Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #2

[gitana1]

Sounds like the rules are to cheat the angle when pointing it at anyone, to use a remote camera and use some type of screening to protect the camera. They were short a camera, so maybe that was the remote one.

I believe all 3 have culpability

You may believe that but it is not fact. Baldwin’s legal culpability would only be present if he was part of the hiring of the AD and armorer in this movie, both of which were apparently hired on the cheap and had issues.

Baldwin as an actor otherwise has zero legal culpability when it comes to his use as directed of props, including practicing with them. Again, it would be impossible for an actor to be an expert as to safety with all the props they handle.

 

[wary]

Dbm

 

[Cryptic]

Unless the revolver was custom made and designed, all single action Western style revolvers, whether they have a transfer bar safety or not, cannot be fired by simply pulling the trigger. All of them require cocking the revolver by pulling back the hammer to the full position.

The trigger on this type of revolver is fixed in place and cannot be pulled unless the hammer is cocked (pulled back).

In the early 1960s there was one double action revolver made to look like a single action revolver. It hasn’t been made for about 50 years.

Thanks for your detailed information and very in depth knowledge.

@Gardenista In all probability, Baldwin would have needed to the weapon by pulling the hammer back before firing it

(Given Baldwin's anti gun stance, I cant really see him having the interest to commission a custom "looks old west single action- but is really a double action" type revolver).

 

[Satchie]

dbm, quote removed

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Some sort of colored dot on the round.

A colored dot would be easy to miss. I did a Google search and found some dummy rounds that are brightly colored so it's hard to mistake them for live ammunition. I have some .357 snap cap dummy rounds that I use for practice that are completely black.

These are used for practicing loading and trigger pull. They sure wouldn't look right on camera. JMO.

5 Best Dummy Rounds & Snap Caps For Dry-Fire Practice

 

[Satchie]

You may believe that but it is not fact. Baldwin’s legal culpability would only be present if he was part of the hiring of the AD and armorer in this movie, both of which were apparently hired on the cheap and had issues.

Baldwin as an actor otherwise has zero legal culpability when it comes to his use as directed of props, including practicing with them. Again, it would be impossible for an actor to be an expert as to safety with all the props they handle.

Agree - as I mentioned in a deleted post, we all do many dangerous things that we trust other people to have done their diligence on safety - like getting on an airplane.

ETA: and imagine the chaos if everyone getting on the plane was determined to do their own personal safety check: is my life jacket really under the seat, can I interview the pilot on his qualifications, please show me the engine so I can check for oil...

 

[Satchie]

A colored dot would be easy to miss. I did a Google search and found some dummy rounds that are brightly colored so it's hard to mistake them for live ammunition. I have some .357 snap cap dummy rounds that I use for practice that are completely black.

These are used for practicing loading and trigger pull. They sure wouldn't look right on camera. JMO.

5 Best Dummy Rounds & Snap Caps For Dry-Fire Practice

Thanks, but that does seem to be what the gun was supposed to be loaded with, for the rehearsal.

 

[gitana1]

MOO

I’ve seen comments saying that it’s not fair to make actors learn and abide by gun safety rules.

I believe that the fundamental rule of gun safety is simple enough for almost any actor to understand. The Gun Is Always Loaded. Limited exemptions follow that, but they do not include someone just saying “cold gun.”

MOO

It is not about fairness. It’s about legalities and practicalities. If you expect actors to know and use gun safety rules with a prop gun then you must expect them to know and use safety rules when it comes to ANY dangerous prop they work with.

That’s not possible. It would mire production in legalities that would make filming impossible. That’s why experts are hired to deal with safety.

The world isn’t expected to know gun safety rules and be deemed legally negligent if they don’t. As an example, if someone leaves a loaded gun at home on a table and then goes out to dinner, and their teenage child has a couple friends come over, one of whom picks up the gun, is mistakenly told it is not loaded and accidentally discharges it, killing the other friend, the parents of the shooter will not be liable. Neither will the shooter himself. The child of the gun owner won’t even be liable.

The gun owner who negligently left a loaded gun on the table, is the only one who will be held liable.

The laws of negligence don’t require that everyone, child or adult, know gun safety rules. Only those who actually own the guns are required to have a level of expertise regarding their safety.

 

[jjenny]

A colored dot would be easy to miss. I did a Google search and found some dummy rounds that are brightly colored so it's hard to mistake them for live ammunition. I have some .357 snap cap dummy rounds that I use for practice that are completely black.

These are used for practicing loading and trigger pull. They sure wouldn't look right on camera. JMO.

5 Best Dummy Rounds & Snap Caps For Dry-Fire Practice

Sorry, not a dot, a hole on the side.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

MOO

I’ve seen comments saying that it’s not fair to make actors learn and abide by gun safety rules.

I believe that the fundamental rule of gun safety is simple enough for almost any actor to understand. The Gun Is Always Loaded. Limited exemptions follow that, but they do not include someone just saying “cold gun.”

MOO

I don't care for this "cold gun" or "hot gun" film set usage.

Guns should always be considered "hot" no matter what someone tells you. JMO.

 

[ilovewings]

dbm, quote removed

In medical malpractice there are what is termed "standards of care " or
"standards of practice"--- the medical community (physicians) have basically set these standards: when these standards are breached, the result is medical malpractice. Are there standards of practice with respect to the issue of guns on the sets of hollywood movies? who sets those standards? If there are not standards, there surely should be.
Sounds to me from what I have read there are protocols (standards) on how guns are handled on the set, who handles the gun, who determines the gun is safe, etc. I presume the investigation will center on those standards or protocols. when a catastrophe like this occurs, you can be sure there were multiple failures at various levels that resulted in this horrific death.

 

[gitana1]

Agree - as I mentioned in a deleted post, we all do many dangerous things that we trust other people to have done their diligence on safety - like getting on an airplane.

ETA: and imagine the chaos if everyone getting on the plane was determined to do their own personal safety check: is my life jacket really under the seat, can I interview the pilot on his qualifications, please show me the engine so I can check for oil...

Yes. And in fact, requiring the actor to be the safety expert when it comes to the prop gun would muddy the responsibilities of the prop master and weapons master on sets because they could say, “it was safe when I checked. But the actor opened the chamber. I’m not sure what happened after that.”

 

[wary]

I don't care for this "cold gun" or "hot gun" film set usage.

Guns should always be considered "hot" no matter what someone tells you. JMO.

MOO

I totally agree! And I still can’t understand why someone would be pulling the trigger during a rehearsal? Method acting?

MOO

 

[Satchie]

As the Sheriff referred to, the film/TV/live theatre industry produces probably hundreds of entertainment products that use real guns, every year. There hasn't been an accident since the early 1990s. So, in actual fact, the standards are there, and they must be pretty good, since a 30 year accident-free track record is pretty high in any field.

JMO.

ETA: corrected to early 1990s

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Sorry, not a dot, a hole on the side.

Interesting. The only way to see if a case has a hole in the side is to remove the cartridge from the gun to inspect it.

Also if a live primer is in the case it could cause a squib load situation like the one that killed Brandon Lee. The primer had enough energy to lodge the bullet in the barrel and later on a blank was fired from the gun which launched the bullet at deadly velocity. Seems way to dangerous to me. JMO.

 

[Satchie]

Yes. And in fact, requiring the actor to be the safety expert when it comes to the prop gun would muddy the responsibilities of the prop master and weapons master on sets because they could say, “it was safe when I checked. But the actor opened the chamber. I’m not sure what happened after that.”

Yes, I was thinking, that appears to be the case here where the AD didn't personally handle the gun, the Armorer did that and the AD just looked. The AD can't be expected to be knowledgeable in how to safely check this type of gun, either.

 

[gitana1]

In medical malpractice there are what is termed "standards of care " or
"standards of practice"--- the medical community (physicians) have basically set these standards: when these standards are breached, the result is medical malpractice. Are there standards of practice with respect to the issue of guns on the sets of hollywood movies? who sets those standards? If there are not standards, there surely should be.
Sounds to me from what I have read there are protocols (standards) on how guns are handled on the set, who handles the gun, who determines the gun is safe, etc. I presume the investigation will center on those standards or protocols. when a catastrophe like this occurs, you can be sure there were multiple failures at various levels that resulted in this horrific death.

There are standards. The actor is not part of maintaining those standards. The prop master and weapons master (armorer in this case) are.

Here’s an article explaining the standards. Note that the check described applies to the weapons master, not the actor:

EXPLAINER: Guns on movie sets: How does that work?

I think for most gun owners the basic safety rules are so ingrained that it defies reason that anyone wouldn’t know them. Or that they would not apply on a movie set. But those are the facts.

The safety protocols regarding distance of the camera and barriers between the camera operator and the projectile have to do with blanks, not live ammo. They wouldn’t protect against live ammo.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

MOO

I totally agree! And I still can’t understand why someone would be pulling the trigger during a rehearsal? Method acting?

MOO

Alec Baldwin could have kept his finger off of the trigger while practicing the cross draw. JMO.

 

[Gardenista]

Here are the rules that are supposed to be followed for firearms on sets. I got this link from the NYT.

Firearms – Safety on the Set

 

[Dotta]

You may believe that but it is not fact. Baldwin’s legal culpability would only be present if he was part of the hiring of the AD and armorer in this movie, both of which were apparently hired on the cheap and had issues.

Baldwin as an actor otherwise has zero legal culpability when it comes to his use as directed of props, including practicing with them. Again, it would be impossible for an actor to be an expert as to safety with all the props they handle.

But ultimately it is HE who pulls the trigger!
What if he played a parachute jumper.
Wouldnt he want to check everything before the jump from the plane?
Of course he would, b/c it was HIS life at stake!