Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

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  • #81
Ooooh SamariPie, would love to pick your brain!

What is the deal with JA's religiosity? Is she using religion as a cover for her lack of empathy (ie, being certain that TA"'forgives her" from the great beyond, where he is certainly "better off", etc?)

Hi, BD1--

You might find JA's blog enlightening (http://jodiarias.blogspot.com). After reading (well, mostly scanning) her posts, I came away with the sense that she's an experimental spiritualist of sorts--interested in religions/spirituality in general, the occult, and I gather she has quite a few self-help books on her shelf. So I think she was willing to try anything to get closer to Travis, i.e. adopting Mormonism, as she was not deeply religious before as far as subscribing to a specific doctrine. She probably genuinely thinks that TA forgives her, and probably does believe in a higher power. I think it helps to assuage her guilt to think of Travis as forgiving her. Just my .02!
 
  • #82
Judge needs to rain in JA. She is the argumentative with JM.
 
  • #83
I'm having a problem accepting that Travis was so virginal while, at the same time, he could come up with so many perverse fantasies all the time claiming he was on a journey to become a more spiritual man. , it takes two ...sometimes a person says 'no'. So if it wasn't in him to be the way he was in the first place, how can we blame her for 'making' him that way? Was she willing? yes. Did she make him? no. Why was he so verbally abusive toward her versus firmly cutting off the relationship? Jodi was the seeker and T was claiming to be a leader.

There are some who still feel that, yes, she is a consummate liar, and she did murder him with premeditation, and she did kill him with unusual cruelty, but still...why would a man like Travis stay with such an evil woman?

Initially, she fooled him into believing she was a nice person, and he seriously considered marrying her. Over time, she couldn't keep up the pretense (we get a small sense of that via JM's adroit cross-examination of her). But she continued to be hellbent on marrying him and having 20 little Irises and Hinckleys with him. He was her ticket to financial stability, respectability, etc., and her bioclock was ticking, and she felt she owned him.

Perhaps it was a case of the pusher and the cocaine addict--the moment the addict takes steps toward recovery and away from needing the product, the pusher intervenes, spinning the customer around and reeling him back in: giving him even more potent stuff for free, or forcibly exposing him to the drug, or whatever other method a psychopath would use unhesitatingly. Her unexpected apperances in his home were one of her ways of administering the drug while he was trying to be in recovery. And like other drug dealers, it was essential that she keep less destructive alternatives (non-psycho women) away from him.

I think Dr. Drew believes in the above sort of theory, based on Travis's parents' drug addiction history.

(As to his harsh words to her, they were more than deserved IMO, and his sexual behavior, under her influence, became like that of an average non-Mormon. That she viewed herself as a seeker and he a leader, doesn't make her less of a perp nor him less of a victim. She sought after control of him, and he sought after self-leadership, which, tragically, he achieved at the very moment he decided he'd leave her no matter what.)

And there is another possibility. The perp has repeatedly pinocchioed that this or that person threatened to kill "my entire family." I bet she was the one subtly threatening to kill his. Today it's, ooops, your [coffee cup? car? camera? customers list?...quien sabe???] tomorrow it could be...oops, your Ming vase, your career, your leadership in the Church, your house...your siblings who never liked me...you...

My guess is the perp did both things, using (1) the carrot: free drug on a variable interval schedule of reinforcement, and (2) the stick: take the drug, and each time you fail to take it as I direct, you will lose something, and each time, that something I destroy will be more valuable to you.

Then the time came when the pusher realized she was going to lose this customer no matter what she did: Travis was wholly determined to drop the habit. I believe she was determined to kill him regardless of whether he took her to Cancun. The Cancun trip would have merely been, in her mind, an easier and more pleasant venue for the murder. Kill him in Mexico, where, she may have thought, she could more easily blame it on random violence from other drug dealers. But he even refused to comply, even for one last time. Off with his head.

Next in line: Matt.
 
  • #84
This question has nothing to do with whether or not JA deserves to be punished for her grievous crime as clearly she does. But, is a borderline personality aware that that's what they are? I mean, do they have any control over their character? Does a psychopath?

This question ties in with understanding mental illness as awareness of it has been promoted in the media a lot lately. It seems there's sympathy when one kills theirself but not when one kills another human being. That's understandable but any killing action creates grief, sadness and destruction.

Since we know these types of people exist, we can teach other people what to look for/be aware of as far as behaviors go when they meet new people whether it be at college, church or the workplace. Many of the mental illness terms were foreign to me prior to my exposure to WS.

Knowledge about these illnesses/conditions might help people identify odd behaviors earlier even when they are couched behind claims of friendship/goodwill. Plus it's dangerous to jump into a relationship too quickly when you know nothing about a person's history/background.

Oprah - my other psychiatrist, lol! - has a saying that I believe Maya Angelou told her. It is, "when someone shows you who they are,
believe them."
 
  • #85
  • #86
My guess is that they have a problem with peeping because it's associated with peeping toms who are, of course, stalkerish and perverted.

I'm sensing JA became that way - stalkerish - when she was losing her grip on Travis.
I agree, the defense doesn't want her characterized that way. She does seem to demonstrate a great deal of unabashed brazen behavior.

Most of us don't go where we know we're not wanted. :waitasec:
 
  • #87
  • #88
New day of questioning and JA is back to being mouthy and aversive. So many answers from JA using language that does not pin her down. This is behavior that we saw the first day of questioning.

Yes, she's trying to save her own arse. What is he expecting her to say? We already know she lies comfortably. The whole line of questioning is crazy because we already know she killed him because she was a woman who feels scorned and rejected. That's it in a nutshell imo.

It's similar to men who kill their wives the day the divorce is filed for or is to become final or she was taking their children to live elsewhere, etc.
 
  • #89
Dual diagnoses people sometimes are evil. There is not much to say when you mix a Borderline with Malignant Narcissim other than that. If anyone ever met one or had to work in a facility with them, you would never be the same. It is a life changing experience. They are masters at the english language and will use your words to kill you, or cause harm to you in other ways.

You will experience the wonder of perhaps you are insane. They are that good and that is exaclty what happened to Travis. He began to doubt himself and begn to wonder if he could ever get rid of her. He knew the problem but had no idea how to deal with it. He became confused and tried to appease her so she wouldn't harm her. Take note that is what she is telling you but it is not accurate. He was the one appeasing her. At some level, he knew it was a life saving gesture to always please her.

I had to work around 14 women with this diagnosis....and I didn't lst 3 months. They sucked everything out of me and I will never choose to work in mental health again. It is impossible for me to explain their evil ways. It has been almost 10 years and I haven't recovered yet. I shiver at the thought of being around a Borderline and narcissistic. I can spot them now though....thank heavens!

I have heard that Borderline Narcissists are among the worst people to deal with.
 
  • #90
Man, I'm posting a book, but one thing I wonder about might help explain Travis.

He's the type to try to stay friends with everyone he ever met. That gets harder as you age, usually, but it sounds like he hung around a group of people who could stay very civil after break-ups or with different business views, etc.

I think he probably had religious reasons, too, for not wanting to just completely cut off a person in his life. If someone wants to talk to you and you are this sort of person, what do you do? Not even take a phone call ever again? I think the idea of harshly drawing a line with people was very foreign to him. People he had loved became family, for better or worse :(

BBM ~ Yes, that's what one should do. Cut it off period. No means no.
That said, if it's too late and the person is a true stalker, they'll try to or kill you anyway.
 
  • #91
  • #92
Does anyone know what Travis meant when he warned Jodi to be "careful, or you'll turn out like your mother"? I must have missed it. I know that Jodi was offended that he would say such a thing.

I have been noticing JA's mom and aunt smirking a lot from the gallery during the cross examination. Must be where she gets it from.

Also noticed that JA's siblings are usually not in court, and I've only seen her dad one time. Are we to infer that they aren't strong supporters of hers? I would be interested to hear from them after this is all over.
 
  • #93
Does anyone know what Travis meant when he warned Jodi to be "careful, or you'll turn out like your mother"? I must have missed it. I know that Jodi was offended that he would say such a thing.

I don't think we will ever know the basis of this; it seems JA talked s**t about her family to TA.
 
  • #94
Yesterday I had a thought that I'd like to put out. If I was on trial for this murder and had family members on both sides all traumatized. I would just plead even to pre-meditated murder. Why? Just to spare both families from the airing of explicit sex tapes and grisly pictures. If she had approached this way the court might find some redeeming quality to save her life. What ever the psychological diagnosis of this woman she is gaining pleasure from this spectacle. Not sure what the DSM classification. This brain and or soul is not wired right. This behavior will continue and flourish in the prison system. We have already witnessed her manipulation of people from her jail cell prior + during trial. JMO
 
  • #95
Hi. I'm behind on the case with both reading and listening to the trial.
Yesterday I heard an interview with a woman who knew both TA and JA because she, Julie somebody, and TA were involved in a common business.
She appeared on NG. She spoke about JA's 'affect' which is something I had been wondering about as I noticed it is strange. Shoot, I can't remember her specific words but they described JA as having a sort of eerie presence as one who is there (present) but not completely there - 'ghostly' or something like that.

She went on to say something about witchcraft, that JA may have cast a spell on TA, and that she herself (Julie) is an intuitive and had warned Travis that she sensed he had a dark light but also a bright light - this is when she began to lose me. Anyway ~

Julie relayed that after TA and JA had broken up, while TA was taking the stage to make a presentation, JA all dreamy like said to her, 'isn't he wonderful, he completely changed my life' - something like that. Julie said that JA would often be standing around - everywhere or anywhere - just observing things with a kind of vacant expression on her face. I'm inserting words here - later I'll try to bring forward the transcript from NG.

Here's info about what types of 'affect' people can possess.

Blunted affect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Usually when peep's emotions are out of whack with situations, we notice there's something different about them. Since there's such a wide range of 'normal' we can't draw any conclusions about a person from this affect characteristic alone though.
 
  • #96
I have seen a lot of comments about JA demeanor on the stand. Smiling, laughing and crying. Some say fake, sometimes seemingly inappropriately timed. It seems to me that she is responding to her verbal combat with JM. When she thinks she got over on him she smiles. When she thinks she really made him look bad she actually laughed. And when he seemed to verbally back her into a corner and make her look bad, she cries. I think the emotions are for herself, not her victim, that's why they sometimes seem inappropriate. Just my observations.
 
  • #97
Mr.Pizza I think you may be right about Jodi smiling when she thinks she has one upped JM. Her smiling is far more of an actual response than crying. Her crying is a forced response. Part of the smiling looks to be enjoyment from the audio sexual portions. JMO
 
  • #98
I have bpd.

But, is a borderline personality aware that that's what they are?

I'll answer your question like this.. does a person with cancer know they have cancer if they haven't been diagnosed. They may suspect something is wrong with them, they may suspect they have kidney cancer, and then go to the doctor and be diagnosed with intestinal cancer. We are the same. I would say the majority of us know something is wrong with our personality, but until it's diagnosed it's a question.

I think what your trying to ask is are we aware that we have a problem, and do we see the problem, and the answer is we do. At least the overwhelming majority of us do.


I mean, do they have any control over their character?

In many instances we don't, but people here and elsewhere misunderstand what we are and how we function. The people that talk about how evil we are, are usually the ones that have had a bad experience of being in a relationship with one us. We can be very difficult people to be around, because we are emotionally draining. We are NOT evil. We know right from wrong, and we have the ability to empathize. We want people to like us and when a friendship/relationship ends we are more likely to hurt ourselves rather than another person.

We act the way we do, because of trauma that occurred at some point during childhood, and we learned dysfunctional ways in which to cope. There are relatively newer therapies like Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) which is relatively successful.

We are difficult to treat, and there are a lot of therapist that won't see us because of that. This mindset though is becoming outdated with new therapies such as dbt, mbt, and schema. None of these were around prior to 2000, and it can still be difficult to get into one of these therapy programs.

Does a psychopath?

I would say some have the ability to control and others do not. Regardless, neither would have remorse. A borderline would. Also, if I recall she left his residence and went to Utah and carried on with her weekend.. That is more inline with a psychopath then a borderline. A borderline would more likely become paranoid <-- don't freak out over that word. It would probably be noticeable that something wasn't quite right with our demeanor. You'd be able to tell something was bothering us.

All psychopaths have ASPD, not all ASPD's are psychopaths.

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

What this means is relationships with us are going to be emotionally draining, and a roller coaster ride. A lot of this is brought on by our fear of abandonment. When times are good we idealize you and being with you, and when you piss us off we devalue you. That is why it's emotionally draining.. we love you, we hate you, we love you, we hate you etc.

In regards to self image... many of us don't have a clear picture of who we are as a person. for ie. if you were asked to describe the real you it probably wouldn't be a problem.. I can't do that, because I don't have a true sense of self.

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. [Not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]

Another way to put this is we become extremely needy and clingy which then usually manifests what we don't want. Abandonment!

A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.

It's what I described above. Intense idealization = you're the greatest person alive... Intense devaluation = we hate you, and want nothing to do with you.

This is often referred to as splitting.

Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.

described above

Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, promiscuous sex, eating disorders, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). [Again, not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]

Something that can harm us, NOT you.

Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.

Harm that is directed towards us, NOT you. Although, this is used for manipulation. For ie. If you don't talk to me I'm going to kill myself.

Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

Chronic feelings of emptiness.

Is what it is..

Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).

Pretty much what it says, except any harm is more than likely going to be directed towards ourselves as opposed to someone else. Recurrent physical fights would be more uncommon then common.

Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

She went to Utah, and carried on with her weekend. If she were borderline it's likely she'd be having a lot of paranoid ideation..



My personal feeling is she has traits of ASPD, HPD, and NPD.

I'm sure there are people with bpd that harm or kill others, but I'm also sure there are people without any kind of mental illness that harm or kill others.


Being fearful that I'm going to kill you is like me being fearful you're going to kill me.
 
  • #99
Ricochet how very brave of you to disclose that you are BPD. You have also provided the WS group clarity of the disorder as well as current treatments. I hope that you continue to post and inform us from personal experience.
 
  • #100
I thought this information was so interesting...I cut and pasted what I found the most interesting. A lot of it is from a book called "The Sociopath Nextdoor" written by Martha Stout. The rest of the info is from a book used for clinical diagnosing personality disorders.

**********


"Although not all narcissists are sociopaths, all sociopaths are narcissists" (Stout 2010)

Sociopaths are often unable to control their behavior and their expressions of annoyance, irritability and threats when faced with situations not appealing to them and they often tend to resort to threats, aggression and verbal abuse.

People suffering from Sociopathic disorders tend to be superficially charming. They also tend to display behavior which include manipulation of people around them, desire to be in control of everything and everyone around them that usually leads to grave consequences and shallow emotions.

Promiscuous sexual behavior- A variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.

Pathological lying- can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.

Parasitic lifestyle- An intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.

Criminal versatility- A diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes. (Hare 2011).

Behaves arrogantly and haughtily-Feels superior, omnipotent, omniscient, invincible, immune, “above the law”, and omnipresent (magical thinking). Rages when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted by people he or she considers inferior to him or her and unworthy (http://samvak.tripod.com).

Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion;

Constantly envious of others and seeks to hurt or destroy the objects of his or her frustration. Suffers from persecutory (paranoid) delusions as he or she believes that they feel the same about him or her and are likely to act similarly

In addition to the above traits, the biggest trait (or magic trick as I like to call it) that makes narcissistic sociopaths so dangerous and effective is their ability to go unnoticed by the rest of us. They can do this, because they are good at pretending (lying) and wearing many masks (again, lying). Simply put, they lie to themselves and everyone else. They lie so much that some of them are convinced of their own lies, which is where evil is born.

SOCIOPATH TRAITS

Displays heightened levels of deceitfulness in dealings with others, which involves lying, conning others without remorse, or even using aliases

Makes excuses or changes subject when caught in a lie

When questioned goes around the question, answering it in a way that doesn’t really answer it

Inability to abide by the social norms and thus violating law

Ability to understand rules & laws and judging them as a part of “the game”, but no ability for empathy or emotional understanding behind the rules

Displays aggressiveness and often tends to get into assaults and physical fights

Displays complete lack of empathy for others and their situation for which they are responsible

Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Displays no feelings or shallow feelings

Displays impulsive behavior which is indicated by the inability to plan for the future

Displays no concern for safety of others around them or self

Inability to sustain a consistent behavior that stems mainly from irresponsibility especially at work place or in other dealings

Displays promiscuous behavior


Research has revealed that since a sociopath never conforms to the rules of the society, he or she is not bothered about the consequences of his or her actions. Such people at times are also able to inspire like minded people. Some of the other traits that are common in antisocial people are that they are usually intelligent and have a superficial charm and they are able to attain success using unscrupulous methods. Thus they can also never learn from their own mistakes and they do not hesitate to indulge in certain activities that are considered immoral and taboo by the society.


NARCISSISTIC SOCIOPATH

Narcissistic sociopaths often tend to be highly manipulative and without any shred of remorse for their actions, even if their actions have harmed others who are close to them or their family members. There is nothing that can stop a narcissistic sociopath from achieving his goals. He makes use of all his charm which is highly superficial and intellect in order to attain his goals by any means possible. Such people often think that they are above all and they do not really care if anyone disagrees with them.


PSYCHOPATH VS SOCIOPATH

Many a time people tend to get confused between a psychopath and a sociopath. Though psychopathy is not a disorder that is formally recognized, it is more or less considered to be a form of antisocial personality disorder. People considered to be psychopaths are often paranoid and suspicious and the implications of this paranoia tend to be severe, with psychopaths interpreting all aggressive behavior against them as unjust.

Usually psychopaths are organized and they can have normal relationships and they are successful career wise too. These people place a lot of emphasis on planning, especially when planning to commit a crime, they tend to plan for years. However when it comes to sociopaths, they are incapable of maintaining relationships, jobs and they are highly disorganized and erratic. As they have no respect for social norm, they do not hesitate to physically or verbally abuse their victims.


THE COMMON SOCIOPATH

Sometimes called subcultural delinquents, this is the main species of the largest genus of antisocial personalities and, because of the rising incidence of incompetent parenting, they are increasing in number. They have a weak and unelaborated conscience, are not shamed by much of what would shame you and me. They have a weak future perspective because they have grown up under circumstances in which the future was unpredictable and only the pleasures and pains directly at hand could be relied on. They take pride in rule breaking rather than in rule observance and arc like feral children grown up, gratifying impulses of the moment, disinterested in long-term goals. They arc the natural result of weak parental bonding, weak parental control, and bad parental example. Most commonly they also display the effects of being turned loose in the streets to run with other sociopathic children where they assimilate the atavistic social structure of the street or of the adolescent gang. These individuals are feral creatures, undomesticated predators, stowaways on our communal voyage who have never signed the Social Contract.

THE ALIENATED SOCIOPATH

The Alienated Sociopath: The Cheated

Freud speaks somewhere about the individual who feels disadvantaged by appearance or physical disability, by social or class origin, minority status, or in some other way and who rationalizes his failure to follow the social rules on the grounds that, having been thus cheated at the outset, those rules do not apply to him. It is an interesting and important fact that most of the diverse criminal types suggested here do tend to justify their conduct in one way or another, at least to themselves.

COVETOUS SOCIOPATH, PSYCHOPATH, ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY TYPE:

Feels deliberately deprived & denied, rapacious, very greedy, jelous, envoues, begrudging, endlessly yearning, seeks retribution. Finds pleasure in actual taking more than having.

REPUTATION DEFENDING/ NARCISSISTIC SOCIOPATH, PSYCHOPATH, ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY TYPE:

Defends his reputation of unflawed, the one with courage, unbreakable, dominant, undefeatable, formidable, untouchable; furious/relentless when status in question, overreacts to little things.
 
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