Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[ShadyLadySleuth]

First off, i find it quite amusing that whenever someone kills another, when ever someone commits a crime, acts different, whatever the case. everyone thinks they have mental disorder. is it not possible that jodi and others in fact do not have disorders? after all, since she underwent a psychological evaluation, why is it not brought up in trial? neither by the defense, or the proscution. There has to be a reason for this, either her evaluation has part that work against the prosecution and parts work against her defense, or there is nothing really notable about her evaluation at all.

just because someone is capable of lying very well, is able to manipulate others, or to commit heinous acts does not mean whatsoever that they have any mental condition at all. In fact if i was to analyze anyone who posts on this forum, i bet i could come to the conclusion that you all have mental disorders. The fact is, with every disorder, absolutely everyone has those personality traits of those you consider to have such a disorder, even those you consider normal. So i completely disregard pretty much every comment in here that suggests something like, ohh she must have BPD, oh she is narcissist etc. because the fact is, we all have those traits, some more then others but more often then not, it is a learned aspect of their life.

i could grow up in a poor family, have 10 brothers and sisters. my parents might work constantly to put food on the table so there is not much time for cleaning. basically i could live in a pig sty from a very young age. when i am an adult, do you think i know any different? no because this was my life for many years, as a adult my place might be just as much of a pig sty as when i lived with my parents, it is a learned habit, a familiar enviroment. Some people might grow to hate that part of their life and be able to change it and live clean etc. but for most, they will just live how they know to live. If i could make a comparison, i could grow up, have a decent family but even they have some issues, nice home but am always beat up on by my siblings etc when i go to school i get teased, bullied, never had friends, am constantly in fights etc. by the time i am an adult, i am sure you could imagine that i would not have much social skills because i did not learn them, i would have a different way of thinking, because i did not learn off my peers how to be like everyone else and fit in, i could be sad, angry wondering why i deserved to be treated like this. later in life i could get into a relationship, but because i do not think, talk, act like every other person out there. i will grow to be different to others. my relationship would probably not be stable ( for argument purposes) i would be here wanting to be loved, deserved to be loved i might of found the person i love beyond anyone else, they are all that matters to me ( this is not obsession etc) i could give them my all, and if they used me, they treated me like crap half the time, i was the persons little secret. and as people do in relationships they fight, it gets worse and worse over time usually. the old arguments of few words turn into sparring matches, frustrations build up , it can get physical very quickly and easily. even the most mild and meek person could come to blows in this manner.

now, if i was in that situation, you have been used, abused and looked down upon most of your life, then the one person you love, the one person you gave your everything too, uses you, lies to you, abuses you etc.. eventually it will tip you over the edge.

i don't believe jodi's testimony, i believe she is lying. but this does not mean she has any disorder, it does not mean she is a wack job etc. you have to realise, her life is on the line.. who wouldn't lie to save their own life? as human beings, it is hard wired into out DNA, into every part of our being to survive... if someone tries to kill you, you can get great strength to defend yourself because you are trying to survive, you could kill, you could even eat another human, because you are trying to survive.

i think it is very possible, extremely like that she had this idea in her mind to kill travis, in her mind, her screwed her over, the one person who really meant something to her, used her for sex. she felt like his prostitute. what's the old saying " wam bam thank you maam"? this all she was to travis, well, thats what she felt. and when you are in a relationship, emotionally connected to someone else, how often do you hear people make the statements " when you're in it, its hard to see" or something like this? when your in a relationship with someone, or close to them etc, their actions, words etc impact on us. you could think one way about something while your with them, but months later with no contact, you might think hey.. what the hell, why would i think like this? seems a bit crazy. everyone would of experienced this at some point in their life, probably throughout their entire lives. when you are in a situation you often do not have the luxury to take a step back and think rationally.... it is extremely hard to do when you're emotionally involved, even if you dont feel emotional at the time.. your judgement is clouded, think of it as a form of rose color glasses.

anyway, back to jodi.. i would bet my last dollar that to this very day, she feels somewhat justified with what she did, although i do believe she is probably tormented inside because of it. this in itselt can cause you to lack emotional and especially be able to show it. this could explain her actions on the stand. she is expected to be emotional, but what if she blocks it out.. if she doesnt cry she is cold blooded, if she cries you think she is putting it on?

i am not defending her actions, although i do believe she felt somewhat justified, he paid the price for screwing her over.

a lot of people think she told no truth at all, i believe there is truth in every story. liars twist the truth for their own agenda, and when facing the death penalty, wouldn't you?.

i compare what she says now, to what she says in her previous interviews, especially the one when she talks about the intruders, as opposed to what she has said recently. It is very very difficult to lie, to make up stories and maintain that lie a long time. HOWEVER, it is not hard at all to twist a few truths and keep the main part the same as what happened in reality. this is what jodi is doing, only a few aspects of her story have changed from the intruder story, to what she says now. meaning, a lot of what she is saying, is the truth, she just changed certain parts so she does not look as bad, or is not incriminating herself in some way ( and i am aware she admitted to killing TA). the basic points of the story are the same in both of them, how TA was shot first, she fell to the ground beside bath tub and bumped her head, TA was on all fours next to her screaming in pain ( and it is very possible he did say F***** kill you B***, and i would too if someone shot me in the face). she said in current testimony that he was sorta over her, while she on the floor , and it could be perceived this way as he is right next to her on all floors... she said she got up and ran to the closet etc.

you have to look at this and know that what she has said is technically correct.. this is what happened. perhaps the roles were reversed in some situations, perhaps they weren't.

i believe, she was taking photos of TA in the shower, when he was sitting down in the shower i think they argued and she had a gun, as he got up he prob lunged at her, she fired hitting him in the brow etc, as he slammed into her (breaking her finger) and knocking her to the ground where she hits her head, he started screaming in pain, saying F**** kill you B***, and grabs on her clothes while she on her back, she gets up and runs thinking TA is after her ( which is why he took a long time getting there according to her) she runs into room where knife is, grabs it, runs into the closet and thru the other door leading into the bathroom. by this time travis is still in the bathroom , probably moved over near the sink, where she stabs him in the stomach, which is where he got his defensive wounds, he starts moving as quick as he can into the hall, while she chases after him stabbing him repeatedly in the back until he is down, she slices his throat, rolls him over and stabs him some more times in the chest and lower throat.

this is something she would NOT want jurors to know, instant guilty verdict, but it fits in more with the crime scene and forensic analysis, while fitting also in with the stories she has told now, and previously.

it is not about believing her no more, or whether she is lying, it is about finding the common ground of her stories and weighing it up with evidence from the scene of the crime.


thats my 2 cents anyway

I appreciate your very thoughtful post. I am always open to other's insights for consideration. You made many good points. Welcome to Websleuths!

 

[bladesama]

:twocents:


I agree with you. As I watched the verbal battle between JA and the prosecutor, I imagined Jodi thinking to herself: "He's not going to put words into MY mouth! The only words I speak are MY words." It must have really frustrated her when he demanded so many "YES" or "NO" anwers.

of course, he wants yes and no answers to try to prove his point which is different to her version, this is why she always says yes BUT, or no it is not like that etc.... if she doesn't do that, it could give a different meaning to everyone else.

it would be very frustrating, hence her pun at him that the closet is bigger then her jail cell.... i do not think this made her look very good though lol.

 

[pinkie60]

I read on wikipedia that Travis' dad (Gary Alexander) died on his 20th birthday, note the 20 Iris flowers JA sent to his paternal grandmother were sent on Travis' 30th birthday, weird, since it seems JA was into 'symbology'.

There was a greek goddess by the name of Iris.

Iris is the Greek goddess for the Messenger of Love, her sacred
flower is considered the symbol of communication and messages.
Greek men would often plant an iris on the graves of their beloved
women as a tribute to the goddess Iris, whose duty it was to
take the souls of women to the Elysian fields.

Elysian Fields: in Greek mythology, the final resting places of the souls of the heroic and the virtuous.

Other traits/symbols of the flower: The irises three main petals are symbolic for faith, valor, and wisdom, white ones are a symbol of purity.

I think there was a message in the number 20 and kind of flower sent. Maybe someone else can add to this or have some another theory. I don't think it was coincidence.

I gather we can add this to the list of things we will never know.:what:

interesting. i was wondering if the 29 knife wounds symbolized something like the number of trips they went on, one knife wound for each of his 29 years?

 

[lil_buddy]

RE: hypnosis

It is a well-known and accepted fact that you cannot get anyone to do anything that they could not be convinced to do in the fully conscious state.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I disagree with this. She seems to take a sick glee in recalling what she did. And she remembers everything (see her description of his death in the interrogation room.)

She has been caught sneaking peeks at the autopsy photos (just like Casey Anthony) and said to the detectives she wanted to see the graphic pics out of "morbid curiosity." That is not a normal reaction to learning there are graphic photos of a dead loved one available. It's the last thing I'd want to see.

It's possible what you say is true. I wasn't aware she's been caught sneaking peeks (or KC either) at the pictures that show the damage she admits she did. This thread is about psychology, not right or wrong, guilt or innocence.

Another thing I said is that I believe she may believe she is justified to have killed TA. That isn't normal either - that's the point.

It's not normal to kill another person.
We have a war going on in the streets in residential neighborhoods in Chicago. Children who are killing other children, with completely innocent ones being caught in the crossfire. Is that 'normal"? Tangent ~ but sometimes I'm confused as to why people get so enraged at specific perps but not over all the others (so as not to be able to have a conversation).

 

[Woe.be.gone]

What's creepy to me is her abuse claims that aren't backed up and seem to mirror Travis Alexander's abusive childhood. Fits with her becoming the "Mormon good wife" she thought he wanted. Forgive me, but its commonly referred to in pop culture as a "lady in the streets, but a freak in the sheets." It's like she absorbed TA and when she couldn't have him she consumed him, she became him. It's like a live praying mantis. I see narcissism to the extreme in this, she is not listening to her attorneys at all. I'm sure that her chemical levels have been checked since the state would not risk mistrial and DT would like the excuse of JA had mental issues. So I'm sure she's got a personality disorder, which will be spun into whatever- aliens? I'm sure she's got more lies- she's dangerous.

bbm ~ Who coined that phrase? Men? I find that offensive and, as others have said, has nothing to do with the murder per se. So a man who does the same sexual behaviors, is a gentleman in the streets, but a freak in the sheets? Who ever hears that said? These ideas are sexist and can't be used as arguments to suggested character flaws in women - has to be used for both genders if used at all.

The point of this thread is to learn about psychology and personality disorders and awareness of what's what that can make people dangerous to themselves and others. But personality disorders alone don't necessarily make people dangerous.

adding ~ personality disorders are behaviors that in the extreme have been given labels by other human beings in order to understand behaviors/personality in a nutshell (but everyone is different - so it can't really be done). As bladesama points out above, we all have learned traits, both good and bad, that annoy other people or get in our own way at times. When certain behaviors are extreme, they can lead us to having bigger problems. I can understand why people who have been given a certain label but are trying to learn about their behavior, cope with and get healthier, can be offended when they read that a person who has killed somebody MUST be lumped into their mental health pile.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Problem with that, aside from everyone's constitutional right, is that not everyone can be hypnotized.

If we are gonna throw out the constitution .... I'm all for water boarding and fingernail removal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Years ago I was selected, along with ten or twelve other people, to come down and sit in a chair to be hypnotized. The guy started to swing a pendulum thingy while he began talking - all of a sudden, he pointed to me and another person and sent us back to our seats in the audience. He could tell we weren't going under. I knew I wasn't but wasn't trying not to either. I don't think I believed I could though, so?

The rest of the people ended up putting books that weren't there on their heads, itching their noses and trying to stand up from their chairs but couldn't - stuff like that. It was funny.

 

[bladesama]

bbm ~ Who coined that phrase? Men? I find that offensive and, as others have said, has nothing to do with the murder per se. So a man who does the same sexual behaviors, is a gentleman in the streets, but a freak in the sheets? Who ever hears that said? These ideas are sexist and can't be used as arguments to suggested character flaws in women - has to be used for both genders if used at all.

The point of this thread is to learn about psychology and personality disorders and awareness of what's what that can make people dangerous to themselves and others. But personality disorders alone don't necessarily make people dangerous.

adding ~ personality disorders are behaviors that in the extreme have been given labels by other human beings in order to understand behaviors/personality in a nutshell (but everyone is different - so it can't really be done). As bladesama points out above, we all have learned traits, both good and bad, that annoy other people or get in our own way at times. When certain behaviors are extreme, they can lead us to having bigger problems. I can understand why people who have been given a certain label but are trying to learn about their behavior, cope with and get healthier, can be offended when they read that a person who has killed somebody MUST be lumped into their mental health pile.

exactly, and absolutely anyone of us could kill another, if we could justify that killing to ourselves. it does not mean we were cold blooded, or that we have a mental disorder etc merely because in our own minds, according to our own lives, personality, experiences, mood etc etc the list goes on, we were able to justify committing such act within ourselves.

if you cannot justify an act within yourself you cannot commit that act, but if you can find reason to justify an act it can be carried out whatever the circumstances.

 

[Nancy_Drew]

exactly, and absolutely anyone of us could kill another, if we could justify that killing to ourselves. it does not mean we were cold blooded, or that we have a mental disorder etc merely because in our own minds, according to our own lives, personality, experiences, mood etc etc the list goes on, we were able to justify committing such act within ourselves.

if you cannot justify an act within yourself you cannot commit that act, but if you can find reason to justify an act it can be carried out whatever the circumstances.

But wouldn't it be safe to say that someone who could justify a horrible act of murder within themselves, and then carry it out according to whatever their circumstances were, would be someone with some sort of personality problem?

 

[bladesama]

not at all, look at human history.

i suppose what you are saying though is that every soldier in the world today and previously, who had killed someone is a result of a personality problem?.

i would also like to suggest to you that in this jodi arias case, she is facing the death penalty. if she is convicted and sentenced to death, according to your theory the judge, jury and executioner have personality problem? society has a collective personality problem?

as i said, anyone can carry out an act of murder if they can justify the act within themselves, even within society. are they normal? or do they have personality problems?

 

[Tiger09]

bbm ~ Who coined that phrase? Men? I find that offensive and, as others have said, has nothing to do with the murder per se. So a man who does the same sexual behaviors, is a gentleman in the streets, but a freak in the sheets? Who ever hears that said? These ideas are sexist and can't be used as arguments to suggested character flaws in women - has to be used for both genders if used at all.

The point of this thread is to learn about psychology and personality disorders and awareness of what's what that can make people dangerous to themselves and others. But personality disorders alone don't necessarily make people dangerous.

adding ~ personality disorders are behaviors that in the extreme have been given labels by other human beings in order to understand behaviors/personality in a nutshell (but everyone is different - so it can't really be done). As bladesama points out above, we all have learned traits, both good and bad, that annoy other people or get in our own way at times. When certain behaviors are extreme, they can lead us to having bigger problems. I can understand why people who have been given a certain label but are trying to learn about their behavior, cope with and get healthier, can be offended when they read that a person who has killed somebody MUST be lumped into their mental health pile.

No, apologies if it came off as offensive- all the talk of how JA was a "dirty secret" and how TA was repentant of their sexual acts reminded me of the phrase. It's been used by men and women in pop culture- glamour magazine has had articles on it "Are you a lady in the streets and a freak in the streets?" It's used in songs as well. People dancing to Gangham Style- that's what Psy is singing. It means in public I want a lady, but in private can we do something sexual? Women can get sexual too. I'm a woman- I'm not a , killer , stalker, virgin, nor psycho. Oh nos! Sound the alarm! I posted that because the defense is trying to make JA act as though she has no sexuality. No, TA is hyper sexual- is JA ashamed of her sexuality? Why?

 

[Nancy_Drew]

not at all, look at human history.

i suppose what you are saying though is that every soldier in the world today and previously, who had killed someone is a result of a personality problem?.

i would also like to suggest to you that in this jodi arias case, she is facing the death penalty. if she is convicted and sentenced to death, according to your theory the judge, jury and executioner have personality problem? society has a collective personality problem?

as i said, anyone can carry out an act of murder if they can justify the act within themselves, even within society. are they normal? or do they have personality problems?

There is a difference between "murder" and "kill":

The definition of "murder" is- the unlawful killing of one human by
another, especially with premeditated malice.

The definition of "kill" is- to put to death, to deprive of life.

So, I was just saying that I thought that there would be a great likelihood of someone, who could justify the act of murder within themselves, as having some sort of personality problem....

 

[Woe.be.gone]

exactly, and absolutely anyone of us could kill another, if we could justify that killing to ourselves. it does not mean we were cold blooded, or that we have a mental disorder etc merely because in our own minds, according to our own lives, personality, experiences, mood etc etc the list goes on, we were able to justify committing such act within ourselves.

if you cannot justify an act within yourself you cannot commit that act, but if you can find reason to justify an act it can be carried out whatever the circumstances.

bbm ~ In regard to the bolded statement, I'm not certain that's true for all people.
In this case, hanging around together as long as they did when it resulted in the murder of one of them, indicates some kind of mental problem, in that, neither of them (especially JA in the end) could let go of the other.

Most people, at one time in their life, have been in a situation that involved being rejected or promises unkept, etc. Yet, relatively few kill the other person.

In a circumstance involving self defense where someone is in their own territory minding their own business, if given the chance, may be able to kill a person in order to get away from them before they are the one who is killed. This case is much more convoluted than that example imo.

not at all, look at human history.

i suppose what you are saying though is that every soldier in the world today and previously, who had killed someone is a result of a personality problem?.

i would also like to suggest to you that in this jodi arias case, she is facing the death penalty. if she is convicted and sentenced to death, according to your theory the judge, jury and executioner have personality problem? society has a collective personality problem?

as i said, anyone can carry out an act of murder if they can justify the act within themselves, even within society. are they normal? or do they have personality problems?

Unfortunately, the soldier is one group of people who, after they experience killing or witness it, end up with a personality problem - ie ptsd. Some of them probably join the Army with problems already in place and may be gung ho ready to kill types. The majority are men who, after they experience war, are never the same again.

I agree that throughout history mankind has demonstrated over and over again how violent they are/can be. It's more unusual to find this behavior in women but clearly it exists as many cases can be found but in no way come close in number to cases involving men.

We are supposed to be a civilized society yet segments of society obviously are not. Two words that come to my mind are emptiness or power for being at the root of a killing mentality.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

No, apologies if it came off as offensive- all the talk of how JA was a "dirty secret" and how TA was repentant of their sexual acts reminded me of the phrase. It's been used by men and women in pop culture- glamour magazine has had articles on it "Are you a lady in the streets and a freak in the streets?" It's used in songs as well. People dancing to Gangham Style- that's what Psy is singing. It means in public I want a lady, but in private can we do something sexual? Women can get sexual too. I'm a woman- I'm not a , killer , stalker, virgin, nor psycho. Oh nos! Sound the alarm! I posted that because the defense is trying to make JA act as though she has no sexuality. No, TA is hyper sexual- is JA ashamed of her sexuality? Why?

Oh, I see. What I meant is that it is offensive though (not you). Because really, what we always hear (and many times the reason men, or women, say they cheat) is because their main person - the one they can take home to mom - had become boring or same old, same old.

In this case, the way it comes off to me, is that JA isn't ashamed of her sexuality but that TA claimed to be ashamed of his behavior.:waitasec: Eventually he put JA down because of her part in their consensual activities, not only privately but publically too. I think that's when JA became livid, resentful and vengeful toward TA because she knew the behavior he was capable of too. Why should she be the only one with the bad reputation? If what I say is true, she really did feel he had betrayed her at the deepest level and that, he himself was a fraud; now, she is the one outted as a 'freak' and cast out of his fold. TA's religious pursuits had something to do with his trouble of reconciling his own behavior with his church rules. JA was simply a 'seeker' as we say in the Christian world; she was willing to convert for him.

One of TA's friends said in an interview, 'you can tell them by their fruits'. He stated this in a negative way regarding JA. In other words, she didn't possess the good or right fruit to live up to TA's expectations. Did she ever claim too? Anybody else have a problem with the fairness of TA's friend's remark? JA was TA's back door girl in more ways than one. Ya, I'd be insulted if I were her.

 

[Cate49]

bladesama I would like to respond to a few of your points. People kill people but for different reasons and some the same. My thoughts are to this specific case. Psyciatrists are used before trial to determine if a person is fit to stand trial. They may have identified what PD she has.
Here is my belief the truth is truth it does not vary. Therefore it should be easy to recall and/or to relay. Sure small changes mau occur but the core does not. Jodi has run the gamete in her wide told tales. She premedited Travis's murder by the detailed actions of her trip to Messa. IMHO believe she was their to see if Travis would include her in his trip. Finding he did not she carried through with murder and a litany of lies to follow. Traveling to another mans home to "makeout".Attending his memorial, sending grandmother flowers, calling detectives and friends. Making up scenarios to explain evidence.
To get back to back to the start of my post. The truth is the truth it does not vary. You can not dispute,test, manufacture truth. So, if this woman does not have a Mental disorder, and can commit this type of act. Then she is pure evil. Society needs to be grateful when people like Jodi are caught and punished. There should also be punishment for the shame and dishonor she has brought to Travis.

 

[Cate49]

Some of the greatest minds and the arts are of those that have struggled with mental health disorders.

 

[Tiger09]

Oh, I see. What I meant is that it is offensive though (not you). Because really, what we always hear (and many times the reason men, or women, say they cheat) is because their main person - the one they can take home to mom - had become boring or same old, same old.

In this case, the way it comes off to me, is that JA isn't ashamed of her sexuality but that TA claimed to be ashamed of his behavior.:waitasec: Eventually he put JA down because of her part in their consensual activities, not only privately but publically too. I think that's when JA became livid, resentful and vengeful toward TA because she knew the behavior he was capable of too. Why should she be the only one with the bad reputation? If what I say is true, she really did feel he had betrayed her at the deepest level and that, he himself was a fraud; now, she is the one outted as a 'freak' and cast out of his fold. TA's religious pursuits had something to do with his trouble of reconciling his own behavior with his church rules. JA was simply a 'seeker' as we say in the Christian world; she was willing to convert for him.

One of TA's friends said in an interview, 'you can tell them by their fruits'. He stated this in a negative way regarding JA. In other words, she didn't possess the good or right fruit to live up to TA's expectations. Did she ever claim too? Anybody else have a problem with the fairness of TA's friend's remark? JA was TA's back door girl in more ways than one. Ya, I'd be insulted if I were her.

There's a difference in owning your sexuality and using it as a weapon. JA, IMO, uses it as a weapon. She doesn't have to be all " yeah I'm a freak whatever". But don't cry rape when there are nude photos of you, sex tapes, and you drove states away to hook up with the dude. Don't act like Miss Frazzle from the Magic School Bus when I've seen you trying to rock the cheerleader look. I won't say TA was just a "dude", but he was not thinking with his brain. Sex releases endorphins and JA had him hooked. If she can call him abusive, I'm calling her a drug dealer. Sounds stupid, right? JA is manipulative and is still manipulating from behind bars. Her murder of TA reminds me of Ted Bundy almost. It's creepy and sick. Just like Bundy, she can't take responsibility.

 

[Nancy_Drew]

Some of the greatest minds in the arts are of those that have struggled with mental health disorders.

As a mom of a special needs child I can attest to this...it is amazing how brilliantly creative they are.

 

[Gecko100]

I agree that Jodi butchered Travis savagely.
The difficulty I have with labelling her with any kind of PD (as yet), is because she has maintained reasonably long term relationships, and has no record of prior offending.
My own take at the moment is that these were two very damaged people, both of them with narcissistic wounding. It attracted them to each other, (the amazing 'Attraction Theory' lol), but seriously it is well recognised in therapy that we attract people based on unfinished business from our childhood.
The problems start when the 'business' can't be finished because the person we choose is likely to perpetrate the same wounding we experienced in childhood.
So for Travis, Jodi likely represented one of his parental figures, we know they were both drug addicted, and similar to any type of addiction (such as sexual addiction for instance). Any 'addiction' for Travis is not going to sit well.
Ultimately, their relationship was doomed to fail, because neither of them got their simmering childhood needs met. Of course I am speculating here, because we appear to know very little about Jodi's childhood, but it might suggest a sexual abuse past IDK...
What I see in Jodi, is a deep narcissistic wound and dissociation from reality, maybe PTSD or Complex PTSD regarding childhood abuse?
Complex PTSD can mimic BPD.
Travis wasn't responsible for the initial wounding but he certainly didn't help matters much. Her perceptions of his 'abuse' might be altered who knows? She was certainly insulted and rejected by him and his friends, and continues to be.
They both seem to have dealt with their baggage in different ways, internalising and externalising.
I'm just putting another scenario out there - to me they both look like the opposites of the wounded narcissistic coin.
Prepared to be dissuaded, but don't throw things at me please.
(Ducking for cover)

 

[Tiger09]

I can see TA seeing some of his mom in JA and that making it hard to say no and/or run away. People say it with no qualms for women, so why not a man? The mind is very complex and you never know what's lurking there in the subconscious. Sadly, just like his mom hurt him, so did JA. Now he's screaming for justice again and hopefully the jury hears him.