Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #2

[jjenny]

Basic gun safety 101 is not loading and unloading the gun yourself but being able to verify if it is loaded, if a round is still in the chamber, being able to recognize if it’s loaded or unloaded when you ask the armorer to open it up and verify the status of the gun, to know to always treat the gun as loaded and never put your finger on the trigger unless you intend to purposefully pull that trigger.

Again, the gun was loaded with dummy rounds. And one live round. If Baldwin opened the gun, he wouldn't have been able to verify it was unloaded because it was in fact loaded. With dummy rounds. And one live round.

 

[PrairieWind]

Baldwin would have to unload the gun in order to check it. Armorer is the one who loads and unloads the gun.

Ideally the armorer would load the gun in front the actor and another safety person. Just trusting the armorer, one set of eyes, is not sufficient.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

The gun was loaded with dummy rounds. Opening it up wouldn't prove the gun is cold. It would have to be unloaded and each round inspected.

Opening it up and verifying that it’s loaded with the proper ammo, that might require showing that ammo. That is one more step in the safety protocol for the armorer to verify everything is as it should be.

 

[jjenny]

Ideally the armorer would load the gun in front the actor and another safety person. Just trusting the armorer, one set of eyes, is not sufficient.

That's why they had AD to check it. AD was supposed to have checked it, but didn't do a good job of it, by his own admission.

 

[branmuffin]

She was probably the only one who would take it. IIRC according to an earlier article. They combined the job of armorer with a second job involving props.

Based on this prop master's comments it seems it hasn't be all that unusual to combine the talents of the prop master and the armourer. Here's the link:

I'm a prop master for 'Law & Order: SVU' who helped create a weapons-safety class for union workers. Here's what my job is like.

 

[PoppyBear]

wanted to add that I do agree with today’s technology that can create any effect, there is never any reason to have a real gun and live ammo on a movie set.

I agree. Especially if the protocol is to hand off responsibility to someone not handling the gun. Especially if actors are unwilling to get a visual that the gun is not loaded.

The gun was loaded with dummy rounds. Opening it up wouldn't prove the gun is cold. It would have to be unloaded and each round inspected.

I am not sure why that is unreasonable. Inspect each round and nobody dies. Guns aren’t toys and they aren’t intended to help create movies.

It wouldn't be wise to require actors to load and unload the guns. The gun has to be inspected prior to being given to the actor. Including looked in the barrel to make sure the barrel is empty. Dummy rounds look like the real rounds. Without unloading the gun and inspecting each round (for hole in its side) it would not be possible to verify the gun is loaded with dummy rounds as opposed to live rounds.

Again, it is hardly unreasonable to expect Alec Baldwin to visually confirm a gun is “safe.”

 

[jjenny]

Based on this prop master's comments it seems it hasn't be all that unusual to combine the talents of the prop master and the armourer. Here's the link:

I'm a prop master for 'Law & Order: SVU' who helped create a weapons-safety class for union workers. Here's what my job is like.

From the article.
"When weapons are going to be fired on set, that responsibility falls to the prop master — and in more recent times, often an weapons specialist known as an armorer, whom we bring in as an additional precautionary measure."
A Prop Master for 'Law & Order: SVU' on What His Job Is Like (businessinsider.com)

 

[fred&edna]

MOO

She can practice the draw with a fake gun. When she graduates to a real gun, the blocking can make sure that she’s not pointing the gun at anyone. When they film, why not use a remote-controlled camera?

And yes, in some cases, rewriting the script might be in order, specially in the case you describe, where someone is not physically capable of gun safety. If you have to show the finger pulling the trigger, why not make it a close-up?

MOO

I'm all for safety practices! I just don't think the actor is the end-all be-all for safety on a movie set.

 

[jjenny]

I'm all for safety practices! I just don't think the actor is the end-all be-all for safety on a movie set.

They are not. That's why the movie sets have a prop master, and an armorer if guns are involved. Then the AD is responsible for safety on the set.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

There are different ways to mark dummy rounds. Here is an example of dummy round with hole on the side. The hole is indeed on the side.
50 Cal. DUMMY AMMO drilled holes (armynavyoutdoors.com)

They have no powder and a fired primer.

The key safety feature of a dummy round is a deactivated primer. If the primer is live a squib load could happen where the bullet is lodged in the barrel. If a blank is later fired the bullet will be launched out of the barrel. That's how Brandon Lee was killed. JMO.

.50 Cal. DUMMY AMMO w/ holes

 

[jjenny]

So if explosives were being used on the set, would we expect Baldwin to go personally inspect the explosives?

 

[jjenny]

The key safety feature of a dummy round is a deactivated primer. If the primer is live a squib load could happen where the bullet is lodged in the barrel. If a blank is later fired the bullet will be launched out of the barrel. That's how Brandon Lee was killed. JMO.

.50 Cal. DUMMY AMMO w/ holes

The round that killed the cinematographer was apparently the real live round. Per AD, the casing didn't have a hole in its side. There were also four dummy rounds in the gun with holes in their sides.

 

[Nanceedroo]

I don’t understand why she left any of it on a tray during a lunch break. I’m curious if she was under the influence?

Her behavior before and after the incident was extremely careless.

 

[Dotta]

In westerns most of those guns are not even real, proper safety protocols have been followed and no one is killed.

Exactly!
Remember John Wayne?
How many Westerns did he act in? 100?
And nobody was ever killed!

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I'm all for safety practices! I just don't think the actor is the end-all be-all for safety on a movie set.

If Alec Baldwin had checked the gun before pulling the trigger this tragic death would have never happened. JMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Accident on set of "Rust" is not the armourer's first brush with a wrongful death suit

Insurance company paid out, with the proviso that this would not be brought to court.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

I'm all for safety practices! I just don't think the actor is the end-all be-all for safety on a movie set.

I agree they are not the end-all be-all safety on a movie set but they need to be part of the safety process and just accepting the gun without having it verified to be properly loaded/unloaded is not being part of the safety process. I have taken gun safety classes, have my CHL, although I don’t carry, my husband is a sporting clays enthusiast, never once in any scenario has a gun ever been handed to another person without it being loaded/unloaded in front of the other person for visual verification.

 

[mickey2942]

I agree they are not the end-all be-all safety on a movie set but they need to be part of the safety process and just accepting the gun without having it verified to be properly loaded/unloaded is not being part of the safety process. I have taken gun safety classes, have my CHL, although I don’t carry, my husband is a sporting clays enthusiast, never once in any scenario has a gun ever been handed to another person without it being loaded/unloaded in front of the other person for visual verification.

Exactly. Standard protocol for anyone who ever handles guns. No one is in a hurry. Everything is done deliberately.

Verify, double check, Verify. That is the process. The person who hands off the gun shows the person who is receiving the gun that it is empty. And the person receiving the gun sees the gun is empty, or visually watches the gun being loaded with blanks.

No one is in a hurry.

 

[jjenny]

Exactly. Standard protocol for anyone who ever handles guns. No one is in a hurry. Everything is done deliberately.

Verify, double check, Verify. That is the process. The person who hands off the gun shows the person who is receiving the gun that it is empty. And the person receiving the gun sees the gun is empty, or visually watches the gun being loaded with blanks.

No one is in a hurry.

One person who is handing the gun to the other person in the real world, doesn't have prop master, an armorer, and an assistant director.
Movies are not the real world.
And furthermore, the real world, plenty of gun "accidents' happen.
So the real people aren't always following those procedures. It'd be nice if all gun owners were really careful with their guns.

 

[PoppyBear]

From the article.
"When weapons are going to be fired on set, that responsibility falls to the prop master — and in more recent times, often an weapons specialist known as an armorer, whom we bring in as an additional precautionary measure."
A Prop Master for 'Law & Order: SVU' on What His Job Is Like (businessinsider.com)

Does this exempt the person who handles the firearm from the law? I am failing to see how, but I am not an attorney.

2020 New Mexico Statutes :: Chapter 30 - Criminal Offenses :: Article 7 - Weapons and Explosives :: Section 30-7-4 - Negligent use of a deadly weapon.

So if explosives were being used on the set, would we expect Baldwin to go personally inspect the explosives?

If he was going to ignite the explosives himself, yes. MOO only, but I find it hard to believe actors are the ones actually using explosives themselves. Again, I may be incorrect about this and I welcome corrections.