Abuse and JonBenet

[Solace]

angelwngs,

I guess barring the exceptional either someone other than John used his shirt to wipe down JonBenet, or the fiber transfer has occurred during a sexual assault?

This latter explanation suggests John and JonBenet were alive in a common timeframe.

Now an important feature is that in either scenario John's shirt would not magic itself from his bedroom down to the basement.

So regardless of which scenario you select its very likely JonBenet was wiped down upstairs and possibly inside John's bedroom? Otherwise you have someone deciding to go and fetch an expenisve shirt to wipe down JonBenet.

So its possible to speculate that prior to her death JonBenet was in the same upstairs room as John, his bedroom?

Alternatively down in the basement, John simply used his shirt to wipe down JonBenet, since it was convenient, per occam this is a starting point, but still raises the question why?

So rather than speculating further e.g. JonBenet fell off John, hitting her head, during a sexual assault in his bedroom?

If you accept that the shirt fibers did not arrive on JonBenet accidentally then their presence suggests that John was awake when he said he was asleep, and assuming further that he wiped JonBenet down to remove forensic evidence, it may have been him that wiped the flashlight clean?

added:
So rather than toilet rage, its just as logical to consider sexual rage, and since both parents are linked to the crime scene, and that it can be demonstrated that the wine-cellar is a staged crime scene then the probability of a familial conspiracy is reinforced. That is John and Patsy were joint partners in the death and staging of JonBenet's homicide?




.

Hi UK,

Rashomon just posted on A&E for me quotes from the 2000 interview with John Ramsey - where Levin asserts that "pilings" from John's blue robe were found in JB's underwear".

John replies "".

The robe was found in the floor in his bedroom I b elieve. So the robe was used to wipe her down.

I have said I always believed Thomas' theory that it was corporal punishment that gave way to the theory of sexual abuse (corporal punishment by Patsy). But I am not so sure anymore. It is looking more and more like sexual abuse.

 

[BBB167893]

Quotes do not do it justice, Solace!

He practically wet his pants!

 

[Solace]

Quotes do not do it justice, Solace!

He practically wet his pants!

SuperDave,

You have to tell me everything you know. Please, right now. Thanks Solace

 

[BBB167893]

There's really not much to tell. The interviewer drops that one on him, he jumps in his chair ramrod straight and blurts out "bull****." He sputters a little bit about how disgusting that is, and so forth, until Woody cuts in, most likely saving him from complete meltdown.

 

[Solace]

There's really not much to tell. The interviewer drops that one on him, he jumps in his chair ramrod straight and blurts out "bull****." He sputters a little bit about how disgusting that is, and so forth, until Woody cuts in, most likely saving him from complete meltdown.

SuperDave,

Do you believe there was sexual abuse going on in that house between John and JB?

 

[UKGuy]

Hi UK,

Rashomon just posted on A&E for me quotes from the 2000 interview with John Ramsey - where Levin asserts that "pilings" from John's blue robe were found in JB's underwear".

John replies "".

The robe was found in the floor in his bedroom I b elieve. So the robe was used to wipe her down.

I have said I always believed Thomas' theory that it was corporal punishment that gave way to the theory of sexual abuse (corporal punishment by Patsy). But I am not so sure anymore. It is looking more and more like sexual abuse.

Solace,

From memory I think that predates the analysis of the fibers, also was the robe not found in his office/den?

It was the dark blue color of the fibers they were speculating about.

There are two theories that just do not fit the facts e.g. corporal punishment or accidental death.

Death from corporal punishment is like an accidental death suitable explanations where the rationale is more explicable to the proposers world view.

If JonBenet had died as the result of an accident there would have been no need for the extensive staging.

And if it was corporal punishment why are there not more signs of this either on JonBenet's genitals or the rest of her body?


Since the wine-cellar is a staged homicide then an accident which is not a murder, cannot have been what was intended to be hidden?

If you mask an accident with a homicide you risk a death sentence, why compound the trouble you are in?

Somebody manually strangled JonBenet and that cannot be characterised as either an accident or any form of corporal punishment.

imo it was done to silence JonBenet, and what was being hidden was her sexual abuse, why else would a six-year old girl be so brutally killed?


.

 

[Solace]

Solace,

From memory I think that predates the analysis of the fibers, also was the robe not found in his office/den?

It was the dark blue color of the fibers they were speculating about.

There are two theories that just do not fit the facts e.g. corporal punishment or accidental death.

Death from corporal punishment is like an accidental death suitable explanations where the rationale is more explicable to the proposers world view.

If JonBenet had died as the result of an accident there would have been no need for the extensive staging.

And if it was corporal punishment why are there not more signs of this either on JonBenet's genitals or the rest of her body?


Since the wine-cellar is a staged homicide then an accident which is not a murder, cannot have been what was intended to be hidden?

If you mask an accident with a homicide you risk a death sentence, why compound the trouble you are in?

Somebody manually strangled JonBenet and that cannot be characterised as either an accident or any form of corporal punishment.

imo it was done to silence JonBenet, and what was being hidden was her sexual abuse, why else would a six-year old girl be so brutally killed?


.

UK,

Steve Thomas says that the trauma to JB's vagina was, he believed, a form of corporal punishment for bedwetting. According to him, it was twice the size of a child her age, the vaginal opening. So besides internal abuse, there is external abuse. I always thought okay, she had chronic infections from being wet and unclean all the time. But I don't believe that anymore. Someone was doing something to JB. The maid said she heard them in the bathroom yelling and crying all the time. They were in there, I think, because she wet herself again and Patsy was furious and yelling at her again.

But I will find the post about the pilings. I think you are right about where it was found, the robe. Let me see what I can find.

 

[Toltec]

I don't believe that JonBenet was intentionally killed. I believe it was an accident.

John and Patsy loved JonBenet and no way no how would they intentionally hurt her. Patsy, in a fit of rage, lost it and hit JonBenet over the head and concocted this kidnapping scheme for no other reason then self-preservation.

 

[julianne]

OK, first of all I am not one to think that punishing a child for bedwetting actual serves any purpose. BUT, I know that there are some that do punish for this act.

My question is this. Of all the types of punishments a parent could dole out, i.e., no TV, taking toys away, no playing outside, whatever, why in the hell would someone use "rough wiping" as a form of punishment? That's just bizarre to me. I don't get it.

 

[UKGuy]

OK, first of all I am not one to think that punishing a child for bedwetting actual serves any purpose. BUT, I know that there are some that do punish for this act.

My question is this. Of all the types of punishments a parent could dole out, i.e., no TV, taking toys away, no playing outside, whatever, why in the hell would someone use "rough wiping" as a form of punishment? That's just bizarre to me. I don't get it.

julianne,

I dont think you will get it either, its an interpretation of the facts, but it is not consistent with the brutality or violence of JonBenet's death.

So someone roughly wiped JonBenet down, what next?

I reckon this idea should be near the end of the explanation queue.


.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't believe that JonBenet was intentionally killed. I believe it was an accident.

John and Patsy loved JonBenet and no way no how would they intentionally hurt her. Patsy, in a fit of rage, lost it and hit JonBenet over the head and concocted this kidnapping scheme for no other reason then self-preservation.

Toltec,

John and Patsy loved JonBenet

Some people think JonBenet was loved in a manner that was incestuous?

no way no how would they intentionally hurt her

She was manually strangled, received a head injury, sexually assaulted, then subjected to a staged homicide, with her corpse being garroted and tethered.

I am afraid, sadly that the forensic evidence does not suggest that the above list of violations were unintentional.


.

 

[Solace]

Toltec,


Some people think JonBenet was loved in a manner that was incestuous?



She was manually strangled, received a head injury, sexually assaulted, then subjected to a staged homicide, with her corpse being garroted and tethered.

I am afraid, sadly that the forensic evidence does not suggest that the above list of violations were unintentional.


.

I agree with you UK. Even if Steve Thomas is correct and it was an accident that she was pushed and hit the bathtub. THAT IS QUITE A PUSH to cause an 8 1/2 inch gash and split her skull. That is not a rough pulling of her clothes off over her head and she falls. You have to be manhandling bigtime to get this kind of reaction.

 

[calicocat]

To pull out some things:

Quote:
Eagle1,

Here's some information about the "douches":
Steve Thomas HB "JonBenét" - page 227 (Courtesy of Little FFJ)

Page 227

In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country
reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation-that JonBenet
had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed.................

"There was chronic abuse" . . . "Past violation of the vagina" . . .

"Evidence of both acute injury and chronic sexual abuse." In other

words, the doctors were saying it had happened before. One expert

summed it up well when he said the injuries were no"t consistent with

sexual assault but with a child who was being physically abused.


None of those things would be untrue of using douches on a 6 yr old.
One of the problems with expert examiners is that they tend to see what they are used to seeing.
Some did look at the injuries to JB and say that maybe it was not so straight-forward as just being a case of sexual abuse.
One was Dr. Richard Krugman who said " Was she sexually assaulted? Did she die because of the cord buried deep in the flesh of her neck, or because of her severely fractured skull?
Krugman isn't sure of the answer to either question. But he said he is certain that she was physically abused.
"I know nothing that I have seen that would make me think the primary finding is sexual abuse,'' Krugman said."
Dr. Lee has said it appeared to him to be a domestic accident.

Well, I get your point, sue, but here's the thing: if the chronic vaginal injuries were caused by Patsy giving JonBenet douches, that in and of itself is physical abuse.

These are on Forums for Justice.

 

[JMO8778]

julianne,

I dont think you will get it either, its an interpretation of the facts, but it is not consistent with the brutality or violence of JonBenet's death.

So someone roughly wiped JonBenet down, what next?

I reckon this idea should be near the end of the explanation queue.


.

I didn't say I thought it was a form of punishment, only that PR could have been wiping her too roughly out of anger when she was cleaning her up.
I don't think that accounts for the internal abuse tho.IMO that was probably sexual abuse.

 

[JMO8778]

Hi UK,

Rashomon just posted on A&E for me quotes from the 2000 interview with John Ramsey - where Levin asserts that "pilings" from John's blue robe were found in JB's underwear".

John replies "".

The robe was found in the floor in his bedroom I b elieve. So the robe was used to wipe her down.

I have said I always believed Thomas' theory that it was corporal punishment that gave way to the theory of sexual abuse (corporal punishment by Patsy). But I am not so sure anymore. It is looking more and more like sexual abuse.

I think so, too.I also think Dr Lee was right when he said he thought the flashlight caused the head injury.I think I read somewhere that JR kept one beside his bed?It sounds to me like she was in bed w him.JMO.

 

[Eagle1]

There's really not much to tell. The interviewer drops that one on him, he jumps in his chair ramrod straight and blurts out "bull****." He sputters a little bit about how disgusting that is, and so forth, until Woody cuts in, most likely saving him from complete meltdown.

Thanks for the name correction earlier, Judith Philips.

And about the father-daughter relationship, your earlier post, Ewwwww! You must have heard that idea from some guy? Agressors typically tell themselves the victim likes it, to stroke their own ego. That'd be "all in the eye of the beholder", imho.

JonBenet was always going to the school nurse, well, at least twice that we know of, on Mon. mornings, to complain, not long before the murder.

Yes, Judith Philips, thanks much.

 

[angelwngs]

Thanks for the name correction earlier, Judith Philips.

And about the father-daughter relationship, your earlier post, Ewwwww! You must have heard that idea from some guy? Agressors typically tell themselves the victim likes it, to stroke their own ego. That'd be "all in the eye of the beholder", imho.

JonBenet was always going to the school nurse, well, at least twice that we know of, on Mon. mornings, to complain, not long before the murder.

Yes, Judith Philips, thanks much.

From having taught elementary school, I remember one little girl I taught that indicated that she indeed did 'like it'.

Also, from a teacher point of view, 99.9% of the children who went to the nurse on Monday mornings were either genuinely sent by the parent to school sick, (with colds, stomach viruses, fevers, etc.), or they simply wanted to go home to be with Mommie...

No teacher worth the salt in her food would repeatedly send a child to the nurse on Monday mornings or any other morning, if she suspected abuse. If she did without first formally reporting the suspected abuse, she would find herself without a job and most likely with a lawsuit against her.

 

[Eagle1]

From having taught elementary school, I remember one little girl I taught that indicated that she indeed did 'like it'.

Also, from a teacher point of view, 99.9% of the children who went to the nurse on Monday mornings were either genuinely sent by the parent to school sick, (with colds, stomach viruses, fevers, etc.), or they simply wanted to go home to be with Mommie...

No teacher worth the salt in her food would repeatedly send a child to the nurse on Monday mornings or any other morning, if she suspected abuse. If she did without first formally reporting the suspected abuse, she would find herself without a job and most likely with a lawsuit against her.

How in the world did she indicate that she "liked it"? If you don't mind getting more exact about it.

Probably everyone's getting tired of my theory that all the adults, professionals or otherwise, were living under the shadow of some organization if they wanted continued business and personal success in the town, but I'm stating it yet again in case anyone missed it.

A large INTERNATIONAL pedophile ring had just been busted in Boulder before the murder, we heard early on. Question, why wasn't there police bungling and fear among the BPD, or was there, so that they really didn't get even nearly all of them?

So it was evidently customary in Boulder that nobody ever stuck their neck out! There has to be a reason, you know. Probably teachers and everyone knew which side their bread was buttered on.

That's my guess, and feel free to suggest others. The parents were also taking anti-anxiety meds, which maybe had them in denial about the need for more, not less, security measures.

 

[BBB167893]

"Do you believe there was sexual abuse going on in that house between John and JB?"

Solace, I've said several times that I am not ready to say he did it. But I have to admit, the fibers and his consistently inappropriate reactions to thay line of questioning get my guts tied up.

"My question is this. Of all the types of punishments a parent could dole out, i.e., no TV, taking toys away, no playing outside, whatever, why in the hell would someone use 'rough wiping' as a form of punishment? That's just bizarre to me. I don't get it."

It's fairly simple, julianne: it attacks the very source of the problem.

"And about the father-daughter relationship, your earlier post, Ewwwww! You must have heard that idea from some guy? Agressors typically tell themselves the victim likes it, to stroke their own ego."

No, ma'am! That was from the VICTIM'S OWN MOUTH! I quote:

"About the third time, I got to like it."

And you're right: it IS disgusting! But I thought it had to be said, even hypothetically.

From having taught elementary school, I remember one little girl I taught that indicated that she indeed did 'like it'.

How in the world did she indicate that she "liked it"? If you don't mind getting more exact about it.

I'll hate myself for this, but I have to hear this one as well.

 

[Eagle1]

About how old was this victim who said after about the 3rd time she began to like it? Was this a famous case?