Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL* #2

[Nova]

Couldn't you just wash them?

You could. You could also wear your boyfriend's underwear.

But she wanted more than one pair of her own underwear. What's so suspicious about that?

<mod snip>

 

[sherlockh]

AK has no idea what legal expenses may lie ahead. I don't blame her for banking her money until the legal process is finally exhausted.

But since we're asking questions about fairness: How is it ok that the Perugia police department isn't paying at least half of the damages? The idea that Lumumba was involved was the creation and insistence of PLE.

The court has ruled and there is no excuse for not paying. Besides it is not smart to show no respect for the courts rulings at the start of your own appeal.

 

[Harmony 2]

I don't see how RS DNA could have been "accidentally" put there on the bra clasp. Wouldn't it make more sense that if the sample was contaminated, that it would be contaminated with Amanda's DNA since Amanda's DNA would be more prevalent throughout the apartment b/c that is where she lived? How come the innocence-believers are not questioning why it wasn't AMANDA's DNA which was accidentally transferred to the bra clasp? That makes much more sense than it being RS when he did not live in the apartment and how would his DNA magically arrive at that very precise point.

However, I am still concerned with why there are not MORE traces of RS and Amanda in Meredith's bedroom if they were both involved in the killing at the time it was taking place. How come there are not bloody footprints/handprints of them in there?

Regarding the bra clasp:

pg 142
http://knoxdnareport.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/translation-of-the-conti-vecchiotti-report2.pdf

Considering the mixture of several male contributors are present besides Raffaele Sollecito, if their DNA arrived in a way that is unrelated to the crime, how can one make the claim that Raffaele's DNA arrived differently?

Contamination is a crucial issue in the analysis and interpretation of trace DNA. Contaminant DNA may appear as either the major or minor sample within a mixture or, alternatively, may overwhelm the target DNA completely. From a theoretical perspective, any DNA deposit that is not immediately relevant to the crime being investigated can be viewed as contamination. In this light, gross or sporadic contamination may appear at any point: (1) before the crime has been committed; (2) in the interval between the crime and securing the crime scene; (3) during the investigation of the scene; and/or (4) within the laboratory.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3012025/

ETA: Btw, IIRC the dna of Meredith's other roommates was not taken but I might be mistaken..

 

[aa9511]

There is a long discussion about DNA analysis on one of the threads. One or two of the posters seem to know a lot about it ... about how many loci were checked, how many analyses iterations were generated using the newer machine, and so on.

The argument seems to be that footprints, which were identified with luminal and which contained DNA (not necessarily blood), might have been created with grapefruit juice. I'm looking forward to the day that the grapefruit argument is presented in a US courtroom. I'd like to see how it goes over. It didn't go over all that well in Italy the first time around, but the annulled appeal was another story.

I think the situation is that Knox's skin cell DNA was found in Meredith's blood in Filomina's bedroom. There's a second and third sample, from Knox's bedroom and the hallway, one of which contained only Meredith's blood in a footprint that has been attributed to Knox. The argument seems to be that it's not Meredith's blood - it's grapefruit juice that someone tracked all over the flat - barefoot. It might have been Knox that tracked the grapefruit juice from bathroom to the bedroom door to Filomina's bedroom.

Maybe someone can correct me if I have misunderstood the defense argument.

Thanks Otto. I also read somewhere that they were trying to say it was bleach from the cleaning product they had used to clean the floor of the apartment (general use).

I am not as versed in this trial as you all are. Have not read the reports, etc.. Can you please tell me why there are no RS or Amanda footprints in Meredith's bedroom? Do you think they cleaned them off? But I haven't read anywhere that there were streaks or anything that looked like they cleaned the floor in the bedroom? And wouldn't they just clean off Rudy's footprints too, fear of police tracing the DNA back to Rudy? It looks like they tried to clean nothing at all from Rudy, but if all 3 were in this together, wouldn't they be afraid that if Rudy got caught, he would tell on them?

 

[aa9511]

Amanda called her mother for advice. Her Mom told her to call the police. Is there anything odd or suspicious about this?

But I thought she called her mom before they broke the door open? If it was before the body was discovered, at that point, I don't see the urgency of running off and calling her mom. It would make more sense that the police did their walk-through, then told told Amanda and Filomina what the next steps were, and at that point Amanda called her mom.

 

[Footwarrior]

But I thought she called her mom before they broke the door open? If it was before the body was discovered, at that point, I don't see the urgency of running off and calling her mom. It would make more sense that the police did their walk-through, then told told Amanda and Filomina what the next steps were, and at that point Amanda called her mom.

This wasn't a script, it was real life. People don't always react the way you believe they should react looking back with 20-20 hindsight. Amanda reached a point where she was uncertain what she should do, so she called her Mother. It didn't require running off, she used her cell phone.

 

[aa9511]

A lot happened before Knox called her Mother that day. Knox found the front door to the cottage open, a broken window, signs of a burglary and blood. She had attempted to call her flatmate Meredith and got no answer. She had talked to flatmate Filomena on the phone. Filomena was so concerned she was on her way back to the cottage. Claiming that nothing had happened is simply a lie.

Questioning the time is rather odd. No good parent would object to a call from a child needing help and advice, even at an ungodly hour.

bbm

I may not have read the minute details of all the reports, but this point
Amanda and Raf have made crystal clear in every interview they do: That Amanda did not alert authorities when she first noticed the above things, because she didn't think it was a big deal and didn't think it was from a robbery. I have heard both Amanda and Raf say this. That she thought the blood on the faucet was not a big deal, it was just a few droplets, could have been from someone's nose or a simple cut. The blood on the bathmat, she thought that could have just been from a roomate's period, I guess maybe, according to her, someone's blood leaked? The open door, maybe she chalked that up to the wind or something. I did not hear her say anything about Filomina's bedroom, conveniently. However I heard Raf say that was the first thing he noticed when he walked into the house and alerted him that something was wrong. Hmmmm....little divergence in both of their stories right there. Amanda conveniently I guess did not notice the broken glass, etc..

So....Amanda herself has said she didn't think that a robbery had occurred or anything bad had occurred....so why would she have called her mom for advice about things she saw which she couldn't add up in her head accounted for anything unusual?

Also....if it was me, I would have called Raf before I called my mother, only b/c Raf was right there only minutes away, and my mother was thousands of miles away!! Doesn't that make more sense? Raf and she apparently spent every minute together from the time they met, they had just seen each other....by the time she got to the cottage it would only have been minutes since they last saw each other, when she was leaving, what an hour or so? Wouldn't it make sense you would call the MAN you were just with, who lives merely minutes away, and say hey, I saw these things what should I do? Instead she chooses to walk all the way back there instead of just calling him, and then calls her mom on the way? Not buying it.

 

[aa9511]

This wasn't a script, it was real life. People don't always react the way you believe they should react looking back with 20-20 hindsight. Amanda reached a point where she was uncertain what she should do, so she called her Mother. It didn't require running off, she used her cell phone.

She had Raf, her lover boy, right there with her and next to her. She also knew she had somewhere to go (Raf's place), unlike the other roommates. It's not like she was all alone. She seems like a pretty independent girl. Not buying it.

 

[aa9511]

Rose, do you believe that it's impossible for a young athletic man armed with a knife to rape and kill an unarmed woman without assistance?

That seems to be what the court is saying.

I think the point is that there were almost no defensive wounds on Meredith. Yes, it would be possible, but you can bet Meredith would have been fighting and clawing and at the very least shielding herself from the knife with one or both hands.

I'm wondering, do they know when the major cut to the neck artery occured? Because I'm thinking if a major artery was hit from the very beginning, then she would have gone unconscious and thus unable to fight back?

As far as Rudy not outing Raf and Amanda, what if there was another man (or two) with Rudy? So in that case, RS and Amanda are not involved, and Rudy came to the house with a couple of his guy friends. However, there are obviously no signs anywhere, as in DNA, footprints, handprints, or anyone else, so that is very unlikely.

 

[aa9511]

Regarding the bra clasp:

pg 142
http://knoxdnareport.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/translation-of-the-conti-vecchiotti-report2.pdf

Considering the mixture of several male contributors are present besides Raffaele Sollecito, if their DNA arrived in a way that is unrelated to the crime, how can one make the claim that Raffaele's DNA arrived differently?





http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3012025/

ETA: Btw, IIRC the dna of Meredith's other roommates was not taken but I might be mistaken..

Hmmm....so am I understanding correctly that they are trying to say that there were other (unidentifiable b/c of the DNA sample) men's DNA on the bra clasp....so would this be like lovers or something? They're trying to say that a few men touched that bra clasp and their DNA is on there?

But that would still not account for why RS's DNA is on there, as surely Meredith and RS had never been romantically involved and how would he have had the occasion to touch the bra clasp before (unless during the murder)?

 

[kemo]

Much is made of he "strange" behavior of AK and RS on the morning of Nov. 2nd leading right up to the event after the arrival of the Communications Police and finding MK's body. If there is anything that really seems "off the charts" unaccountable to me, it is the fact that AK finds a turd in the toilet in the second bathroom and is outraged and repulsed by it and mentions it to Filomina when she calls and to the Communication police when they are there but fails to do what would be the obvious: she doesn't FLUSH THE TOILET. The only reason I can see for this is that she is essentially PRESERVING EVIDENCE. I can see no other explaination.

 

[rose222]

Much is made of he "strange" behavior of AK and RS on the morning of Nov. 2nd leading right up to the event after the arrival of the Communications Police and finding MK's body. If there is anything that really seems "off the charts" unaccountable to me, it is the fact that AK finds a turd in the toilet in the second bathroom and is outraged and repulsed by it and mentions it to Filomina when she calls and to the Communication police when they are there but fails to do what would be the obvious: she doesn't FLUSH THE TOILET. The only reason I can see for this is that she is essentially PRESERVING EVIDENCE. I can see no other explaination.

Right. And she herself failed to flush the toilet sometimes. Meredith complained about it to her friend.

As a girl who is obsessed with cleanliness even I would be more concerned about the door being open, the blood etc. rather than the dirty toilet.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

i've read through everything i can and all the links people have provided so kindly in this thread that support both sides of the argument as to whether or not Amanda is involved. it is very much appreciated. i'm still on the fence over whether or not Amanda was involved. If this case happened in the USA and was brought to trial here with all the same evidence, same exact circumstances, etc, i would have to vote not guilty if i was a juror. i'm normally extremely pro prosecution but in this case i'm just not even 75% convinced Amanda was involved. i know thats not a very popular opinion but for me, i have seen enough reasonable doubt that i'm not convinced she was involved.

BBM:

:seeya: Hi Molly ... you might get splinters if you sit on that fence too long ... :floorlaugh:

As to your comment that IF this case happened in the USA, here is my :twocents:

IF this case happened in the US, I think a conviction would be a slam dunk ...

I said this before, but she is lucky she did not commit this crime in Maricopa County because with Juan Martinez as a prosecutor, she would definitely be sitting on death row !


It's not just the DNA evidence that supports Knox and Raf were present, it is the TOTALITY of the evidence, which IMO outweighs the DNA.

Too much "weight" IMO is given to DNA evidence :

One cannot ignore the cell phone records and computer records of Knox and Sollecito -- the "stories" given by both do NOT match up to the cell and computer records ...

One cannot ignore the "staged break-in" and the "clean-up of the cottage" ...

And one cannot ignore the FACT that Knox BLAMED an INNOCENT MAN for the murder of Meredith ! And when she blamed Mr. Lumumba, she IMPLICATED HERSELF !

:twocents: <modsnip>

:moo:

 

[dog.gone.cute]

:scared::scared::scared: Blown Margins !

:seeya: Can they be fixed ?

THANKS !

 

[rose222]

BBM:

:seeya: Hi Molly ... you might get splinters if you sit on that fence too long ... :floorlaugh:

As to your comment that IF this case happened in the USA, here is my :twocents:

IF this case happened in the US, I think a conviction would be a slam dunk ...

I said this before, but she is lucky she did not commit this crime in Maricopa County because with Juan Martinez as a prosecutor, she would definitely be sitting on death row !

It's not just the DNA evidence that supports Knox and Raf were present, it is the TOTALITY of the evidence, which IMO outweighs the DNA.

Too much "weight" IMO is given to DNA evidence :

One cannot ignore the cell phone records and computer records of Knox and Sollecito -- the "stories" given by both do NOT match up to the cell and computer records ...

One cannot ignore the "staged break-in" and the "clean-up of the cottage" ...

And one cannot ignore the FACT that Knox BLAMED an INNOCENT MAN for the murder of Meredith ! And when she blamed Mr. Lumumba, she IMPLICATED HERSELF !

:twocents: <modsnip>

:moo:

Juan would love it! Young, smug, morally bankrupt, cold murderer would shake like a Chihuahua if she were up against the great Juan!

I can picture JM saying 'Of course it's not her fault that she falsely accused Mr. Lumumba. It's not her fault, dontcha know? And it's not her fault that she couldn't keep her stories straight....':floorlaugh:

 

[Mollyandme]

BBM:

:seeya: Hi Molly ... you might get splinters if you sit on that fence too long ... :floorlaugh:

As to your comment that IF this case happened in the USA, here is my :twocents:

IF this case happened in the US, I think a conviction would be a slam dunk ...

I said this before, but she is lucky she did not commit this crime in Maricopa County because with Juan Martinez as a prosecutor, she would definitely be sitting on death row !


It's not just the DNA evidence that supports Knox and Raf were present, it is the TOTALITY of the evidence, which IMO outweighs the DNA.

Too much "weight" IMO is given to DNA evidence :

One cannot ignore the cell phone records and computer records of Knox and Sollecito -- the "stories" given by both do NOT match up to the cell and computer records ...

One cannot ignore the "staged break-in" and the "clean-up of the cottage" ...

And one cannot ignore the FACT that Knox BLAMED an INNOCENT MAN for the murder of Meredith ! And when she blamed Mr. Lumumba, she IMPLICATED HERSELF !

:twocents: <modsnip>

:moo:

you might be right about that if juan was the prosecutor, i think he'd be able to lay things out in a way that makes complete sense. and yea, i think i do have a splinter from sitting on the fence for too long, and i'm still there lol. i find it difficult bc so many of the sources are biased about this case so when i was researching it was hard. i guess i'll just go by what others have posted and lurk. the few links i posted were already found to be from a huge amanda supporter which i wasnt aware of, however i'm very happy another poster pointed it out to me

 

[otto]

Regarding the bra clasp:

pg 142
http://knoxdnareport.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/translation-of-the-conti-vecchiotti-report2.pdf

Considering the mixture of several male contributors are present besides Raffaele Sollecito, if their DNA arrived in a way that is unrelated to the crime, how can one make the claim that Raffaele's DNA arrived differently?





http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3012025/

ETA: Btw, IIRC the dna of Meredith's other roommates was not taken but I might be mistaken..

The quote you have selected was taken from the University specialist's report that was completed during the first appeal. The problem is that the appeal, and all conclusions related to the appeal, have been annulled.

Of significance in that report was the decision to not test the DNA that was found on the knife. That was considered to be a significant error and, as a result, this second appeal has made that a priority.

 

[otto]

The linked translation of Conti and Vechiotti document starts out as follows:



http://knoxdnareport.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/translation-of-the-conti-vecchiotti-report2.pdf

This is what the Supreme Court said about it:



http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=599; p 41

Essentially, Conti and Vechiotti did not do the job they were hired to do, and they appeared to be unaware of available methods for testing the evidence that they were required to analyze. They failed to do their jobs. Hellman was heavily criticized by the Supreme Court and his entire judgement was annulled.

 

[2door73chevy]

A couple of things:

The thong underwear buying is no big deal and as far as being sexy, don't some women wear them to hide panty lines?

More than one killer because of lack of defense wounds on Meredith...Could RG have knocked Meredith unconscious during the attack?

I'm on the fence but I'm leaning more towards AN and RS not being involved. The case is new to me so I'm still reading all the information.

Thanks to everyone for posting all the links to the case.

 

[otto]

A couple of things:

The thong underwear buying is no big deal and as far as being sexy, don't some women wear them to hide panty lines?

More than one killer because of lack of defense wounds on Meredith...Could RG have knocked Meredith unconscious during the attack?

I'm on the fence but I'm leaning more towards AN and RS not being involved. The case is new to me so I'm still reading all the information.

Thanks to everyone for posting all the links to the case.

Knox and Sollecito did very inappropriate things and made very inappropriate remarks immediately after Meredith was murdered.

They did go shopping for underwear two days after Meredith was murdered. While they were shopping, they were very affectionate and apparently were overheard making remarks about having sex after purchasing the new underwear. The point is not so much the type of underwear that was purchased, but the inappropriate behavior and remarks during the shopping trip. That struck people as highly inappropriate, or shocking, given that Knox claims that Meredith was "her friend". People have had trouble resolving the "she was my friend" comment with Knox's actions: canoodling in the lingerie department and publicly planning sex so soon after the murder. It resulted in people believing that Knox was emotionally disconnected from the murder.

Unfortunately, the discussion about the inappropriate behavior during the shopping trip usually devolves into a comment about they type of underwear that was purchased ... whereas that is not entirely the point that raises eyebrows.