Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #3

[jjenny]

He showed one regular smooth tip (live) and the other had crimped tip. I don’t recall if he said Blank or Dummy on the crimped one.

Crimped one is a blank, not dummy. Blank can go "boom" but it doesn't have a projectile (bullet). Dummy is inert (no gun powder inside, and a disabled primer) but it has a bullet. There is a big difference. Dummies don't go "boom."

 

[Luna20]

I’ve seen various ‘laws’ but it will be whatever Santa Fe adheres to.

On a safe production, each firearm is meticulously inspected every time it changes hands. It means every take of every angle of every scene; the same prop gun could be checked and re-checked dozens upon dozens of times in a single day. Live ammunition, without question, is never allowed on set. Aside from the actors during a scene, the firearms specialist is the only person who handles the weapons and the only person who can open them for full inspection by cast and crew.

This person is commonly referred to as the Firearms Safety Coordinator, a title I've held many times. Other productions may use the term Armorer or Key Weapons Handler. But it doesn't matter what we are called; it matters why we are there.

Opinion: Guns can be safely used on a film set -- but only if you follow the rules - CNN

 

[Luna20]

Crimped one is a blank, not dummy. Blank can go "boom" but it doesn't have a projectile (bullet). Dummy is inert (no gun powder inside, and a disabled primer) but it has a bullet. There is a big difference. Dummies don't go "boom."

Well if dummies and live look identical then she has a case.

 

[jjenny]

Well if dummies and live look identical then she has a case.

Similar but not identical. An armorer should be able to tell the difference. If they are paying attention.

 

[Luna20]

Similar but not identical. An armorer should be able to tell the difference. If they are paying attention.

Similar doesn’t pass the test in my mind because that’s her skills set, job description. She’s been trained to know the difference, it’s part of why she is hired.

 

[jjenny]

Similar doesn’t pass the test in my mind because that’s her skills set, job description. She’s been trained to know the difference, it’s part of why she is hired.

Yep, that should be the case. But it appears her argument is because she got them out of the box labeled "dummy" they should have been dummies. At least that's what her lawyers appear to be arguing for.

 

[jjenny]

I’ve seen various ‘laws’ but it will be whatever Santa Fe adheres to.

"On a safe production, each firearm is meticulously inspected every time it changes hands. It means every take of every angle of every scene; the same prop gun could be checked and re-checked dozens upon dozens of times in a single day. Live ammunition, without question, is never allowed on set. Aside from the actors during a scene, the firearms specialist is the only person who handles the weapons and the only person who can open them for full inspection by cast and crew.

This person is commonly referred to as the Firearms Safety Coordinator, a title I've held many times. Other productions may use the term Armorer or Key Weapons Handler. But it doesn't matter what we are called; it matters why we are there."

Opinion: Guns can be safely used on a film set -- but only if you follow the rules - CNN

So this expert is arguing that armorer is the only one who should be opening the gun (not the actor). It would appear HGR wasn't even at the church when Baldwin showed up. To check the gun properly for dummies, it would have to be unloaded, each round inspected, and loaded back in. I can see why productions would not want their actors to do that.

 

[Luna20]

So this expert is arguing that armorer is the only one who should be opening the gun (not the actor). It would appear HGR wasn't even at the church when Baldwin showed up. To check the gun properly for dummies, it would have to be unloaded, each round inspected, and loaded back in. I can see why productions would not want their actors to do that.

Yes but there are literally different rules within the different rules so I don’t know how that is going to apply to Rust.

 

[Luna20]

Alec Baldwin ‘Rust’ shooting: Armorer’s lawyers dismiss claims of ‘inexperience,’ question live ammo on set


“All guns on set, whether they are real, replicas, loaded or empty, are to be treated as though they are loaded with live ammunition, according to safety recommendations from the Contract Services Administration Trust Fund and International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees (IATSE).


The union also notes that "blanks can kill" and weapons should never be pointed at another person”

 

[steeltowngirl]

I don’t know what the laws are for Santa Fe on this but when I researched info pertaining to firearm safety filming I found that there are laws stating that all personnel who will be handling guns are required to go through the process of safety procedures prior to rehearsal and filming.

The armorer meets with each person to get them familiar with how the gun will be used for the scene and with what ammo. Further stating that each person who handles the gun is required to identify what’s in it before using it and handing it over to the next person. And that the golden rule applies as law “never point a gun at anyone.”

I will see if I can find it but it ultimately depends on what the laws are there.

We’ve been discussing the industry guidelines and good protocol and I think we mostly all agree that they were not followed on the Rust set. However, AFAIK, those guidelines are not actual “law” in Santa Fe or anywhere in New Mexico. It would be interesting to know if any state has such law for the film industry. Perhaps California, if anywhere.

 

[10ofRods]

Well if dummies and live look identical then she has a case.

They don't. They never do.

You can get dummies that look more like real bullets than other dummies do - but most dummies for movies are purchased from...Prop Ammunition sales companies. Those dummies go out of their way to look unreal. For example, many have a green, almost neon top; others are bright pink.

Bullets with lead in them are NEVER green or bright pink. Typically, blanks have this flattened, criss-cross pattern (which has been posted here several times).

So she has no case. IMO. And if someone ordered the most realistic possible looking dummies, like these:

45 ACP 3 DIFFERENT DUMMIES – CollectibleAmmunition.com – Your source for Collectible Ammunition

they were criminally irresponsible. Those are for collectors of military ammunition and no one who runs a prop department would choose dummies like that. It's completely negligent.

In theory, it was HGR who was in charge of ordering the ammo - but something tells me that since she was basically also the props department and therefore, part time armorer, it's highly likely that someone else in the production ordered the ammo before the filming started. This was a fast and loose production - but it will still surprise me if someone ordered dummies like those above instead of ones like these:

https://www.amazon.com/Action-Pro-Trainer-Cartridge-Ammunition/dp/B004KZ357G

And every person who handles guns should know how to look at the back end of the bullet (esp in a revolver) to see if there's primer - blanks still have primer, but dummies do not. There's an empty spot where the primer would go.

So, an armorer is supposed to know all of that. That's the whole point of having one. Blanks can look very similar to real bullets (especially when viewed from the back in a revolver, but dummies cannot look identical, because they lack primer).

The other end of the bullet, though, tells the story. It's sometimes copper-colored for a blank, but typically it is not the same shape as a real bullet. If I were the armorer, I would make sure that the two types of ammo were stored separately.

There should have been *no* live rounds on set. Period.

 

[jjenny]

If dummies are used to make the movie look realistic, I don't think one would want neon colored dummies. On westerns, people also wear gun belts, presumably with realistic looking dummies. So someone loading guns should be paying attention. But my guess is dummies on Rust were not neon colored. AD claimed dummies had holes on the side. When the gun was unloaded after the shooting, he says he saw at least four dummies with holes on the side, and one casing without the hole (presumably from a live round that fired the bullet).

 

[Luna20]

We’ve been discussing the industry guidelines and good protocol and I think we mostly all agree that they were not followed on the Rust set. However, AFAIK, those guidelines are not actual “law” in Santa Fe or anywhere in New Mexico. It would be interesting to know if any state has such law for the film industry. Perhaps California, if anywhere.

States mostly defer to union guidance for on-set gun safety


New Mexico workplace safety officials confirmed they would be looking at whether the crew followed industry standards. The agency does not routinely conduct safety inspections of sets and studios unless they receive complaints.

Instead of regulating firearm use on film and TV sets, many states leave it to the industry to follow its own guidelines. Those recommendations, issued by the Industry-Wide Labor-Management Safety Committee, call for limited use of live ammunition and detailed requirements for the handling and use of firearms of all types.

Safety meetings are to be held, actors are to keep their fingers off the triggers until they’re ready to shoot and guns should never be unattended, the guidelines state.

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/states-mostly-defer-to-union-guidance-for-on-set-gun-safety/article_37b45194-28c5-5f37-bef0-b245fe58defc.html

 

[10ofRods]

We’ve been discussing the industry guidelines and good protocol and I think we mostly all agree that they were not followed on the Rust set. However, AFAIK, those guidelines are not actual “law” in Santa Fe or anywhere in New Mexico. It would be interesting to know if any state has such law for the film industry. Perhaps California, if anywhere.

Exactly - so glad you brought this up, because it's the most interesting part to me. Most of this case will be in civil courts, not criminal ones. Sure, there will likely be negligent homicide charges brought, but the civil cases are going to be...something else.

HH's husband has hired the top personal injury/wrongful death firm in California - the lawyer who took the case has the record for the highest judgment ever in a civil suit in CA ($2.2B against SoCalEdison).

Now, I figure the lawyer may go as high as $200,000,000 in the initial complaint, both to get it into the headlines, but as a serious attempt to get that much for his clients (father and son). There are several areas of loss that are typically compensated financially in wrongful death cases in CA. It could go higher (or it could settle out of court - but something tells me that's not gonna happen).

So who will be sued? All the production companies - but there may only be one that has even remotely deep pockets (the one owned by Baldwin). Specific individuals will likely be named as well, to include Alec Baldwin but also DH and possibly HGR. Alec has discussed his net worth in the past (on the Howard Stern show - let's just say that Howard likes to taunt Alec for being...unthrifty).

It could go on for years. Out of court settlements will almost certainly occur - but I don't think Baldwin has enough umbrella insurance to cover the demand and that it's really going to cost him, personally. A lot. That's probably just now sinking in, now that AB knows who is going to handle the civil lawsuit.

Corporations (production companies) can also be brought on criminal charges, so if a bunch of witnesses mention "plinking" and/or say that many people knew there was live ammo on the set...wowsa. Could get really really interesting, legally.

California currently requires a special permit (which must be purchased from the state) for any working firearms or sharp weapons to be on set. The permit holder is criminally liable for any misuse of a prop weapon (it can be used only as a prop weapon - it cannot fire live ammo or used to target practice on set). There is only one permit holder needed for a production (they can legally loan weapons to others for the sole purpose of using the weapon as a prop). The permit is good for one year - and so chief armorers in California are fingerprinted and know that their fingerprints are sent to the Feds as part of the permit process. I think CA is the only state with this requirement (hence very few...maybe zero...Westerns filmed here in recent times).

Some CA legislator is introducing legislation to ban real guns and ammunition (including blanks) from film sets in California - and apparently there are two other states (LA and GA) with legislators saying they want the same type of legislation, after HH's death.

 

[steeltowngirl]

States mostly defer to union guidance for on-set gun safety


New Mexico workplace safety officials confirmed they would be looking at whether the crew followed industry standards. The agency does not routinely conduct safety inspections of sets and studios unless they receive complaints.

Instead of regulating firearm use on film and TV sets, many states leave it to the industry to follow its own guidelines. Those recommendations, issued by the Industry-Wide Labor-Management Safety Committee, call for limited use of live ammunition and detailed requirements for the handling and use of firearms of all types.

Safety meetings are to be held, actors are to keep their fingers off the triggers until they’re ready to shoot and guns should never be unattended, the guidelines state.
States mostly defer to union guidance for on-set gun safety

Yes. I posted the same thing on Thread 1, post 683. Workplace safety was breached on the set of Rust. Recommendations weren’t followed. But they aren’t part of New Mexico legal statute. It remains to be seen if criminal charges will be filed, but I think it’s not likely, unless the investigation determines willful intent. A civil suit for wrongful death is already being developed by attorneys for the victim’s family.

This was a tragic accident that could have been prevented if everyone from the armourer to the actor had just paid attention.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Legal experts say Alec Baldwin likely won't face murder or manslaughter charges in prop-firearm shooting that left a cinematographer dead

That's because New Mexico law has a stipulation called "excusable homicide," which means that it's not a crime to kill someone "by accident or misfortune, in doing any lawful act, by lawful means, with usual and ordinary caution and without any unlawful intent."

Legal experts say Alec Baldwin likely won't face murder or manslaughter charges in prop-firearm shooting that left a cinematographer dead

2011 New Mexico Statutes :: Chapter 30: Criminal Offenses :: Article 2: Homicide, 30-2-1 through 30-2-9 :: Section 30-2-5: Excusable homicide.

 

[steeltowngirl]

And the other viewpoint on criminal charges:

Carmack-Altwies said in a separate interview with Almaguer that New Mexico does not have a negligent homicide charge and that an involuntary manslaughter charge would be used instead.

Involuntary manslaughter, in this case, occurs when a person or persons is engaging in a lawful act but unintentionally kills someone by being negligent or not exercising due care. Involuntary manslaughter is a fourth-degree felony and carries a sentence of up to 18 months in prison and probation.

"We have started researching and started looking into potential charges," Carmack-Altwies said, "not because we are looking at charging someone but because that's what we have to do as prosecutors."

This research is important because criminal cases are held to a higher standard than civil cases and the district attorney will need to be confident that she can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that individuals on set were reckless, Kaplan said.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/28/bal...ghter-charges-could-be-filed-lawyers-say.html

 

[Luna20]

Yes. I posted the same thing on Thread 1, post 683. Workplace safety was breached on the set of Rust. Recommendations weren’t followed. But they aren’t part of New Mexico legal statute. It remains to be seen if criminal charges will be filed, but I think it’s not likely, unless the investigation determines willful intent. A civil suit for wrongful death is already being developed by attorneys for the victim’s family.

This was a tragic accident that could have been prevented if everyone from the armourer to the actor had just paid attention.

Its really sad and it makes it worse when it could have been prevented.

Anyone know what happened on the Harrison Ford film? Cupac died, they are saying natural causes…he’s only in his 50’s.

 

[katydid23]

Possibly - although everyone involved has said it was a technical rehearsal for a live shoot later that day. If they did want flash and smoke, they had better have made sure that Alec Baldwin didn't fire at the cinematographer in any case. She was about 6-7 feet away from him. They needed to operate the camera remotely (and they were down to just one camera, as the assistant cinematographer had walked off the set).

Actually, according to recent reports, she was only 2 feet away from the muzzle. It shocked me to hear that.
'Rust' shooting victim Halyna Hutchins was just 2 feet away from the gun when Alec Baldwin pulled the trigger

'Rust' shooting victim Halyna Hutchins was just 2 feet away from the gun when Alec Baldwin pulled the trigger

 

[katydid23]

Rust (upcoming film) - Wikipedia

In May 2020, it was announced that Alec Baldwin would produce and star in Rust, a Western based on a story he created with writer and director Joel Souza.[4] Baldwin told The Hollywood Reporter that he was elated to work with Souza after missing the opportunity to star in Crown Vic (2019). He compared the screenplay to the film Unforgiven (1992), and said it was inspired by a true story. When asked about his gun slinging and horse riding skills, he said: "They're always at the ready. I'm an actor of the old school. So if you read my resume – my motorcycle riding, my French, juggling, my horseback riding, my gunplay – is all right at my fingertips at all times."[6]