Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #42

[Fuskier]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-suggest-suicide/story-e6freoof-1226537209832
Kate Kyriacou, The Courier-Mail, December 15, 2012 12:00AM.
Peter Davis, Defense lawyer for the accused killer, told the court there was now "as good, if not a better, case for suicide of Mrs Baden-Clay as there is for murder".
That was disputed by Prosecutor Danny Boyle, who said there was bruising on the chest wall that suggested Mrs Baden-Clay could have been suffocated or strangled.

 

[Sleuthis-maximus]

I believe he looked chubbier the day Allison was reported missing and over the following weeks he did loose weight IMO.

Yeh, the pie face/funernal/business as usual/arrest shots range from really sharp to soft features? Strange.

 

[Oz Jen]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-suggest-suicide/story-e6freoof-1226537209832
Kate Kyriacou, The Courier-Mail, December 15, 2012 12:00AM.
Peter Davis, Defense lawyer for the accused killer, told the court there was now "as good, if not a better, case for suicide of Mrs Baden-Clay as there is for murder".
That was disputed by Prosecutor Danny Boyle, who said there was bruising on the chest wall that suggested Mrs Baden-Clay could have been suffocated or strangled.

Thanks so much for reposting this, Fuskier. It pinpoints one of the many things that confuse me. Perhaps Ali can help clarify a legal aspect: As Defense lawyer Peter Davis argued that there was now "as good, if not a better, case for suicide of Mrs Baden-Clay as there is for murder", surely this means GBC has been going down this path from the beginning?

If GBC has stuck to a suicide story from the start with his defense team, I don't see how he can change to anything like manslaughter or even 'just' disposing of Allison's body but not murdering her.

I am under the impression that if a suspect changes their story (other than to suddenly plead guilty to the initial charge) to their defense lawyer, and therefore that lawyer no longer believes his client, that lawyer would then remove themselves from the case and a new defense team would need to be engaged?

Do Peter Davis' words at the hearing therefore mean the suicide story is how the defense will play this?

Ali, I'm lost in understanding how this works, so if you have time, would you kindly clarify? Thanks in advance. All this is IMOO.

 

[alioop]

Ozjen at the second bail hearing Peter Davis for the defence made it very clear to the judge that the "suicide theory" was as a result of what was contained in the prosecutions evidence that was given to the defence and not from GBC. He agreed when questioned by the judge that GBC did not think Allison was suicidal when she went missing.

So it is not a change of story by GBC but a new strategy based on the prosecutions evidence. I think it will be continued at the committal in the cross examination. If committed for trial, we don't know what the strategy will be then, the defence may not yet either. One step at a time for them.

The ethics of lawyers in acting for a client who has admitted guilt, are that they still represent them but can't suggest alternatives for what happened. So they can't blame someone else for eg. The first thing GBC's lawyers would have said to GBC is if you killed her, don't tell me you did. So of course his lawyers will have their own opinions of whether he killed Allison but he won't have admitted it to them. That then keeps more options open in the running of his defence and down the track different options can be explored such as changing pleas and versions of events. Of course changing his version of events will affect credibility before a jury and they then have to decide what they believe is the true version of events.

 

[Liadan]

Extract from Allison's diary. What is meant by ""My husband for booking in until 2pm..."?
So there was the occasional tenderness which somehow makes me a little settled that she had a little happiness in her short life. Even when the motives and what was in store only a short time away.

However, her life had been more positive earlier that year.
"Today I am grateful for ... the loving text I just received from my husband," she wrote.
"My tireless parents and their tireless, unconditional love.
"My ballet friends and the lovely breakfast I had this morning.
"My husband for booking in until 2pm so I could enjoy my morning and for making dinner."








Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...n-badenclay-20121217-2biqi.html#ixzz2M5brQ1KX

I would say its a late check out at a hotel.Instead of normal check out at 10am you pay a bit extra to stay til 2pm. So he gave Allison the night off at a hotel GBC cooked dinner and she probably went out with her girlfriends.

 

[Oz Jen]

Ozjen at the second bail hearing Peter Davis for the defence made it very clear to the judge that the "suicide theory" was as a result of what was contained in the prosecutions evidence that was given to the defence and not from GBC. He agreed when questioned by the judge that GBC did not think Allison was suicidal when she went missing.

So it is not a change of story by GBC but a new strategy based on the prosecutions evidence. I think it will be continued at the committal in the cross examination. If committed for trial, we don't know what the strategy will be then, the defence may not yet either. One step at a time for them.

The ethics of lawyers in acting for a client who has admitted guilt, are that they still represent them but can't suggest alternatives for what happened. So they can't blame someone else for eg. The first thing GBC's lawyers would have said to GBC is if you killed her, don't tell me you did. So of course his lawyers will have their own opinions of whether he killed Allison but he won't have admitted it to them. That then keeps more options open in the running of his defence and down the track different options can be explored such as changing pleas and versions of events. Of course changing his version of events will affect credibility before a jury and they then have to decide what they believe is the true version of events.

Thank you so much for explaining this, Alioop! Your knowledge and expertise are greatly appreciated. Your patience and time, even more so!

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Quote from previous thread: "Redlight, I wonder if you know whether Allison and GBC were regular church goers, as in every weekend?
I know they attended the local church, but I'm just wondering how much a part of their lives this might have been?
And, same question again for Nigelaine, please?

I'm just thinking about the offers of surety for bail, and the special church service put on by the local church while Allison was missing, that GBC didn't attend.

Thanks. (no probs if you cant answer )"


Obsessor, I am sorry that it has taken me so long to answer your question - I have been away and have only just caught back up now. But even so, I am a bit useless to you in this department, because I am not a church goer, so I don't know if A & G attended regularly or just occasionally. Sorry!

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

In the midst of all our enthusiasm to find the truth in this terrible situation we need to remember that the police don't always get it right!
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/policeman-admits-aboriginal-man-accused-of-assault-did-not-throw-punch/story-e6frg6nf-1226582776462

But neither does MSM! :what:
IMO

 

[BreakingNews]

Ozjen at the second bail hearing Peter Davis for the defence made it very clear to the judge that the "suicide theory" was as a result of what was contained in the prosecutions evidence that was given to the defence and not from GBC. He agreed when questioned by the judge that GBC did not think Allison was suicidal when she went missing.

So it is not a change of story by GBC but a new strategy based on the prosecutions evidence. I think it will be continued at the committal in the cross examination. If committed for trial, we don't know what the strategy will be then, the defence may not yet either. One step at a time for them.

The ethics of lawyers in acting for a client who has admitted guilt, are that they still represent them but can't suggest alternatives for what happened. So they can't blame someone else for eg. The first thing GBC's lawyers would have said to GBC is if you killed her, don't tell me you did. So of course his lawyers will have their own opinions of whether he killed Allison but he won't have admitted it to them. That then keeps more options open in the running of his defence and down the track different options can be explored such as changing pleas and versions of events. Of course changing his version of events will affect credibility before a jury and they then have to decide what they believe is the true version of events.

Thanks for your insights, Allioop. I can appreciate the ethics, but, wow. To me this is where the legal system fails us all. It amazes me that at no stage a lawyer asks his/her client if she/he is guilty. Where is the ethics in representing someone who the lawyer 'believes' is guilty and they get off??? How do these professionals sleep at nights?

 

[Maigret]

Thanks for your insights, Allioop. I can appreciate the ethics, but, wow. To me this is where the legal system fails us all. It amazes me that at no stage a lawyer asks his/her client if she/he is guilty. Where is the ethics in representing someone who the lawyer 'believes' is guilty and they get off??? How do these professionals sleep at nights?

Seems wrong doesn't it when we think we are sure the person is guilty - but sometimes all the evidence points one way but the person is innocent ( not saying that is true in this case) so we must have a fair and equal system in place to ensure that everyone gets a fair trial - I really admire lawyers who represent their clients fairly - even though it must seem so obvious they are guilty

 

[they'll get you]

Slightly OT but where is the justice in this? Fair trial? How about Jill's family?

JILL Meagher's alleged killer is getting "Rolls-Royce" taxpayer-funded legal representation

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national-new...er/story-fncynjr2-1226587207584#ixzz2MBMkTNng

 

[they'll get you]

What normal person goes to a doctor let alone three, to verify scratches? If I verified every scratch, graze, bruise, burn or cut I think I would need to go every day of the week! And for what reason except to prove that the injuries are a certain type?! "Morning doc, just wondering if you could verify that these scratches on my face are from my razor?" Ummmmm really? I am stunned into speechlessness when trying to come up with a logical reason for ANYONE wanting verification of a wound unless they were trying to establish a "wound alibi" because they needed an acceptable excuse for claw like scratches on their face the day after their wife went missing....

Narcissistic personality disorder


Narcissistic personality disorder is a condition in which people have an excessive sense of self-importance, an extreme preoccupation with themselves, and lack of empathy for others.

He was obsessed with proving himself right and more important than the situation at hand. He would have thought he could influence the doctors in believing his lies. A Narcissist believes he's is more intelligent than others, even a medical doctor seeing his obvious injuries. (Doc Watson may know what I'm getting at) This is how they get through life.....bullying.

 

[alioop]

Thanks for your insights, Allioop. I can appreciate the ethics, but, wow. To me this is where the legal system fails us all. It amazes me that at no stage a lawyer asks his/her client if she/he is guilty. Where is the ethics in representing someone who the lawyer 'believes' is guilty and they get off??? How do these professionals sleep at nights?

That is exactly why I couldn't practice as a criminal lawyer. I like my sleep!

 

[Happygolucky]

I would say its a late check out at a hotel.Instead of normal check out at 10am you pay a bit extra to stay til 2pm. So he gave Allison the night off at a hotel GBC cooked dinner and she probably went out with her girlfriends.

Does anyone know whether there is a more detailed version of Alison's diary that was submitted with affidavits. We seem to have selective bits which largely dwell on the negative aspects of Alisons life. However there are glimpses of life that are not all bad.

 

[they'll get you]

Does anyone know whether there is a more detailed version of Alison's diary that was submitted with affidavits. We seem to have selective bits which largely dwell on the negative aspects of Alisons life. However there are glimpses of life that are not all bad.

I agree, I read the diary, but it became more negative over time, her sadness became more intense. (how could you blame her) I noticed her writing actually changed over time as well.


"My sister-in-law for all she has done for me in the past . . . her support while I was sick."

Which sister-in-law was she writing about? OW or her brother's wife and I would love to know why Allison was sick, what was she suffering and how long ago?

Bring on the committal lease:


- See more at: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...y-e6freoof-1226537242449#sthash.3PhiyjHh.dpuf

 

[alioop]

I found it so hard to read Allison's diary in the MSM. Its about as personal as you can get. Her family must not be impressed with it being published.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

I agree, I read the diary, but it became more negative over time, her sadness became more intense. (how could you blame her) I noticed her writing actually changed over time as well.


"My sister-in-law for all she has done for me in the past . . . her support while I was sick."

Which sister-in-law was she writing about? OW or her brother's wife and I would love to know why Allison was sick, what was she suffering and how long ago?

Bring on the committal lease:


- See more at: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...y-e6freoof-1226537242449#sthash.3PhiyjHh.dpuf

ABC suffered from post-natal depression after her third child. Whether this is what she was referring to in her diary or not though, I don't know.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...re-supreme-court/story-e6freoof-1226536987434

"...was still taking Zoloft, originally prescribed for post-natal depression".

 

[Liadan]

As Alioops says - Allison's diary is intensely personal and I have to agree -if we do respect Allison - then we would at the very least let this aspect rest. Allison would have been horrified to know that her most coveted feelings were available and media worthy. She was shy and reserved and dedicated to her family and I do believe that she would be incredibly embarrassed to know her musings and intimate feelings were already in the mainstream media. <modsnip>. What she said in her diary is important, undoubtedly; but let us respect her privacy - surely the fact that she has been wronged does not require us to know how her most private thoughts about her situation. There is so much more to this woman than her diary, she was murdered and her justice does not need us to delve into her most intimate thoughts.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

As Alioops says - Allison's diary is intensely personal and I have to agree -if we do respect Allison - then we would at the very least let this aspect rest. Allison would have been horrified to know that her most coveted feelings were available and media worthy. She was shy and reserved and dedicated to her family and I do believe that she would be incredibly embarrassed to know her musings and intimate feelings were already in the mainstream media. <modsnip> What she said in her diary is important, undoubtedly; but let us respect her privacy - surely the fact that she has been wronged does not require us to know how her most private thoughts about her situation. There is so much more to this woman than her diary, she was murdered and her justice does not need us to delve into her most intimate thoughts.

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment, but the horse is already out the gate unfortunately.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Can anyone help me please with a link that showed a photograph of a huge pile of documents that the CM purchased the evening of the second bail hearing? I can't seem to find it anywhere now. It was on the CM online.