Abuse and JonBenet

[cappuccina]

....folks at her school were concerned about how whe was being cared for.... Rumor has it that there was concern about JBR being hungry all the time, wearing too much makeup, and about Patsy taking her out of school for pageants, and for making her perform for long hours at the school during some holiday show, I believe...I think people were afraid to challenge the Ramseys which is too bad because if they had, JBR might still be here... IMO

 

[UKGuy]

....folks at her school were concerned about how whe was being cared for.... Rumor has it that there was concern about JBR being hungry all the time, wearing too much makeup, and about Patsy taking her out of school for pageants, and for making her perform for long hours at the school during some holiday show, I believe...I think people were afraid to challenge the Ramseys which is too bad because if they had, JBR might still be here... IMO

cappuccina,

This is an interesting topic, one worth exploring further, possibly in its own thread?

wearing too much makeup

At six-years old was this true?



.

 

[narlacat]

....folks at her school were concerned about how whe was being cared for.... Rumor has it that there was concern about JBR being hungry all the time, wearing too much makeup, and about Patsy taking her out of school for pageants, and for making her perform for long hours at the school during some holiday show, I believe...I think people were afraid to challenge the Ramseys which is too bad because if they had, JBR might still be here... IMO

And those are the reasons PR's friends were planning an intervention.

 

[Eagle1]

When Nedra was interviewed in her home for the Geraldo Rivera show (PMPT paperback, p. 512), she was referring to what she thought happened to JB when she was killed, not to chronic abuse.

[Nedra]: "I didn't know that she had been mole ... molested to some extent and hit on the head. I didn't know that."

Thanks, Rashomon.

 

[Eagle1]

To pull out some things:

Quote:
Eagle1,

Here's some information about the "douches":
Steve Thomas HB "JonBenét" - page 227 (Courtesy of Little FFJ...

Whoops! This isn't my quote, Calicocat! Couple of people have got me mixed up with someone else. I just pulled the book down off the shelf and agreed with UKGuy that I could find nothing about douching. I asked How would ST even know about that? PR wouldn't have told him. And he did not claim anything like that.

I'm certainly not the source. Someone's saying they have an old-fashioned douche thingy with a hose, (inherited from Gone With the Wind days?) and assuming PR had one too, evidently. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just giving the only example I can immediately think of and obviously I don't want to be so misquoted. I'm not sure who first did it, as this is a clicked-on quote from someone else besides Calico.

Through the years we all may have come to believe some things that are just not true, come to think of it. For instance, what proof do we have that PR and her sisters were abused as children? I've been guilty of believing it too.

 

[BBB167893]

"Through the years we all may have come to believe some things that are just not true, come to think of it. For instance, what proof do we have that PR and her sisters were abused as children? I've been guilty of believing it too."

Well, as I've said, there's nothing (to me) concrete in that regard. But you ask:

1) Her reaction when asked about it is fascinating, to say the least.

 

[Veronica10]

Cappucina and Narlacat -

So interesting..wearing make-up, Patsy taking JBR out of school for pageants, etc. Definitely abuse in my book. Do you know which friends were talking about an intervention with Patsy? Do you have any more info. on this?

 

[Zelda]

Hi UK,

Rashomon just posted on A&E for me quotes from the 2000 interview with John Ramsey - where Levin asserts that "pilings" from John's blue robe were found in JB's underwear".

John replies "".

The robe was found in the floor in his bedroom I b.elieve. So the robe was used to wipe her down.

I have said I always believed Thomas' theory that it was corporal punishment that gave way to the theory of sexual abuse (corporal punishment by Patsy). But I am not so sure anymore. It is looking more and more like sexual abuse.

What type of corporal punishment would lead to death by a blow to the head or stragulation. And if one or both of the Ramseys were using corporal punishment wouldn't there be some evidence of past behavior. Or wouldn't someone know about it?

I'm reading Thomas' book and find it very enlighting. When I first looked at the book I belived in the intruder theory, so I didn't pay much attention to Thomas' RDI theory. Now I do.

 

[LinasK]

....folks at her school were concerned about how whe was being cared for.... Rumor has it that there was concern about JBR being hungry all the time, wearing too much makeup, and about Patsy taking her out of school for pageants, and for making her perform for long hours at the school during some holiday show, I believe...I think people were afraid to challenge the Ramseys which is too bad because if they had, JBR might still be here... IMO

The make-up doesn't surprise me, after all what other mother dyes their child's hair-whole head, we're not talking highlights here- at age 6!!!:doh: :doh: :doh:

 

[concernedperson]

The make-up doesn't surprise me, after all what other mother dyes their child's hair-whole head, we're not talking highlights here- at age 6!!!:doh: :doh: :doh:

This bothers me a lot. But everything bothers me about this case.

There is definitely abuse just with this acknowledgement and I suspect there is more.We may never hear the full extent.

 

[BBB167893]

"What type of corporal punishment would lead to death by a blow to the head or strangulation."

The kind that's used to make the punisher feel better, not correct the problem.

Dr. Judianne Densen-Gerber once said she thought the garrote was a punishment device for bedwetting. By that, she meant that someone would lead JB around on it like a dog.

"And if one or both of the Ramseys were using corporal punishment wouldn't there be some evidence of past behavior. Or wouldn't someone know about it?"

Funny you should say that. LHP wrote that Patsy took JB into the bathroom and pretty much beat the heck out of her. You could hear screaming through the door and walls.

 

[Zelda]

"What type of corporal punishment would lead to death by a blow to the head or strangulation."

The kind that's used to make the punisher feel better, not correct the problem.

Dr. Judianne Densen-Gerber once said she thought the garrote was a punishment device for bedwetting. By that, she meant that someone would lead JB around on it like a dog.

"And if one or both of the Ramseys were using corporal punishment wouldn't there be some evidence of past behavior. Or wouldn't someone know about it?"

Funny you should say that. LHP wrote that Patsy took JB into the bathroom and pretty much beat the heck out of her. You could hear screaming through the door and walls.

Who is JD-G? I don't recognize the name. When she referred to a garrote
as punishment was she being specific about JBR or was she speaking generally? I'd like a link if you have one.

To lead a child around with a garrote around her neck as a punishment for bed-wetting doesn't make sense. I don't see the connection. Many stories talk about bed-wetters and describe punishments related to wet sheets, wet clothes and shaming the child.

 

[UKGuy]

What type of corporal punishment would lead to death by a blow to the head or stragulation. And if one or both of the Ramseys were using corporal punishment wouldn't there be some evidence of past behavior. Or wouldn't someone know about it?

I'm reading Thomas' book and find it very enlighting. When I first looked at the book I belived in the intruder theory, so I didn't pay much attention to Thomas' RDI theory. Now I do.

Zelda,

If corporal punishment was a prominent feature in this case we would have heard about it by now.

Its actually an aspect for which there is no forensic evidence, none certainly predating JonBenet's death, not unless the family doctor was ignoring or hiding evidence.

Patsy may have shouted, JonBenet may have cried, all within the context of parental remonstration. It is possible that Patsy instituted a secret regime of corporal punishment, but as yet there is nothing but speculation.

Steve Thomas' explanation is fairly cohesive and plausible if that was all that required explaining, but we have an accident being masked with a murder which is of an order of magnitude quite serious.

Also Steve Thomas' Accident Did It theory fails to account for a lot of the subsiduary evidence.

imo either the parents were enjoined in a partnership that murdered JonBenet or they each have separate, no less criminal, motives for sharing a common partnership?

The garrote was applied after JonBenet was killed, and used a fixed knot, which would make it unfit for the imagined purpose. Also JonBenet's hair was entwined and embedded into the knotting on the paintbrush handle. You can view this in the autopsy photos. If it had ever been used, JonBenet's hair would have been pulled by its roots from her scalp. So the garrote is pure staging designed like other features in the wine-cellar to send you on a wild-goose chase. Such as speculating over corporal punishment devices.


Other than her cranial fracture, JonBenet has other injuries on her face and body, these cannot be explained away as accidental, so along with the staging and evidence of prior sexual activity, its possible alternate explanations can be promoted.


.

 

[Eagle1]

Sounds logical and reasonable but if the garrotte wasn't really used, what about the deep furrows in her neck and the fingernail marks from trying to claw it away?

 

[UKGuy]

Sounds logical and reasonable but if the garrotte wasn't really used, what about the deep furrows in her neck and the fingernail marks from trying to claw it away?

Eagle1,

Although I am suggesting that the garrote was not used. This does not preclude the use of the ligature on its own.

The fingernail marks must mean she was alive when being asphyxiated, just how do the Head Bash came first theorists explain the patently non-accidental asphyxiation?

The furrow would arise even if the ligature was applied and tightened post-mortem.

To account for JonBenet's injuries either they arise from a frenzied assault or an interlude of violent assault.

Another way to look at it, might be, to consider JonBenet was manually strangled, and thats how the fingernail marks arise.

Then in an initial staging to cover this up, the ligature on its own was applied, later amended to add the garrote.

That is someone deliberately attacked JonBenet subjecting her to blows about the head and face, including other parts of her body, finally whacking her on the head causing the cranial fracture. Its possible she was sitting tethered on a chair?

Then she was manually strangled, and further staging applied.

So you can speculate about the sequence, head injuries, followed by a strangulation, or a strangulation preceding a head injury, but adding up all her injuries this does not appear accidental to me?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Sounds logical and reasonable but if the garrotte wasn't really used, what about the deep furrows in her neck and the fingernail marks from trying to claw it away?

I don't think she clawed at her neck while being strangled, because Meyer did not find her skin under her nails. If she scratched at her throat during strangulation enough to leave fingernail marks, then her skin should have been under her nails. It wasn't.

Not only that, there is very little damage to the interior of her neck, as if she didn't struggle at all. The hyoid bone is still intact as were the thyroid and cricoid cartilages, and her trachea. The strap muscles of her neck were not hemorrhaged. Her tongue and the insides of her cheeks were unblemished as well, and usually stragulation victims will bite their tongue and cheeks during the strangling.

JonBenet's neck gives no indication that she was struggling or even conscious while she was being strangled, and when you consider the killer tied the knot and the back of neck and that her long johns were urine-stained in the crotch and in the front, it sounds to me like she was strangled facedown from behind, and she did not struggle against her killer at all.

 

[UKGuy]

it sounds to me like she was strangled facedown from behind, and she did not struggle against her killer at all.

Nuisanceposter,

The application of the garrote is staged and probably post-mortem, hence no struggle.

That she was strangled facedown is controversial since the contusions and abrasions that are beneath the ligature, on the front of her neck, appear to be the result of a manual strangulation.

As you point out there are next to no internal neck injuries, and none on the back of her neck?

As per the staging, consider it step by step, and JonBenet would have been undressed, redressed, her corpse relocated etc. This must mean her corpse was turned over either to facilitate her being wiped down, and redressed in size-12 underwear, or turned over to have the garrote applied, depending on your chosen sequence of events.

The extent of the urine-staining on her size-12 underwear may suggest this occurred prior to her being redressed, or after. Some argue it is simply post-mortem residue, alternately it occurred at the moment of death as a reflex evacuation?

I suspect JonBenet may have been tied up with the cord prior to it being used as a ligature?

That is she may have been tethered to a chair, or simply hog-tied in some manner, this being modified to form part of the initial staging.

A ligature is not required to asphyxiate a 6-year old child, it may form the first attempt at masking the manual strangulation, which then morphed into a garrote and ransom-note abduction?


.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't think she clawed at her neck while being strangled, because Meyer did not find her skin under her nails. If she scratched at her throat during strangulation enough to leave fingernail marks, then her skin should have been under her nails. It wasn't.

Not only that, there is very little damage to the interior of her neck, as if she didn't struggle at all. The hyoid bone is still intact as were the thyroid and cricoid cartilages, and her trachea. The strap muscles of her neck were not hemorrhaged. Her tongue and the insides of her cheeks were unblemished as well, and usually stragulation victims will bite their tongue and cheeks during the strangling.

JonBenet's neck gives no indication that she was struggling or even conscious while she was being strangled, and when you consider the killer tied the knot and the back of neck and that her long johns were urine-stained in the crotch and in the front, it sounds to me like she was strangled facedown from behind, and she did not struggle against her killer at all.

Not only that, but there were no defensive wounds on her hands, arms, etc.

Who is JD-G? I don't recognize the name. When she referred to a garrote
as punishment was she being specific about JBR or was she speaking generally? I'd like a link if you have one.

She's gone now, but she was the wife of forensic pathologist Michael Baden. She was a forensic psychiatrist.

She mean JB specifically. No need for a link. I have her statement at hand.

To lead a child around with a garrote around her neck as a punishment for bed-wetting doesn't make sense. I don't see the connection. Many stories talk about bed-wetters and describe punishments related to wet sheets, wet clothes and shaming the child.

Well, here's what JD-G had to say:

"You can almost imagine an enraged parent putting it around a child's neck, saying, 'You wet the bed again. Now you're going to be like a dog. I'll walk you around like a dog to pee.'"

Not saying I buy it, but if people want to read it, that's fine by me.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I'm not arguing about thinking JonBenet may have been manually strangled. I think it looks very much like someone grabbed her by the collar and it choked her, as well as made those bruises, and that's most likely why they decided to opt for the garotte - trying to cover up injuries to the neck with injuries to the neck. Perhaps it would have been wiser for them to tie the knot in the front...but then they'd have to see her face, and I don't think the killer wanted that.

She had to have been alive while strangled, because the autopsy lists that as primary cause of death. I'm willing to bet the strangler thought she was dead when s/he tied the cord around her neck.

I have always thought her clothes were urine-stained because they were on her when she ultimately died, after she had been wiped down and redressed, but maybe not. I did hear someone say a while ago that the long johns were urine-stained, but the bloomies underneath weren't. I only heard that once and can't remember where or who - does anyone else have any clarification on that?

 

[UKGuy]

I'm not arguing about thinking JonBenet may have been manually strangled. I think it looks very much like someone grabbed her by the collar and it choked her, as well as made those bruises, and that's most likely why they decided to opt for the garotte - trying to cover up injuries to the neck with injuries to the neck. Perhaps it would have been wiser for them to tie the knot in the front...but then they'd have to see her face, and I don't think the killer wanted that.

She had to have been alive while strangled, because the autopsy lists that as primary cause of death. I'm willing to bet the strangler thought she was dead when s/he tied the cord around her neck.

I have always thought her clothes were urine-stained because they were on her when she ultimately died, after she had been wiped down and redressed, but maybe not. I did hear someone say a while ago that the long johns were urine-stained, but the bloomies underneath weren't. I only heard that once and can't remember where or who - does anyone else have any clarification on that?

Nuisanceposter,

Coroner Meyer states ligature strangulation was a cause of death.
But with no underlying neck injuries I just wonder if that was the last word? He makes no comment other than to note the abrasions and contusions beneath the ligature.


Long Underwear:

There are long white underwear with an elastic waist band containing a red
and blue stripe. The long underwear are urine stained anteriorly over
the crotch area and anterior legs. No defects are identified.

Size-12's:

Beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the words "Wednesday" on the elastic waist band. The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch maximum dimension.

Its possible that the size-12's are urine stained by osmosis, or its a post-mortem release. Otherwise there is a case to argue that she was wearing them when she was killed?



.