Alleged alcohol abuse Revisit w/new 2010.11.12 Dateline info

[Donjeta]

I was struck by something Kaine said this morning:
"... it’s not the person that everybody thought it was. It’s a completely different person, leading a completely separate life ... I think, personally, the alcoholism is the tip of the iceberg. That’s the start, not the finish. And that’s what I’m concerned about."
http://www.koinlocal6.com/news/loca...had-an-accomplice/UqWuD4ezC0e1_mFyo7wuaA.cspx

Am I reading too much into this? What does he mean by a "completely separate life" where "alcoholism is the tip of the iceberg"? Anyone care to offer opinions on that?

For starters we have heard about the MFH, some sexting, the venting to friends about things he wasn't told about, and if she did something to Kyron that's one more thing.

 

[PortlandMama]

I suppose that you can rationalize passing out as "exhausted and extremely sleepy" if the person tends to be unconscious mostly at nighttime when you're sleepy yourself. Up to a point, anyway. Not so much if they drink themselves to oblivion during the day.

In which case, it's hard to see how he arrived at the conclusion months later that what seemed like exhaustion at the time was definitively "from drink" as stated in the affadavit. He must have known it was from drink at the time, no? Otherwise, his real evidence (AFAIK) would revert to his friends telling him recently that their alcohol levels would plummet when he and Terri came to visit. You would surely then suspect drinking to the point of unconsciousness, but to be so certain that you would swear to it in an affadavit? :waitasec:

 

[pufnstuf]

I think Kaine's behavior is part pride, part denial and enabling.

Denial and enabling in that spouses of alcoholics frequently have the mistaken belief that if one just sticks around a little longer, just helps a little more, the situation will improve...

But also pride. How many men would admit to the first wife that the marriage to the second wife (for whom he left the first wife) is falling apart, that the second wife is a drunk? To open up to the first wife is to admit failure in the second marriage, and most men (and women) don't want to discuss this with the previous spouse until the marriage is beyond the point of reconciliation.

My opinion.

 

[Billylee]

Thought I'd try to post the actual wording in the affidavit Kaine filed where he refers to her drinking. (Hope this works, I hate pdf files!)View attachment 12359


ETA: I think I got it right this time. Well, almost read, them right to left. LOL

 

[Donjeta]

In which case, it's hard to see how he arrived at the conclusion months later that what seemed like exhaustion at the time was definitively "from drink" as stated in the affadavit. He must have known it was from drink at the time, no? Otherwise, his real evidence (AFAIK) would revert to his friends telling him recently that their alcohol levels would plummet when he and Terri came to visit. You would surely then suspect drinking to the point of unconsciousness, but to be so certain that you would swear to it in an affadavit? :waitasec:

The way it makes most sense to me is, he probably had an idea that she drank alcohol, sometimes to excess, but wasn't ready to admit it was alcoholism.

 

[Shadowboy]

For starters we have heard about the MFH, some sexting, the venting to friends about things he wasn't told about, and if she did something to Kyron that's one more thing.

Maybe. But the MFH isn't "new" info. Neither is the venting or sexting. And KH was -- at the time -- talking about need to "know more." For brevity, I cut a section of his answer. Here's what I cut out of the quote above.

"And we’re entitled to know more. We need to know more. And we’re going to ask the questions when the abatement period’s over and if we’re still in court going through hearings, you’re darn right we’re going to find out everything possible about what was going on."

 

[BeanE]

Kaine: The alcohol part was hidden until other people brought information forward, and even then it was still hard to put the pieces together until there was a couple more pieces provided that put it in focus.

http://www.kgw.com/video?id=108218104&sec=547757


This looks to me that his firsthand declarative statements in his affidavit are misleading. I think it is reasonable to believe that such declarative statements mean that a person making them observed these things, and knew these things as fact, from their own personal experience.

Now reading the statement above, it tells me that that is not the case at all. Rather, the alleged alcohol abuse stories were guesses, contrived really, cobbled together from bits and pieces of things multiple people at different times.

Then on top of that, we have Desiree stating this morning that she saw "no signs", and "no evidence" of any alcohol abuse.

I'm not even going to get into the whys and wherefore, and speculate on how this situation came to be.

No character judgements from me.

Right now, I just would like Kaine and Desiree each to tell LE the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, if either of them have not already done so.

I can't help but also wish the two of them would sit down together, for a long time, several times probably, and without animosity, talk all this through. Try to reach a state in which they have less conflict. Life is easier that way, and their lives are very hard, and going to stay hard, for a long, long time.

I wish them both as much peace as they can manage to find.

 

[cluciano63]

I think it is very possible that Terri did the communicating between Kaine and Desiree. Clearly, she felt comfortable calling Desiree, even indicating that she wanted Kyron to move down to Medford. If she would say this to Desiree, I would not be surprised if she made her feelings known to Kaine as well. I wonder if it was an on-going issue between them. Maybe when Terri was drunk, she would say things about Kyron being extra work for her, whatever. I can't imagine she could harbor what Desiree is calling hatred toward Kyron, and Kaine had absolutely no clue.

 

[Lucid]

Maybe Kaine just isn't all that observant to find alcohol around the house. I bet I could hide some that my husband would never know about. He doesn't really go into the cabinets, for instance. My husband doesn't cook or do the dishes, so why would he? After a long day at work, my husband comes home and spends much of the night on the couch. I don't think that's very uncommon, and wouldn't be surprised if Kaine just never really discovered alcohol in the house because he would have little reason to go rummaging through things.

As to the symptoms he claims she showed, I tend to think he just didn't really think much of them. He says that now, in hindsight, he sees it. But with all the time she spent at the gym, plus raising a toddler, he might have simply thought she was tired or something. She's not exactly young or in the best shape. Despite alleged slurring and passing out, he may not have fully noticed until looking back now.

I know somebody very well, even lived with him for a time, and had no idea he had been using drugs for a full year, until I walked in on him in the bathroom once. He hid it well, he wasn't the moody sort. His eyes never looked unfocused or anything. I never would have guessed.

I just don't think it is as uncommon as it might seem. Though some of his statements from today don't really match up, he DID say he was nervous at being live, and perhaps stumbled over his words and thoughts?

Maybe when Terri was drunk, she would say things about Kyron being extra work for her, whatever. I can't imagine she could harbor what Desiree is calling hatred toward Kyron, and Kaine had absolutely no clue.

snipped...

I have trouble with this one, too. But maybe she was just very good at hiding things. He does call her a master manipulator... and we see proof that she put on a show of being a good mom to Kyron, just by looking at such things as his science fair project.

All JMO

 

[Billylee]

Thought I'd try to post the actual wording in the affidavit Kaine filed where he refers to her drinking. (Hope this works, I hate pdf files!)View attachment 12359


ETA: I think I got it right this time. Well, almost read, them right to left. LOL

I just love quoting myself. LOL just want to keep my comment with the affidavit thumbnails.


Kaine's affidavit says clearly, that this alcohol abuse has been going since BabyK's birth. It also says that he witnessed the drunken behavior of Terri (i.e., staggering, slurred speech, etc.) several nights a week. (Several to me, indicates one or two nights a week.) In the same paragraph (6) he goes on to say that Terri spent most nights sleeping on the couch passed out drunk.


I'm not sure why everything in this case has to be so confusing. That is a legal document. Which was it? Several nights a week? Every night of the week? Then today at the presser, he seems to be saying he wasn't even aware of it while it was going on, and yet in this affidavit he's saying he even tried to somewhat intervene.

A judge is going to want answers to all these questions and I hope he gets to the bottom of this whole mess. I feel sorry for all the children in this case. IMO parental responsibility seems to have been lacking just about everywhere.

The elephant in this room may just turn out to be a herd.



(Darn I thought the thumbnails would follow!)

 

[BeanE]

Well now I'm watching another video, and it just gets more confounding.

In this one, addressing Desiree saying that he didn't tell her about the info in the affidavit, he says the info in the affidavit is new info to him as well.

That just plain makes no sense at all.

But... he also says in this one that the alcoholism is something he had some concerns about.

Which tells he indeed knew about it, and didn't tell Desiree about it.

And indeed he says he decided on the alcohol stuff as they were putting together the document.

He talked to some people who knew alcoholics and came up with this.

That makes me extremely uncomfortable.

I just don't know what's going on here.



On the custody, it was last fall, August/September timeframe. Kyron had been with Desi for the first half of the summer. When he came back, in the first few weeks, he missed his mom.

He and Desi talked about it and they both came to the same conclusions, and Desi never pressed any further.

But Desiree said she asked several times, and he said it was not an option several times, and it was a point of contention between them.

And later after Kyron spent the next 6 or 7 weeks with Kaine, and then it was time for him to go visit Desiree, he said he didn't want to go see his mom.

At the time:

"There was an incident between Kyron and Terri... where they had a big disagreement"

when he was out on a business trip.

That was the only custody discussion.


What a mess. Mess mess mess.

 

[Donjeta]

I think the problem with Kaine's statements is that he's been in a kind of a double bind all along because he's had so many conflicting interests. Before Kyron went missing it was probably in his interests to try and color things pretty because he wanted to think things would be all right and because another divorce would be messy and because he wanted to keep the custody of Kyron and later the baby and because it is humiliating for many people to discuss the problems with your current spouse with the ex you left for the new one.

Then after Kyron disappeared at first he seemed to want to protect Terri, their family and their privacy which led to silence at first and then comments that minimized the problems in their homelife.

Then it became clear to him that Terri had something to do with it and it was not in his interests to protect her from suspicion anymore, they wanted the information out. But he still wasn't quite ready to spill his guts because he may still have wanted to keep some of the ugly truth from Desiree and the public because it might lead to a blame game about his role in enabling whatever Terri did.

Then Terri asked for visitation and suddenly he needed to get the ugly truth out there so she wouldn't get access to their child.

But at this point it's getting kinda tricky to say anything without contradicting what you said previously. Hopefully he's been quite straight with LE from the start so there won't be problems with his testimony in an eventual trial.

 

[grandmaj]

In Kaine's motion, he states:

Pg. 2-Line item # 18-24..line item # 18,19,20..(papaphrase)..Historical problems with alcohol abuse, which have impaired her functionings since K's birth.

however, line Item # 21.22.."It was Common for Respondent to be visibly impaired from alcohol"

Again this does not say she coped with this problem all of the time.

In line # 21.22 "It was Common for Respondent to be visibly impaired from alcholol, i.e. slurring speech, staggering gait, etc. several nights a week. "


All one thought and sentence.

Kaine has never alluded to:

"But Kaine insists that was the way Terri coped all the time"

 

[stmarysmead]

I think it is very possible that Terri did the communicating between Kaine and Desiree. Clearly, she felt comfortable calling Desiree, even indicating that she wanted Kyron to move down to Medford. If she would say this to Desiree, I would not be surprised if she made her feelings known to Kaine as well. I wonder if it was an on-going issue between them. Maybe when Terri was drunk, she would say things about Kyron being extra work for her, whatever. I can't imagine she could harbor what Desiree is calling hatred toward Kyron, and Kaine had absolutely no clue.

The hatred was spewed in emails...presumably NOT to Kaine or Desiree. Kaine also had no clue she wanted him dead...and was working to achieve that goal. Why is it so impossible to believbe a woman who would hire a killer..would hate a child? Or that a man who had no clue his own life was in danger...could see the danger to his son.

Terri was cunning. Shrewd. Hiring killers. Spewing hatred at a little guy who probably hugged her every night. Dear God, that poor hated child!

Or is Terri the victim of lies from half the population of Oregon?


This is what Kaine means that Terri is a pro at deception. Want to bet that their marriage was still "viable" in the bedroom? This is where Terri exerts her power...maintains control...till she wants change. But change, as in her former marriages, is on her terms. Now you have my son...now you don't...but ha! Ha! you still PAY! Forever!

Kaine did not also know she wanted her own son kicked out of the house. When he was away...Terri had lots of plans to achieve freedom. Get rid of J...get rid of Kaine...hey, WAIT... he brings in money...get rid of Kyron instead!

Remember the "Okay, I love you" email to Kaine when he left...? Terri was very good at saying what needed to be said to keep Terri fed, warm, dry, driving sports cars with vanity plates, and taken on fancy vacations.

Whatever do we know that makes it just impossible to believe she despised Kyron? LE has her emails. Her phony Facebook propaganda will NOT outweigh her words.

 

[cluciano63]

The hatred was spewed in emails...presumably NOT to Kaine or Desiree. Kaine also had no clue she wanted him dead...and was working to achieve that goal. Why is it so impossible to believbe a woman who would hire a killer..would hate a child? Or that a man who had no clue his own life was in danger...could see the danger to his son.

Terri was cunning. Shrewd. Hiring killers. Spewing hatred at a little guy who probably hugged her every night. Dear God, that poor hated child!

Or is Terri the victim of lies from half the population of Oregon?


This is what Kaine means that Terri is a pro at deception. Want to bet that their marriage was still "viable" in the bedroom? This is where Terri exerts her power...maintains control...till she wants change. But change, as in her former marriages, is on her terms. Now you have my son...now you don't...but ha! Ha! you still PAY! Forever!

Kaine did not also know she wanted her own son kicked out of the house. When he was away...Terri had lots of plans to achieve freedom. Get rid of J...get rid of Kaine...hey, WAIT... he brings in money...get rid of Kyron instead!

Remember the "Okay, I love you" email to Kaine when he left...? Terri was very good at saying what needed to be said to keep Terri fed, warm, dry, driving sports cars with vanity plates, and taken on fancy vacations.

Whatever do we know that makes it just impossible to believe she despised Kyron? LE has her emails. Her phony Facebook propaganda will NOT outweigh her words.

I am not saying I find it impossible to believe that Terri hates/hated Kyron. But I do find it eyebrow-raising, at least, that Kaine did not have a clue. It is very easy to label Terri with every kind of symptom and disorder now, to explain why he did not know anything.

 

[stmarysmead]

Parsing words will not mitigate a 40 year old woman's hatred of a 7 year old child.

Putting the focus on what Kaine said or didn't say is fine for a discussion Board...but it won't help Terri in regard to the criminal case. I am more confident than ever tonight that the noose is tightening. And that there is MORE, much more about Terri.

I really do not care of she was drunk only every third Wednesday....and Kaine is not as precise in telling us exactly how often or how drunk Terri was. Is there some mitigation in this for Terri ? The hateful emails were SHOWN to Kaine and Desiree...they did not originate with them. They cannot be discredited by discrediting Kaine.

Trying to chip away at Kaine's credibility because he wasn't absolutely precise for us Internet Sleuthers means NOTHING to the criminal case. Terri rests no easier because Kaine wasn't clear on how much or often she drank...or because, in his misguided love for her...he protected her and their privacy in the early days.

This "confusion" does NOT impact the criminal case. Terri has no where to hide from her words, lies, and sorry lifestyle.

 

[stmarysmead]

I am not saying I find it impossible to believe that Terri hates/hated Kyron. But I do find it eyebrow-raising, at least, that Kaine did not have a clue. It is very easy to label Terri with every kind of symptom and disorder now, to explain why he did not know anything.

Anyone who has loved an alcoholic at any time in their life...understands the denial. You live in a state of constant hope for change...constant belief that tomorrow will be better. You embrace the lies... as consolation...as a way to get through YOUR day.

 

[grandmaj]

I am not saying I find it impossible to believe that Terri hates/hated Kyron. But I do find it eyebrow-raising, at least, that Kaine did not have a clue. It is very easy to label Terri with every kind of symptom and disorder now, to explain why he did not know anything.

What if she did most of it behind Kaine's back. As Kaine says she is a master at her game. I think the glimpses that he saw were her being to rigid in discipline. And I don't doubt that Kyron was stuck in the middle at these times between Terri demanding that Kaine back her up, versus Kaine feeling she was being too strict.

This and this alone could drive someone who is already emotionally disturbed over the edge. MOO

I think Terri wanted to be adored 24 hours a day and I don't see Kaine as being the prince adorer.

I do feel the mental health evaluation possibility is what made Terri withdraw the motion for visitation.

Once that was ordered by a judge there was no way out. And Houze knows he cannot let that happen IMO.

 

[Donjeta]

I am not saying I find it impossible to believe that Terri hates/hated Kyron. But I do find it eyebrow-raising, at least, that Kaine did not have a clue. It is very easy to label Terri with every kind of symptom and disorder now, to explain why he did not know anything.

I think he had a clue that some thing was wrong but he may not have been ready or willing to name whatever was going on as hatred. There have been many people saying she was an attentive parent so it's obvious she can put her good foot forward when she wants to and wasn't hateful to the children all the time.

But he's named a number of clues he used to have in his interviews. There was Kyron asking to go live with his mom, there were the problems with Terri's excessive discipline, whatever that means, there was Terri sending her own son away, there were the altercations she couldn't cope with when Kaine was away on business trips and she was alone with the children, the marital problems they were supposed to have been dealing with, her PPD etc.

Maybe it didn't feel life threatening at the time but he had plenty of clues IMO. He may have chosen to ignore some of them.

 

[cluciano63]

We are not supposed to get personal here, but I did in fact lose my sister to alcoholism, so I am well aware of all of the games, hiding, etc...and denial. But she was not in charge of any little children for even a moment of a day and she did not drive, so she was never a danger to anyone but herself. And she paid the price.

In this enlightened age, it is not supposed to be "okay" for children to have to live with an alcoholic if there are other options. I think Kaine kept Kyron from having a safer, happier home with his Mom, or at least trying it out as a possibility, for his own reasons. Partly due to denial, perhaps, but not totally.