Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #2

[Lexiintoronto]

Yes. And in fact, requiring the actor to be the safety expert when it comes to the prop gun would muddy the responsibilities of the prop master and weapons master on sets because they could say, “it was safe when I checked. But the actor opened the chamber. I’m not sure what happened after that.”

I think there are ways so that it doesn’t get muddied. I agree with the practice of the armorer, AD and actors involved double-checking it in each other’s presence prior to it being put in an actor’s hands.

But I don’t understand why real guns or bullets were on site to begin with.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I wonder in the future if insurance companies require everyone who handles firearms on set to show proof of completion of a basic firearm safety course before liability insurance coverage is issued. JMO.

 

[Datchery]

But ultimately it is HE who pulls the trigger!
What if he played a parachute jumper.
Wouldnt he want to check everything before the jump from the plane?
Of course he would, b/c it was HIS life at stake!

I've seen this sentiment a few times, and it is really unfair, IMO.

I'm not sure that AB would have done anything different if he had been holding the gun to his own head. Maybe he would have. Maybe he wouldn't have. I doubt he would have checked anything himself if he were jumping out of a plane, as he likely wouldn't know what he was checking for. He would rely on the expert hired for that purpose.

In any case, no one knows what he would have done, so it isn't fair to criticize him on the assumption he would have taken more care in some hypothetical case in which he was at personal risk.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Thank you!
I would hate to accuse sb, especially Union workers.

Who is "sb"?

 

[Satchie]

I think there are ways so that it doesn’t get muddied. I agree with the practice of the armorer, AD and actors involved double-checking it in each other’s presence prior to it being put in an actor’s hands.

But I don’t understand why real guns or bullets were on site to begin with.

I think the real gun was an authenticity detail, like having real cowboy hats or whatever.

But the real bullets were definitely not part of the authenticity the film-makers were looking for (my weak attempt at irony).

However, they're probably related: IMO the rarity of the authentic-style gun probably lead someone to try it out with real bullets. The question is, who was that person.

 

[Dotta]

MOO

I totally agree! And I still can’t understand why someone would be pulling the trigger during a rehearsal? Method acting?

MOO

Not only pulling the trigger but aiming at a person!!!
Words fail me, it seems working on sets is life threatening.
Young naive people who dream of Hollywood should take reality check.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Who's up for negligent homicide charges here do we think?

Alec Baldwin
The Armorer
Assistant Director

I assume the producers could also be sued by the family for damages having not maintained gun safety on set.

 

[Dotta]

I've seen this sentiment a few times, and it is really unfair, IMO.

I'm not sure that AB would have done anything different if he had been holding the gun to his own head. Maybe he would have. Maybe he wouldn't have. I doubt he would have checked anything himself if he were jumping out of a plane, as he likely wouldn't know what he was checking for. He would rely on the expert hired for that purpose.

In any case, no one knows what he would have done, so it isn't fair to criticize him on the assumption he would have taken more care in some hypothetical case in which he was at personal risk.

Sorry, you dont understand what Im saying.
The protocol is:
You WATCH the specialist to DO it!

 

[PrairieWind]

You may believe that but it is not fact. Baldwin’s legal culpability would only be present if he was part of the hiring of the AD and armorer in this movie, both of which were apparently hired on the cheap and had issues.

Baldwin as an actor otherwise has zero legal culpability when it comes to his use as directed of props, including practicing with them. Again, it would be impossible for an actor to be an expert as to safety with all the props they handle.

I would disagree with this a bit. Baldwin, as a producer may or may not have some liability personally, but probably not. But he very well may have some liability personally as the one who fired the gun. Yes, I agree an actor working with a production company should be able to rely upon professionals on the set regarding firearms and rely on their assurance that is a "cold gun." However, an individual is always responsible for their own torts, separate from the torts of others. As an experienced actor, and one who had handled firearms, did he have a heightened duty to check this gun? Perhaps. But it is also widely accepted that an actor does not point any gun at anyone and pull the trigger. Why he did so is a mystery. I have no doubt that he did indeed believe this gun was "cold." However, the gun never should have been pointed at anyone, let alone the trigger pulled while doing so. If I was an attorney representing a victim, I would sue the production company, the armorer individually, the assistant director individually, whoever brought the live ammunition to the set, and AB individually. I may not be able to get an award against AB, but I could keep it in court. As for criminal liability, I don't see any criminal action on AB's part.

 

[Dotta]

Who is "sb"?

Somebody

 

[Thora_Jay]

‘Rust’ armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed tied to friend's death

Rookie armorer on Baldwin’s ‘Rust’ set tied to friend’s fatal crash


An insurance company for the rookie “Rust” armorer in charge of weapons when Alec Baldwin accidentally shot dead his cinematographer reportedly paid her close friend’s family $50,000 last year so she couldn’t be sued after he was killed in a drunken motorcycle crash.

Hannah Gutierrez-Reed’s friend Tyler Dyer wrecked his motorcycle in Arizona after attending a party with her and her boyfriend Aaron Butcher in August last year, TMZ reports.

more at link

 

[Satchie]

But ultimately it is HE who pulls the trigger!
What if he played a parachute jumper.
Wouldnt he want to check everything before the jump from the plane?
Of course he would, b/c it was HIS life at stake!

In a film, no actor would ever jump out of a real plane with a real parachute. The magic of film allows them to splice together footage of the real actor, filmed on a set, possibly a stunt double who looks like him, pretending to jump out of a plane which is a few feet above the ground and well padded to catch his fall, and a real parachutist doing the actual jump and landing.

 

[Arkay]

There are standards. The actor is not part of maintaining those standards. The prop master and weapons master (armorer in this case) are.

Here’s an article explaining the standards. Note that the check described applies to the weapons master, not the actor:

EXPLAINER: Guns on movie sets: How does that work?

I think for most gun owners the basic safety rules are so ingrained that it defies reason that anyone wouldn’t know them. Or that they would not apply on a movie set. But those are the facts.

The safety protocols regarding distance of the camera and barriers between the camera operator and the projectile have to do with blanks, not live ammo. They wouldn’t protect against live ammo.

Thx, @gitana1

I understand what you're explaining and of course as a lawyer you know what we laypeople do not. Much like AB should have been able to rely on the professionals whose jobs it was to take care of gun safety.

I get that he isn't legally responsible as an actor, and in his role as producer we still don't know what responsibilities he had. I think I just feel like he should have done something, even if not legally required. But this is just my after-the-fact bemoaning.

The link you've provided states that the armorer must be on set whenever a weapon is used. Does that mean that HGR had to be inside the church where the scene was set, or just generally on set outside the church? It seems to be that she would have had to be right there where the weapon was to be deployed, but I don't know if she was. We did learn that 16 people we present so I presume she was???????


ETA: @Thora_Jay just now saw your post on HGR and the fatal motorcycle accident!!! What the what????? She's a menace to society.

 

[Dotta]

In a film, no actor would ever jump out of a real plane with a real parachute. The magic of film allows them to splice together footage of the real actor, filmed on a set, possibly a stunt double who looks like him, pretending to jump out of a plane which is a few feet above the ground and well padded to catch his fall, and a real parachutist doing the actual jump and landing.

Poetic licence haha

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I would disagree with this a bit. Baldwin, as a producer may or may not have some liability personally, but probably not. But he very well may have some liability personally as the one who fired the gun. Yes, I agree an actor working with a production company should be able to rely upon professionals on the set regarding firearms and rely on their assurance that is a "cold gun." However, an individual is always responsible for their own torts, separate from the torts of others. As an experienced actor, and one who had handled firearms, did he have a heightened duty to check this gun? Perhaps. But it is also widely accepted that an actor does not point any gun at anyone and pull the trigger. Why he did so is a mystery. I have no doubt that he did indeed believe this gun was "cold." However, the gun never should have been pointed at anyone, let alone the trigger pulled while doing so. If I was an attorney representing a victim, I would sue the production company, the armorer individually, the assistant director individually, whoever brought the live ammunition to the set, and AB individually. I may not be able to get an award against AB, but I could keep it in court. As for criminal liability, I don't see any criminal action on AB's part.

I have a question. If in a future civil or criminal case evidence is presented that shows Alec Baldwin had personally checked a firearm was safe or someone showed him it was safe during the filming of previous movies, can that be used to show he knew the importance of personally knowing a gun was safe for him to handle?

Link below to IMFDB showing films where he has used firearms.

Alec Baldwin - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games

 

[Gardenista]

I have a question. If in a future civil or criminal case evidence is presented that shows Alec Baldwin had personally checked a firearm was safe or someone showed him it was safe during the filming of previous movies, can that be used to show he knew the importance of personally knowing a gun was safe for him to handle?

Link below to IMFDB showing films where he has used firearms.

Alec Baldwin - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games

Great question, I've been wondering that myself, since it seems most actors/armorers who have come forward have said that is how it is supposed to be done.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

It would appear if the gun had dummy rounds (rounds that are intert and can not fire) they called it a cold gun.

BBM
I'm confused. I know very little about guns. Do you mean inert?

 

[Dotta]

Who's up for negligent homicide charges here do we think?

Alec Baldwin
The Armorer
Assistant Director

I assume the producers could also be sued by the family for damages having not maintained gun safety on set.

And the culprit target shooter who was so criminally stupid that he/she didnt clean the Colt (eg: covered his/her tracks).

 

[GatorFL]

There are standards. The actor is not part of maintaining those standards. The prop master and weapons master (armorer in this case) are.

Here’s an article explaining the standards. Note that the check described applies to the weapons master, not the actor:

EXPLAINER: Guns on movie sets: How does that work?

I think for most gun owners the basic safety rules are so ingrained that it defies reason that anyone wouldn’t know them. Or that they would not apply on a movie set. But those are the facts.

The safety protocols regarding distance of the camera and barriers between the camera operator and the projectile have to do with blanks, not live ammo. They wouldn’t protect against live ammo.

But that's an industry standard, not a legal one. IANAL but I am of the opinion for justice to be served, Baldwin will be culpable.

 

[Gardenista]

'Rust' assistant director admits he didn’t check all rounds in gun before fatal shooting

There are more new details in this article than what is below, but it would be over 10% if I put it here.

According to a crew member, who asked not to be identified because they were not authorized to speak on record, the shot being rehearsed at the time of the shooting was intended to be a close-up that would show Baldwin’s hand and holster and look down the barrel of the revolver.

According to an earlier affidavit filed by the Sheriff’s Office, Halls allegedly yelled “cold gun,” meaning the weapon was not loaded, as he was handing it to Baldwin. But the crew member remembers Gutierrez Reed as being the one to have pronounced the gun “cold.”