Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #3

[steeltowngirl]

But there was another round in the gun, he told a detective, one with just a casing, no cap, and which did not have the pierced hole.

^RSBM
What is he describing that has a casing, no cap? Is he describing some unusual type of ammo or is he just saying it was a live round (bullet)?

Would target ammo look like a dummy?

What about a wadcutter?
Wadcutter - Wikipedia

(Please bear with my lack of knowledge. I’m side-reading hunting and defense sites to try and educate myself on ammo, so I can follow along with the excellent posts you all are providing.)

 

[mickey2942]

I seriously can't believe I wrote, "guns, secured with SOCKS"

In the same sentence! Do we know what article that statement is from? It is so unbelievable

I just can't wrap my head around it.

The police doing the investigation, their jaws are probably dropping on the floor.

 

[branmuffin]

Something I had read or heard somewhere talked about how loading one of those weapons it was (or is?) common to leave one slot open where the hammer wouldn't be resting on live ammo. Now I assumed that was in a typical when using the gun loaded with live ammo, and not dummy rounds. So as silly as it seems (because it was only suppose to be dummy rounds) maybe she did only load 5 total rounds trying to use that practice?

I'm kind of confused why they were using dummy rounds at this particular time. If it was a rehearsal they could have used a weapon that had no rounds in it all or the rubber gun. If it was to block the set they wouldn't need ammo either. It sounds like they were setting up camera angle to film.

It's been stressed that this is a cut rate production. So if they were just setting up the camera angle to film momentarily why would they use dummy rounds instead of blanks? Using dummies would require post production to incorporate the muzzle flash and recoil especially if the camera angles were being set up to film a frontal shot of the barrel during the actual firing of the weapon. With blanks at least you'd get muzzle flash during the filming avoiding post production costs.

Terminology regarding weaponry on the set seems to be all over the map. I get the impression some of the people on the set weren't well versed in what a cold gun is. Some think it's a fake or a disabled real gun, a genuine weapon without any type of ammo or a genuine weapon with blanks. How could the assistant prop master shoot herself in the foot if she thought the weapon was safe? How did the stunt double get injured? I don't even know if the term 'misfire' is being used incorrectly relating to the stunt double's injuries. If it really was a misfire why did they continue to use the damn weapon? Did the prop assistant or the armourer think a misfire was getting shot by a real bullet instead of a dummy or a blank; just a garden variety oopsie?

HGR's lawyers sound like they work for someone else not their own client. Their explanations of what went wrong just highlights how poorly she did her job. As for the silence of her dad, Thell Reed. I don't his silence is common sense. Well maybe it is for him. I think he's in CYA mode because he provided the weapons and ammo to his daughter. Why go to a professional gun prop company when dear old dad probably has his own arsenal. MOO IMO.

 

[jjenny]

Eating Humble Pie. Me.
Not being aware of "gun socks," I made sarc post about them. Well, I should not have been such a smart-azz, because @Cool Cats (TYVM ) posted link to e-tailer selling gun socks.

Learning something new here all the time, just like @JudgeJoe said.

Gun socks are about as useful for keeping a gun secure as real sock. Gun sock is basically a soft cover for the gun. So it started off with guns being in the safe for lunch break (the story apparently told to the police) and ended off with guns being left on the cart, wearing gun socks.

 

[jjenny]

So apparently everything-guns and ammo were just left on the cart, as the crew left for lunch. I really don't think that's a proper protocol for gun security.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

So apparently everything-guns and ammo were just left on the cart, as the crew left for lunch. I really don't think that's a proper protocol for gun security.

A deferment of safety protocols because of production time schedules may be a factor here.

A young inexperienced armorer may have felt that it was okay to leave things out and then not recheck a gun before handing it to the AD or actor because they were told to hurry. JMO.

 

[jjenny]

A deferment of safety protocols because of production time schedules may be a factor here.

A young inexperienced armorer may have felt that it was okay to leave things out and then not recheck a gun before handing it to the AD or actor because they were told to hurry. JMO.

Apparently she also might have felt it was o'key to tell police that guns were locked up in a safe.

 

[jjenny]

As for rechecking the guns after lunch, it appears her lawyer might be saying she wasn't even there after lunch? It's only getting more and more confusing with all these conflicting statements.

 

[GatorFL]

I have come around to AB shouldn’t have pulled the trigger. But as far as checking the gun… If HGR didn’t identify a live round, and DH didn’t identify a live round, how would AB have known what he was seeing was a live round?

Scroll up. He's had extensive experience with guns on movie sets. Somebody posted a long list of all the movies he's acted in with guns. He was the last line of defense to prevent an accident on a movie set that had other gun issues.

 

[GatorFL]

I saw this elsewhere and thought it would fit here as rationale on why live rounds are sometimes used on movie sets. This is about the Academy Award winning film, The Deer Hunter. In the movie there is a powerful scene of Russian roulette. Apparently the main actor, Robert De Niro insisted on a live round on set. The other actor, John Cazale agreed but checked the gun multiple times to make sure the round was not in firing position.

"According to Cimino, De Niro requested a live cartridge in the revolver for the scene in which he subjects John Cazale's character to an impromptu game of Russian roulette, to heighten the intensity of the situation. Cazale agreed without protest, but obsessively rechecked the gun before each take to make sure that the live round wasn't next in the chamber."

The Deer Hunter - Wikipedia

I don't know if there was such a scene in Rust. I doubt it and it sounds like live rounds had no business being in the vicinity. But again, I thought it was interesting that there is at least one movie where a live round had an impact on the set.

Cazale was a great actor and died way too young.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

A deferment of safety protocols because of production time schedules may be a factor here.

A young inexperienced armorer may have felt that it was okay to leave things out and then not recheck a gun before handing it to the AD or actor because they were told to hurry. JMO.

But how much time would it have cost her to lock them up? (If she uses this argument, it will get her nowhere fast.)

 

[Antimony]

"Five Beans In The Wheel"

Most revolvers hold six rounds. in early guns the falling hammer strikes the firing pin, the firing pin strikes the primer on the cartridge, and BANG the gun goes off. if you are carrying bullets in all the chambers and your gun gets dropped and the hammer is struck, then maybe BANG your gun goes off with unfortunate results. other shocks or jolts could do the same thing. before modern safeties on guns were popular the easy and safe way to carry was with an empty chamber under the firing pin, no amount of force can cause it to go off. five beans in a can was a nod to safety in the old west where life was rough and you may need a loaded weapon for wolves snakes or other varmints right now, but you did not want to shoot your foot off by mistake

 

[Antimony]

Procedure for loading 5 Beans in the Wheel.

The hammer is brought to half so that the cylinder will turn freely and the loading gate opened. Then you load one, skip one, and load four more. Bring the hammer to full and gently lower it onto the empty chamber.

This simple procedure guarantees that the hammer will go down on an empty chamber. And you don’t have to turn the muzzle towards your head to see what is going on. Another advantage is that the gun can be loaded without one even having to look at the gun at all. You can see where this would be a real advantage when trying to load in the dark, or low light.

 

[jjenny]

Her lawyers claim she inspected the rounds, but didn't anticipate there were live rounds on set. So what did she inspect the rounds for? Dummies resemble live rounds, but they are not identical. Per the experienced armorers I have seen interviewed, they are concerned about checking dummies to make sure they are not live rounds.

"Hannah did everything in her power to ensure a safe set. She inspected the rounds that she loaded into the firearms that day. She always inspected the rounds. She did again right before handing the firearm to Mr. Halls, by spinning the cylinder and showing him all of the rounds and then handing him the firearm. No one could have anticipated or thought that someone would introduce live rounds into this set."

‘Rust’ Armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed Backs Up Lawyers’ “Sabotage” Claims – Deadline

 

[Gardenista]

NYT

Lawyers for ‘Rust’ Armorer Say Gun Was Briefly Unattended Before Shooting

 

[jjenny]

This article has a link to interview with her lawyers. They claim dummy rounds are similar to live rounds and some don't have holes on the side (well, the ones without the holes would presumably be the live ones, or they should have some other sign they are dummies and not live (bbs inside?). It appear their argument that because she got the rounds from a box labeled "dummy" it didn't even occur to her to check if they were live? She should have been able to rely on a "dummy" written on the box?
Attorneys defend 'Rust' set armorer Gutierrez-Reed on 'Today' | Local News | santafenewmexican.com

 

[jjenny]

NYT

Lawyers for ‘Rust’ Armorer Say Gun Was Briefly Unattended Before Shooting

First they claimed from 11 to 1, now it's briefly?

 

[jjenny]

She was supposed to have gained experienced shadowing her father. Well, the she should know how to differentiate dummies from live rounds, instead of just reading "dummy" off the box and assuming all rounds in the box are dummies, no?

"On Wednesday, Gutierrez Reed’s lawyers challenged that characterization, claiming that their client gained extensive firearm expertise while shadowing her father, an industry-renowned gun professional, on film sets from the age of 10. They say that the “Rust” tragedy resulted not from Gutierrez Reed’s inexperience, but from “a production set where they didn’t” provide adequate resources."


'Rust' armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed's reps claim 'sabotage' - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

 

[Cryptic]

I agree, but all of that is one big fat PR nightmare for anyone in this industry. They’ll all be dropped from consideration for new projects like hot potatoes, imo. Which may be the next best result if seeking justice in a non-fundable wrongful death suit. Imo

I think this is good insight to the end game regarding the director, assistant director and the armorer.

Though the director seems a step removed from the day to day production and thus the accident, he could well become to be seen as too tainted to hire.

That just leaves AB. His name appeal combined with the "actors trust armorers / prop masters from weapons to pyrotechnics" could get him additional offers (no gun parts for sure and probably by his own request), but would he accept them? Or perhaps just retire as accepting them might be seen as callous?

 

[Luna20]

Discrepancies emerge as Alec Baldwin defends ‘Rust’ production, armorer from reported on-set strife