AR - Josh Duggar Admits Molesting Girls As A Teenager - #3

[Montjoy]

I am so disturbed that the media and some of the public seem to equate the Ashley Madison scandal with the pedophile scandal. I do not care, nor do I think it is any of my business if, Josh has sought out consenting adults and cheated on this wife. That is between him, his wife, the other adults involved and God. And if doing that has kept him away from little kids, then I hope he keeps cheating!

I agree. I don't think that the molestation and the infidelity are being equated, though -- instead, I think that they're both being treated as evidence of the hypocrisy of a bunch of sanctimonious people, whose cultish religion sees fit to judge others as immoral based on sexual practices or proclivities. Josh in particular was a spokesman for an organization that was mainly involved in promoting hatred of those that (some) conservative Christians considered immoral. So, while the molestation and infidelity are being grouped together, I don't think that people are equating them, per se.

 

[gitana1]

Forgive the OT: I agree with the value of forgiveness and the gospel of love -- but talking about 'true Christians' reminds me of a logical fallacy known as the "No True Scotsman" fallacy --

"No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing").[2]"

Example:

"Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge."
Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

The essayist Spengler compared distinguishing between "mature" democracies, which never start wars, and "emerging democracies", which may start them, with the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. Spengler alleges that "political scientists" have attempted to save the "US academic dogma" that democracies never start wars from counterexamples by maintaining that no true democracy starts a war.[3]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Ha ha! Excellent post. I learned something!

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

I am so disturbed that the media and some of the public seem to equate the Ashley Madison scandal with the pedophile scandal. I do not care if Josh has sought out consenting adults and cheated on this wife. That is between him, his wife, the other adults involved and God. And if doing that has kept him away from little kids, then I hope he keeps cheating!

That is the biggest problems about “Christians” and their warped view of sexuality. They treat homosexuality, adultery and pedophile as if they are all equally bad. They are not. The first involves consenting adults and while there can be casual sex (as in hetero people too), there are many gay couples who have a lot of love, respect and commitment. I don’t see how two loving people can be considered sinful, not matter what their gender. The second, while it could be harmful to the spouse and even children of the marriage, it involves consenting adults who are making a choice. The last involves young children who have no say and are harmed both physically and mentally.

What's disturbing to me is the way Christians are bashed on this thread. You say Christians treat homosexuality, adultery and pedophilia all the same...not "some Christians" but Christians in general. That is not a true statement.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

What's disturbing to me is the way Christians are bashed on this thread. You say Christians treat homosexuality, adultery and pedophilia all the same...not "some Christians" but Christians in general. That is not a true statement.

For my part I have not observed Christians as a group being bashed. Just self-proclaimed Christians whose behaviors belie the beliefs they supposedly espouse as Christians.

Would you please quote a post that you think is general Christian bashing? Apart from the one that this is in response to, of course.

 

[gitana1]

As noted above the girls are raised to be stay at home moms. The thought of going outside of the home to seek education or employment is not in their vocabulary. And even if a girl was to have that desire, the boys are raised to be the head of the house which in their belief is in control of every move a wife or child makes. Neither a husband or a father would give permission for a young wife or daughter to further her education.

IIRC, in the msm earlier in the summer, it was reported the oldest Duggar daughter still at home, was going to approach her father about going to college. I have not heard anything else about this topic. IMO she is probably tired of being a "substitute" mother to all the siblings under her.

I agree wholeheartedly with the first paragraph but there is nothing in Jana's behavior to remotely suggest she is not toeing the party line. There is nothing to suggest Jana is remotely motivated to ask her parents about something like college. Something she's been taught all her life would be bad for her. She's a stay at home daughter and except for being farmed out now and then to help with her siblings' families or exept for doing volunteer work, that's all she would be allowed to do.

 

[Donjeta]

There were some reports before the scandals that said she was wanting to go to college. But that was according to "sources" so take it for whatever that's worth I guess.

http://www.ibtimes.com/jana-duggar-...al-amid-rumors-she-leaving-tlc-series-1900003

 

[SCHMAE]

This new revelation makes me think there is much more to the past revelation than what Josh confessed. He was still keeping secrets while begging forgiveness last month so what did he not say that he's not been caught for yet ?

 

[RickshawFan]

Yes. I actually think it is unlikely that he would've molested little girls and cheated if not for his background. But you're missing a huge aspect of that background. It's not just about being repressed sexually and having every act and thought controlled. Josh was raised in crazy-making dichotomous culture that is at once extremely repressive of any sexuality outside hetero marriage, including masturbation, looking with any kind of lust at anyone, discussing sex or the body with anyone your own age, seeing anyone besides yourself and babies naked, and even thinking any type of sexual thought when not married (young women are instructed not to even dream about romance or a future mate but to instead be a satsified stay at home daughter until God suddenly drops a mate into her lap - -through a mating arranged by her father), but which is also super, incredibly sex obsessed.

This is culture is hyper aware and obsessed with sex. Temptation, "defrauding" women, "unnatural" sex (gays), and the joys and constant discussion, insinuations and even demonstrations of hetero married sexuality (i.e. The Duggars constantly making out in front of their kids and referencing what they do in the bedroom "hey hey hey!" and "you don't get to do this until your married!") are major obsessive focuses of the culture.

And that's an incredible toxic brew- obsession and repression.

But the key element that when added makes for an even more incredibly toxic environment that virtually guarantees a high level of sexual abuse and dysfunction at all levels is the gender stratification. And the utter patriarchal domination. Women must submit to men. All are taught that the body cannot be trusted, that women and children's bodies are not their own, that men have a direct line from God and are thus "headships" of their wives and children, including adult unmarried daughters and that women are utterly at fault when their headship does something wrong including adultery, child abuse, sexual molestation, gay sex romps and domestic violence.

So imagine a boy being raised in that? Being inundated with sex, told he must repress his sexuality but also told that men control women and children's bodies and sexuality and are above women.

It certainly doesn't make me feel Josh is not to blame. Despite the above, he had choice. I think he is a selfish creep and has definite predatory leanings that he acted on as a teen. But I am agreeing with Scarlett that the culture and the parents bear some of the blame. The incidences of this kind of behavior are higher in cultures like this.

There are many cultures and religions in which the dichotomy we see here between males and females is a key feature. In many, it is more extreme than what the Duggars practice. Many of those cultures and religions are practiced in the USA. They don't create conditions where men are predatory with children, cheat on their wives, or look at .

We don't have fewer rapes than we used to in this country just because most people know a bit about sex, nor do we have fewer extramarital affairs, a lower incidence of incest....

This is about Josh and the Duggars, not lack of Sex Ed 101. It is about power.

Saying that the sexual repression in the Duggar family set the conditions for Josh's behavior—the felonious kind and the "sin" kind—endorses that familiar theme: men can't control their "urges" and suppression is a disaster. Then we're back to "Duggar-think".

The Duggars seem to believe that control over human desires and impulses is the solution to all that is wrong in their family, while at the same time subscribing to the notion that men's sexual needs have to be catered to because otherwise there'll be some sort of disaster. On what planet is that even rational?

This is about Josh and the Duggars and their habit of manipulating reality just the way they want to. They do it in the name of religion, but this is not religion. They are making up the rules as they go along! (In my childhood, we called this cheating). They superficially label an act a "sin" as a way to minimize unacceptable behaviors. Without the "sin" part, this kind of narcissism is the basis for many criminal behaviors.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Pedophiles and adulterers come in all religions and non religions. It's a warped human thing not a faith thing. JMO

I'm not sure why this thread looks more like an anti quiver/Christian thread than an anti pedophile/adulterer thread.

JMO

ETA: and I don't think his family should be blamed for his behavior.

 

[Paulas88]

I agree. I don't think that the molestation and the infidelity are being equated, though -- instead, I think that they're both being treated as evidence of the hypocrisy of a bunch of sanctimonious people, whose cultish religion sees fit to judge others as immoral based on sexual practices or proclivities. Josh in particular was a spokesman for an organization that was mainly involved in promoting hatred of those that (some) conservative Christians considered immoral. So, while the molestation and infidelity are being grouped together, I don't think that people are equating them, per se.

Exactly

 

[jjenny]

Pedophiles and adulterers come in all religions and non religions. It's a warped human thing not a faith thing. JMO

I'm not sure why this thread looks more like an anti quiver/Christian thread than an anti pedophile/adulterer thread.

JMO

ETA: and I don't think his family should be blamed for his behavior.

His parents were promoting their "superior" child rearing methods on TV. Certainly doesn't appear he turned out all that good (to put it mildly).

 

[CarolinaMoon]

I agree wholeheartedly with the first paragraph but there is nothing in Jana's behavior to remotely suggest she is not toeing the party line. There is nothing to suggest Jana is remotely motivated to ask her parents about something like college. Something she's been taught all her life would be bad for her. She's a stay at home daughter and except for being farmed out now and then to help with her siblings' families or exept for doing volunteer work, that's all she would be allowed to do.

Catching up on a week's worth of posts. Gitana, I recall, but don't have a link for any of this. So AFAIK, Jana wants to go to Bible College to study to be a teacher. She has asked her parents' permission and says she won't leave home without it.

On one update, IMHO, MD and JBD proudly announced that one of their sons (can't remember which) is going to Bible College to become a preacher. Mom and Dad are so proud of him!

As for Jana, she still can be teacher to all the younger children, so why bother with college? Get it? I sure hope she doesn't end up a spinster who goes from helping to "educate" her siblings to caring for her elderly parents.

 

[human]

There are many cultures and religions in which the dichotomy we see here between males and females is a key feature. In many, it is more extreme than what the Duggars practice. Many of those cultures and religions are practiced in the USA. They don't create conditions where men are predatory with children, cheat on their wives, or look at .

We don't have fewer rapes than we used to in this country just because most people know a bit about sex, nor do we have fewer extramarital affairs, a lower incidence of incest....

This is about Josh and the Duggars, not lack of Sex Ed 101. It is about power.

Saying that the sexual repression in the Duggar family set the conditions for Josh's behavior—the felonious kind and the "sin" kind—endorses that familiar theme: men can't control their "urges" and suppression is a disaster. Then we're back to "Duggar-think".

The Duggars seem to believe that control over human desires and impulses is the solution to all that is wrong in their family, while at the same time subscribing to the notion that men's sexual needs have to be catered to because otherwise there'll be some sort of disaster. On what planet is that even rational?

This is about Josh and the Duggars and their habit of manipulating reality just the way they want to. They do it in the name of religion, but this is not religion. They are making up the rules as they go along! (In my childhood, we called this cheating). They superficially label an act a "sin" as a way to minimize unacceptable behaviors. Without the "sin" part, this kind of narcissism is the basis for many criminal behaviors.

I am not exactly sure that it is true that the conditions don't spawn this behavior. In the book Princess about a Saudi American princess , the women were kept in their compounds and the men would fly off to Germany to have sex with young children.

And David Koresh was the sinful Jesus who would masturbate while giving his sermons. Then there are all of those extreme Mormon groups that seem to have their inappropriate issues.

I am not sure what concluson children raised to think that women are less than a man and have no rights can deduce on their own.

I think these cuts are filled with atrocities.

 

[Irisha]

The worst part is that Anna believes that she is to blame. These people are very much like fundie Islamists in their views of women. JMO

Anna didn't raise Josh, Jim Bob & Michelle did=FAIL. That's where the blame lies, not with Anna, who is suffering the most right now. Anna should <but won't> sue Josh for being a lying fraud, and make him sit on a blanket for a few years and not get off since he is forever useless to his family now. That should keep him out of trouble.:moo:

 

[Paulas88]

I love the idea human had, about Anna divorcing JD, and getting a spin off reality show of her own. "ANNA BREAKS AWAY" -or- "ANNA MEETS THE 21st CENTURY".
And JD gets a new Job too.... A STAR. YUCK!!!

 

[human]

I love the idea human had, about Anna divorcing JD, and getting a spin off reality show of her own. "ANNA BREAKS AWAY" -or- "ANNA MEETS THE 21st CENTURY".
And JD gets a new Job too.... A STAR. YUCK!!!

i only had the idea about Josh as a star. He already is. Just not getting paid for it.

The spin off show was not my idea but it is a good,one because maybe it would be educational in that people could be educated that women are not some object to be mamipulated and used.

 

[kimlynn]

There are many cultures and religions in which the dichotomy we see here between males and females is a key feature. In many, it is more extreme than what the Duggars practice. Many of those cultures and religions are practiced in the USA. They don't create conditions where men are predatory with children, cheat on their wives, or look at .

We don't have fewer rapes than we used to in this country just because most people know a bit about sex, nor do we have fewer extramarital affairs, a lower incidence of incest....

This is about Josh and the Duggars, not lack of Sex Ed 101. It is about power.

Saying that the sexual repression in the Duggar family set the conditions for Josh's behavior—the felonious kind and the "sin" kind—endorses that familiar theme: men can't control their "urges" and suppression is a disaster. Then we're back to "Duggar-think".

The Duggars seem to believe that control over human desires and impulses is the solution to all that is wrong in their family, while at the same time subscribing to the notion that men's sexual needs have to be catered to because otherwise there'll be some sort of disaster. On what planet is that even rational?

This is about Josh and the Duggars and their habit of manipulating reality just the way they want to. They do it in the name of religion, but this is not religion. They are making up the rules as they go along! (In my childhood, we called this cheating). They superficially label an act a "sin" as a way to minimize unacceptable behaviors. Without the "sin" part, this kind of narcissism is the basis for many criminal behaviors.

Great post. I'm glad you mentioned the thinking that men are unable to control their urges. I was going to bring that up the other day after a poster posted that JD was unable to grow up as a normal male but they (the poster) were not making excuses for him.
I don't know much about this family other than the recent news stories. Were there other male children in the family?
If so,they didn't have the need to fiddle with their siblings due to the way they were raised. At least as far as we know.
Same for the female children.
And what is this NIKE (sexual thoughts) thing that they yell? Does the word Nike have some sort of meaning or is it just an oddity from the family?
I like the idea of some sort of help group set up for the females raised in this cult. IMO

 

[TorisMom003]

Great post. I'm glad you mentioned the thinking that men are unable to control their urges. I was going to bring that up the other day after a poster posted that JD was unable to grow up as a normal male but they (the poster) were not making excuses for him.
I don't know much about this family other than the recent news stories. Were there other male children in the family?
If so,they didn't have the need to fiddle with their siblings due to the way they were raised. At least as far as we know.
Same for the female children.
And what is this NIKE (sexual thoughts) thing that they yell? Does the word Nike have some sort of meaning or is it just an oddity from the family?
I like the idea of some sort of help group set up for the females raised in this cult. IMO

They have numerous male children, 10 including Josh. So that makes 9 girls. 19 kids in all. Josh is the oldest of all the kids.

Nike is the key word for the males to look at their shoes instead of at the female that is "immodestly" dressed. It is the girls job to ensure that the boys don't see a woman dressed in a way that would tempt the boys. The girls also have to cover up women "immodestly" dressed on the tv for the same reason.

 

[kimlynn]

They have numerous male children, 10 including Josh. So that makes 9 girls. 19 kids in all. Josh is the oldest of all the kids.

Nike is the key word for the males to look at their shoes instead of at the female that is "immodestly" dressed. It is the girls job to ensure that the boys don't see a woman dressed in a way that would tempt the boys. The girls also have to cover up women "immodestly" dressed on the tv for the same reason.

Thank you. I was thinking of the famous Nike slogan of 'just do it'
In this case it means don't do it.
Warped beliefs about the responsibility of females. Scary. IMO

 

[1&2&3]

I agree wholeheartedly with the first paragraph but there is nothing in Jana's behavior to remotely suggest she is not toeing the party line. There is nothing to suggest Jana is remotely motivated to ask her parents about something like college. Something she's been taught all her life would be bad for her. She's a stay at home daughter and except for being farmed out now and then to help with her siblings' families or exept for doing volunteer work, that's all she would be allowed to do.

Well it may have all been rumor, who are we to know? Here is just one site of many that reported it back in March: okmagazine.com/.../jana-duggar-leaving-19-kids-and-counting-for-colle. I mentioned early summer, perhaps I was wrong on timing, or it was being reported again.