on their episode "Crowdfunding" who spoke to this.

"In this episode, we take a look at the issue of crowdfunding legal defense in general by speaking with Julienne Pasichow and Hilary Gerzhoy, two attorneys who covered this topic in an informative article for Law 360"

The Delphi Murders: Crowdfunding

Recently, attorney David Hennessy — apparently at the behest of attorneys Brad Rozzi and Andrew Baldwin — launched a crowdfunding effort to raise funds to assist in the defense of Richard Allen, the man charged with the killing of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. In this episode, we take a...

art19.com

What is a bit weird here is they mostly talked about where the defendants lawyers do the crowd funding for their clients defence. And the monies will be held in the trust account in a separate ledger for the benefit of the client

In this case, DH's clients are apparently the defence attorneys and not RA? Like who is the actual client?

I guess how the moneys are held and disbursed with depend on the specific documentation setting this up? The experts in the excellent interview talked quite a bit about the sort of detail that should be present in the funding documents so people who are giving know the answers to all these questions.

 

[mrjitty]

Days to trial: 34

Really running out of road to sort the pre-trial stuff

 

[sunshineray]

What is a bit weird here is they mostly talked about where the defendants lawyers do the crowd funding for their clients defence. And the monies will be held in the trust account in a separate ledger for the benefit of the client

In this case, DH's clients are apparently the defence attorneys and not RA? Like who is the actual client?

I guess how the moneys are held and disbursed with depend on the specific documentation setting this up? The experts in the excellent interview talked quite a bit about the sort of detail that should be present in the funding documents so people who are giving know the answers to all these questions.

And they say that exact pitfall is the most dangerous to the lawyers setting a crowdfunding up. That it can lead to actions taken against the lawyer(s)...even in the worse case, disbarment.

 

[zh0r4]

It wasn't the only thing by far.

What do you mean? Gross negligence in relation to the leaked photos was the reason?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Isn't that motion specific to depleted funds for one clinical psychologist to evaluate Allen and review health records
and video relevant to Allen’s confinement condition?

Yes, that's the one. The reason given for the denial of funds is in the second paragraph. Throughout this document, they list the reasons JG gave for the denials and none of them are "out of funds."
MOO
Here's my problem with the denials: one way or another the funds are available for retaining the experts but are then denied money to complete the job. Most experts won't work on promises; so that slams the brakes on any testimony. JG effectively cuts the D off at the knees with her denials of further funding.
***
(excerpt) PG 6
Defense counsel retained a clinical psychologist to evaluate Allen and review health records
and video relevant to Allen’s confinement conditions. This Court previously
authorized funds for the defense to retain the expert. However, those funds are now
depleted, and additional services are still needed.
This Court authorized payment for the two-hour visit defense counsel had
scheduled with the expert but denied the request for additional funding, finding
that the “unsupported request is denied as an unreasonable expenditure of county funds.”

Motion for Parity in Resources, To Reconsider the Denial of Anticipated Defense Costs, or to Exclude Evidence

drive.google.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

I posted this earlier in the thread. MS had two very knowledgeable lawyers on their episode "Crowdfunding" who spoke to this.

"In this episode, we take a look at the issue of crowdfunding legal defense in general by speaking with Julienne Pasichow and Hilary Gerzhoy, two attorneys who covered this topic in an informative article for Law 360"

The Delphi Murders: Crowdfunding

Recently, attorney David Hennessy — apparently at the behest of attorneys Brad Rozzi and Andrew Baldwin — launched a crowdfunding effort to raise funds to assist in the defense of Richard Allen, the man charged with the killing of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. In this episode, we take a...

art19.com

Any more, I have a hard time believing anything non-biased will come from their podcast. Law 360 is behind a paywall so I can't read the article for myself.

All I know is what I read on the site. If Hennessy misuses these funds in any way whatsoever, it will surely come back to bite him. I can't link to the site but but any sleuther can go look for themselves.
Here is the fine print from it:
We have identified the experts needed and the costs of fees, travel, and lodging are greater than originally anticipated. Please be advised that no funds collected will be offset against fees related to David Hennessy's law firm, Richard Allen's defense team, or to Richard Allen.

 

[sunshineray]

What do you mean? Gross negligence in relation to the leaked photos was the reason?

That was just one link in the chain unethical actions by the D, IMO

 

[mrjitty]

Any more, I have a hard time believing anything non-biased will come from their podcast. Law 360 is behind a paywall so I can't read the article for myself.

All I know is what I read on the site. If Hennessy misuses these funds in any way whatsoever, it will surely come back to bite him. I can't link to the site but but any sleuther can go look for themselves.
Here is the fine print from it:
We have identified the experts needed and the costs of fees, travel, and lodging are greater than originally anticipated. Please be advised that no funds collected will be offset against fees related to David Hennessy's law firm, Richard Allen's defense team, or to Richard Allen.

What's interesting in the interview is they outline a whole lot of disclosures that should be made if following best practice. DH's page doesn't have these.

It's a fascinating area!

 

[sunshineray]

Any more, I have a hard time believing anything non-biased will come from their podcast. Law 360 is behind a paywall so I can't read the article for myself.

All I know is what I read on the site. If Hennessy misuses these funds in any way whatsoever, it will surely come back to bite him. I can't link to the site but but any sleuther can go look for themselves.
Here is the fine print from it:
We have identified the experts needed and the costs of fees, travel, and lodging are greater than originally anticipated. Please be advised that no funds collected will be offset against fees related to David Hennessy's law firm, Richard Allen's defense team, or to Richard Allen.

Listen to the two lawyers comments is all I can suggest to you. They have the credentials to speak on the subject. The language used on the crowdfunding is addressed.

I'm more concerned about DH co-mingling his representation with RA's case and RA's lawyer's case.

 

[girlhasnoname]

A lot of the complaints seem to go to how the County/Indiana does this, rather than being the Judge's fault.

To me it would make more sense is the defence was given some kind of estimated budget for experts and the case in general, and funds were paid in advance to meet the cashflow requirements.

Instead it seems to work on an invoice system where the judge has to approve invoices, and the defence has to front the experts.

Also the Judge seems to have to balance the interests of justice vs the financial interests of state in determining which expenses should be approved which is not easy I guess.

So these decisions must be made every day, and I guess the defence is never pleased when it's requested expert expenditures are not approved.

Yes, there is a procedure in place for these payments and we know the D doesn't like following procedures very well. They are more of the ask for forgiveness rather than permission type of lawyers on this case. IMO

You can't just go out and hire and pay out of pocket for an 'expert' or service and then submit an expense report for them and be paid immediately. Whether or not they like or agree with the process, it's not how it's done. The Judge has to approve the 'expert' and the amount of money they are spending. That is how the process works.

They are in a rush now, but that is of their own making because they are the ones who pushed the Motion for Speedy Trial button before they were ready.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

What's interesting in the interview is they outline a whole lot of disclosures that should be made if following best practice. DH's page doesn't have these.

It's a fascinating area!

I've been trying to wade through the transcript; they tripped me up right off the bat with the statement below. I don't want an opinion of everything except this unique situation.

H disclosed where the funds will go and where they will not go. Exactly who gets what will likely be fluid, depending on what money they get from the judge, if any. The deadline is May 10 and he will have a much better idea of where they're at.

Yes. And so essentially these attorneys will be speaking on the general topic, not a lot of specific questions about Delphi because that's a bit of a unique situation, but we felt it was important to start with those building blocks.

Link to the transcript:

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app.podscribe.ai

 

[mrjitty]

I've been trying to wade through the transcript; they tripped me up right off the bat with the statement below. I don't want an opinion of everything except this unique situation.

H disclosed where the funds will go and where they will not go. Exactly who gets what will likely be fluid, depending on what money they get from the judge, if any. The deadline is May 10 and he will have a much better idea of where they're at.



Link to the transcript:

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app.podscribe.ai

One of the more interesting T&Cs i hadn't thought of was this one due to confidentiality. One of the main CYA risks seems to be that some annoying person on the internet donates, then gets very mad later because reasons and makes your life hell with complaints.

But If, you take dcs for example, it says that any information that you learn from a client in the course of representation that the client has asked that you not repeat to anybody or that could be viewed as detrimental, is confidential and cannot be released. And what counts as detrimental is incredibly broad. Even just the fact of litigation could be considered to be detrimental like that you have been sued or that you wish to sue somebody else. And so one of the most important disclaimers that you need to have when you have a crowdfunded page is to say nothing that we, we, by giving money to this campaign, you acknowledge that we are not gonna tell you anything about this case.