Are the Ramseys involved or not?

Are the Ramseys involved or not?

  • The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up

    Votes: 883 75.3%
  • The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up

    Votes: 291 24.8%

  • Total voters
    1,173
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I have a serious problem with any code that protects the identity of killers who are children to the point where they are untouchable and can get away with murder.

I don't believe Burke did it. There was no evidence of his being insanely jealous or intolerant or abusive in any way towards JonBenet. I don't believe he would have been able to construct and implement the strangulation device. I don't believe a child wrote that ransom note, either, certainly not a nine year old who most likely would not have seen the R rated movies that were plagarized in the note.
 
Nuisanceposter said:
I have a serious problem with any code that protects the identity of killers who are children to the point where they are untouchable and can get away with murder.

Did I read it or imagine that part of the law is the child's identity is protected & he/she is then put in a facility to help him/her? Is there any evidence that BR has been institutionalized at any point in his young life? That would be hard to conceal IMO.
 
hollyjokers said:
Did I read it or imagine that part of the law is the child's identity is protected & he/she is then put in a facility to help him/her? Is there any evidence that BR has been institutionalized at any point in his young life? That would be hard to conceal IMO.

hollyjokers,

Not really. Almost anything can be concealed when you have the law, the district attorney, the courts, and the media on your side.
 
BlueCrab said:
hollyjokers,

Not really. Almost anything can be concealed when you have the law, the district attorney, the courts, and the media on your side.
Pardon me but since when has the media been on the Ramsey's side.
 
asdasd said:
Pardon me but since when has the media been on the Ramsey's side.
Since at least 1998 when the first tracey documentary was made. Have you seen the Tracey documentaries? Have you seen the katie Couric + Lou Smit series? It was also pro-Ramsey.

What about jameson? She calls herself a journalist and she has always claimed to be pro-ramsey (although I would argue that her behaviour makes this questionable).
 
Nuisanceposter said:
I have a serious problem with any code that protects the identity of killers who are children to the point where they are untouchable and can get away with murder.

I don't believe Burke did it. There was no evidence of his being insanely jealous or intolerant or abusive in any way towards JonBenet. I don't believe he would have been able to construct and implement the strangulation device. I don't believe a child wrote that ransom note, either, certainly not a nine year old who most likely would not have seen the R rated movies that were plagarized in the note.
I agree with your position 100%. Further, since a juvenille would not have to face a huge punishment (I believe that I read that the max that would happen to him would be juvy home, although I may be incorrect in this point), I cannot understand why the family would have gone to such great lengths to cover it up. IF BR did it, knowing that he would only have to face a small penalty, then why risk everything by staging this elaborate cover up? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
 
CCKP said:
I agree with your position 100%. Further, since a juvenille would not have to face a huge punishment (I believe that I read that the max that would happen to him would be juvy home, although I may be incorrect in this point), I cannot understand why the family would have gone to such great lengths to cover it up. IF BR did it, knowing that he would only have to face a small penalty, then why risk everything by staging this elaborate cover up? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Why would they risk everything???
Because when all hell broke loose in the Ramsey huosehold that night, at that time, the Ramsey's had no idea what the law was concerning minors.
How were they to know that Burke would not be charged with murder. They didn't, so they did what they thought they had to do.
 
narlacat said:
Why would they risk everything???
Because when all hell broke loose in the Ramsey huosehold that night, at that time, the Ramsey's had no idea what the law was concerning minors.
How were they to know that Burke would not be charged with murder. They didn't, so they did what they thought they had to do.
I am not so sure about that. I mean, even before I had children I knew what the local laws were...not verbatim, but you hear things in the news or so on. They couldn't have been that stupid or that sheltered that they wouldnt have a clue. And did they not apparently call their lawyer in the middle of the night (I am not sure if that is fact or not), who would have advised them of what would happen to a 9 year old if he comitted murder?

The only other reasonable explanation to that would be that they were afraid of other things coming to light, ie sexual abuse.
 
Remember, though, they didn't always live in Colorado. I have no idea what the law states regarding children in murder cases in Illinois.
 
I don't think this deserves it's own thread so I am posting it here.

911 is for life and death emergencies. Reading The Death Of Innocense, Patsy refers to calling 911 over reporters, people she didn't know coming to her door and so on.
Big drama queen. Seems after the death of her child she would be able to diferentiate between 911 and the local police phone number.
 
Becba said:
I don't think this deserves it's own thread so I am posting it here.

911 is for life and death emergencies. Reading The Death Of Innocense, Patsy refers to calling 911 over reporters, people she didn't know coming to her door and so on.
Big drama queen. Seems after the death of her child she would be able to diferentiate between 911 and the local police phone number.

I believe Patsy feared all intruders after the death of Jonbenet, the man on her porch, the female painter, all were suspect in her eyes. This is the way a woman whose child was murdered would react. Calling 911 was the appropriate , necessary thing to do, imo.
 
Yeah she was petrified wasn't she?

That must have been why the alarms weren't used in the new house and they got broken into again.
 
Ivy said:
Hi, AutumnBorn. Why do you think Burke should be excluded? Dr. Cyril Wecht said there was nothing that was done to JonBenet that someone Burke's age at the time couldn't have done, and Dr. Michael Baden said that Burke needs to be looked at.

I'm convinced Burke did it. Nothing I've read or heard in all the years I've followed the case has changed my opinion on that.

IMO
Ivy, remember Burke could not have done it alone. The latch on the winecellar door was latched when officer French went down into the basment at 6.05 and Burke couldn't reach the latch. An adult must have at least helped him in the coverup.

I rule out the possibility that Burke brought a chair or something just to be able to latch this door as 'not reasonable' as the latch was pretty useless except to just keep children out of the winecellar.
 
Hi everyone, i'm new here and if this has been stated previously please forgive me but i haven't the time to read through this entire thread at the moment. Has anyone previously considered this scenario?

The Ramseys returned home and put JB to bed and they turned in also for it was late. Burke asked to stay up and play his new videos that he had received from Christmas and his parents agreed. Burke then called one of his friends to his house to play with him. JB woke up and was lurking around the boys eating some pineapples etc when the boys decided to start mimicking one of the games they were playing on JB? Things went horribly wrong and she was actually killed by accident by these boys. The Ramseys awoke to the letter on the stairs and upon reading it knew exactly what happened by the contents and wording of the letter. They then proceeded to cover up the murder to throw investigators away from Burke and the friend. IMO thats why the Ramseys look so guilty and evidence found on the tape etc was from when they found her and then needed to re-enact the murder by putting her back where the murder took place. They redressed her and put her favorite things around her etc. So i guess that i'm saying that Burke and a friend/classmate killed JB accidentally and John and Patsy did their best to cover it up for them. Does anyone know if there is evidence to shoot down my theory?
 
sissi said:
I believe Patsy feared all intruders after the death of Jonbenet, the man on her porch, the female painter, all were suspect in her eyes. This is the way a woman whose child was murdered would react. Calling 911 was the appropriate , necessary thing to do, imo.
Really? Patsy had no problem socially. I'm reminded of the story she tells in DOI of meeting a woman in Charlevoix and going to do watercolors with her, barely knowing who this woman was, only to find out later she was the wife of a tabloid reporter. Susan Stine had had a bad feeling from the get go, but Patsy reassured her it was okay.

That doesn't sound like a woman terrified of strangers and suspecting everyone.
 
Fox News channel now: famous lawyer John Kelly says Karr is not the guy,its all a big hoax,Lacy will wind up with egg on her face--says Karr's faux confession was just to draw more attention to the case--John kelly was the lawyer that convicted OJ in the civil trial
 
questionable,so little 9 year old burke invited a few friends over and,somehow,just happened to kill jon Benet--well,uh,would you mind telling us just how that can happen/ you know,its not every day that 9 year olds kill 6 yar olds--so your theory is absurd--sorry--btw, welcome to Websleuths
 
Okay, I am definitely on the fence. I couldn't vote at all because I'm really really unsure what I think. I find that a lot of the information people use to point to Ramsey guilt (most of the post tragedy behavioral stuff) is either debatable or potentially incorrect/twisted.
Quick example #1: JR makes arrangements to leave area by plane within 1/2 hour of discovering JBR's body. Seemingly a "guilty" behavior. Some reports indicate he was actually making plans to get his older daughter and son to Michigan where they were reportedly all supposed to meet before this tragedy occurred. A lot more innocent looking scenario. Now what's the "truth"? Was he really trying to get out of Dodge? Was he really trying to get his older son and daughter to Michigan? Is he a spoiled rich jerk who's used to luxury and figures it's no big deal to grieve at his second home that isn't a messed up crime scene? I think it's logical that a wealthy individual wouldn't see the impropriety of leaving town. He may have figured that the cops would handle the situation and that he'd be as accessible as needed. The guy was used to jetting around at the drop of a hat. It's not like he left the country. Most of us can't imagine doing something like that, but wealthy people think differently than people of average income. They really do. I am not trying to defend his behavior, but I am trying to point out that something many people interpret as guilty behavior, is really very debatable.

Quick example #2: JBR's grandmother is widely quoted as having said that JBR was "only a little bit molested", indicating to many, that the family knew of/was complacent about ongoing sexual abuse. Other reports indicate that she actually said something more like JBR "was molested to some extent" in reference to her understanding of the autopsy report. Glaringly different interpretations of a statement and what was or wasn't behind the statement.

When my friend was murdered, I know that a lot of the information regarding the circumstances of her death that we thought was truth, ended up being not correct. Misinformation came from many sources and was especially inaccurate in news reports and from people who were supposedly close to the case. In the end, sitting through her entire murder trial was the only way we were able to piece together what really happened to her.

There are probably thousands of similar details about this case that can be interpreted in one or both ways (Ramseys are guilty/not guilty). I'm not arguing any of these points either way. Just pointing out that many of the "indications of guilt" are debatable. I don't really know what's myth and what's truth at this point.

All that being said, I agree that the family or family friends can't be ruled out. I think the ransom note is a big clue and in my feverish brain, I always thought it was such a ridiculous piece of work that it had to have been written by either an intelligent but clueless teen or preteen, or by a lunatic. I lean towards believing it was the not the work of Patsy, although I concede there is a chance that she could have written it. I also think that the garotting, the hair, and the way JonBenet's body was handled after her death (the wiping down and redressing with the bizarre oversized panties especially) also reeks more of a lunatic or clueless teen, than of a mother who's killed her child.

As far as Karr is concerned, he seems absolutely capable of committing this crime. He has obvious pedophilic tendencies and an obvious obsession with JBR. But the huge hole is that the alibi provided by the family appears very solid to me, even without actual photographs. Logic tells me that the ex-wife especially stands to gain nothing by covering for him. I don't buy the argument that she is trying to avoid the stigma of being associated with JBR's killer. She would gain more by having him locked up for good on this murder charge than having him skulk around to cause trouble. Let's not forget that she'd also be subject to obstruction of justice charges if she were lying to protect him. I find his other family credible, but do agree that family may be more likely to cover for him than an ex-wife who can't stand him. Even though I think Karr fits the motive and means of this crime and I believe he wishes he was the perp, I don't think he had the opportunity to to commit the crime.

To me the biggest mystery in this case is that the crime has all the hallmarks of an inside job, yet the actual murder appears to have all the hallmarks of sexual sadism which is much more likely to have been committed by an intruder. I've always thought that the "staging" elements were more ritualistic in nature (expression of the dichotomous sadistic hatred/pedophilic "caring" ) rather than motivated by a desire to cover up. I've always leaned towards believing the crime was committed by someone known to the Ramseys, probably a teenage or very young adult male. I don't suspect Burke, as I think he is probably too young to have been sexually active. (I also do not think that the Grand Jury "solved the case" but can't indict because the victim is under 10. If the case was secretly solved, there is no way Karr would now be treated as a suspect, even tenuously.)

I've always been suspicious of JAR and feel that his alibi is potentially weaker than Karr's. My gut also tells me that if JAR is guilty, John and Patsy may have covered for him, but perhaps not as actively as many think. I tend to think they (John) may have found her body earlier in the morning, but I don't think they wrote the ransom note or staged the crime scene. My impression of John Ramsey is that he is an arrogant jerk. Patsy always struck me as a strong person who loved and doted on her little girl, but had wacky "Southern Belle/Pageant Queen" cultural issues. But I don't think they killed their daughter. I wouldn't be surprised if they knew or suspected who did, though. I also wouldn't be surprised if the murderer turned out to be a complete stranger.
 
Peter Hamilton said:
questionable,so little 9 year old burke invited a few friends over and,somehow,just happened to kill jon Benet--well,uh,would you mind telling us just how that can happen/ you know,its not every day that 9 year olds kill 6 yar olds--so your theory is absurd--sorry--btw, welcome to Websleuths
Yes absurd indeed, i don't know of any nine year olds that have committed murder, intentionally or otherwise. I can just in no way believe that John&Patsy killed their own child especially in such a brutal manner, that is simply unacceptable to me so i basically take them out of the scenario and direct my attention to whomever is left. The worst part about this case is that the real evidence was tampered with by John&Patsy so nothing does make sense when it comes to the actual crime that was committed? Right down to the fibers found in her panties and on the duct tape taken from her mouth and from the Ramseys clothing. IMO they found the child after reading the letter,(recognizing the words being used) took off the tape etc but then realized that they needed to keep her there in order to make it look like an intruder did it and not the son, so they then put the tape back on her mouth with their clothing fibers stuck to it. Same with the fibers in her panties. The statements given by the Ramseys cannot be taken as evidence such as the alarm being off or on or that Burke didn't own a specific shoe type etc. because imo the Ramseys tampered with everything to throw investigators off the trail? Most of the evidence in this case doesn't make any sense and or adds up. (it was tampered with) I can find no other reason for the Ramseys to look so darn guilty even though imo being totally innocent of this crime. :confused:
 
"Yeah she was petrified wasn't she? That must have been why the alarms weren't used in the new house and they got broken into again."

No kidding!

"I've always thought that the "staging" elements were more ritualistic in nature (expression of the dichotomous sadistic hatred/pedophilic "caring" ) rather than motivated by a desire to cover up."

Except there was nothing hateful or overly sadistic about it. And the body was treated with exceptional care: wrapped in a blanket with her favorite nightgown, etc.
 
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